Curse

Jackell · Jun 13, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

The way I see it working, say your a just bought the game n00b, you create a pvp only character, either from the templates they have, or your own custom, as I think that the skills on the base templates should already be unlocked for pvp only characters to allow some variation. Then, you go and fight in the 4 on 4 arena's. Everytime someone on the other team dies, you get a skill point that you can use to unlock a skill at a pvp trainer for the pvp only characters. Some of the more powerful skills might take 3 or 4 skill points, while the base ones require one. That's 4, 5, or 6 new skills per fight (depending on the rezzing situation of the other team), and if your behind everyone else, all you really need is one good arena run with a good team to catch up.

Maybe 6 or 7 points for elites, and you can salvage runes and item upgrades from defeated opponents (they don't actually loose the item or rune, but you gain what they had)

Yeah, the system could be easily exploited, but even if it is, you'd still only be a day or two behind them.

Zaklex · Jun 13, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Another point to make, the HoH is not the end-game PvP the PvP'ers are working towards, it's the GvsG ladder, that is why they want to be able to have everything unlocked, to counter the counters.

The top level PvP'ers need to be agle to be diverse to fill in any gaps that your team might require, depending on who's available to play on any given date/time. Without access to everything, you can then tweak that build by just changing out one skill.

Sekkira · Jun 14, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

I'd be for such a system if, for instance, you unlocked runes for completing bonuses on missions.

Now that's an absolutely brilliant idea. Implementing that correctly would be very nice. If you unlock one or two runes by doing a bonus (which usually is a lot tougher then the mission itelf) would save a lot of hassle. But there's still the problem of implementing an unlock via progress in PvP. It's easy enough to put rewards to those who have won HoH, but perhaps rewards to teams that win the first or second match as well?

It's hard getting to and winning that hall, it's even harder when you're suddenly facing skilled players who know how to use the slight advantage that the rares give them for maximum benifit when you have none. Implementing it perhaps like fame, perhaps every certain amount of fame you get a random unidentified (one that you haven't got before to reduce the amount of copies) or perhaps if you get 2-3 fame at a time, then you get the unlockable. The latter rewards player skill as a lot of the time the first match is a pushover. The second really decides if your team is a one hit wonder or is actually good. At that point you could get rewards every match won up.

Phaedrus · Jun 14, 2005, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

It's hard getting to and winning that hall, it's even harder when you're suddenly facing skilled players who know how to use the slight advantage that the rares give them for maximum benifit when you have none. Implementing it perhaps like fame, perhaps every certain amount of fame you get a random unidentified (one that you haven't got before to reduce the amount of copies) or perhaps if you get 2-3 fame at a time, then you get the unlockable. The latter rewards player skill as a lot of the time the first match is a pushover. The second really decides if your team is a one hit wonder or is actually good. At that point you could get rewards every match won up.

Yeah, the problem I have with rewarding just wins: a good group can consistantly get to round three with no trouble. How long does it take to do a bonus (which you can only be rewarded for once)? Rewards based on Rank are a great idea since you can only achieve a rank once.

Also, you should only be rewarded in this manner once per bonus per account, to be even-handed since rank is by account and not character.

[ ]

Sekkira · Jun 14, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Yeah, the problem I have with rewarding just wins: a good group can consistantly get to round three with no trouble. How long does it take to do a bonus (which you can only be rewarded for once)? Rewards based on Rank are a great idea since you can only achieve a rank once.

Also, you should only be rewarded in this manner once per bonus per account, to be even-handed since rank is by account and not character.

[ ]

The problem with that is there are only something like 25 bonus missions. So unless you put the rewards in for actual missions aswell, there's still going to be some farming involved, unless the drops are fixed up a bit.

Also rank isn't exactly the easiest obtainable. A lot harder then doing a bonus mission. But I supposed if you put both into consideration, you could do the bonuses and then the game gets harder. But I also suppose by the time you hit rank 20 or something, holding the hall of heroes shouldn't be too hard.

xaanix · Jun 14, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I'm not satisfied with one-time pvp unlocks unless it is UAS. I wont be satisfied until i'm able to pvp with the builds and strategies i want to run without the required 300 hour farming grind. Nerfs to farming simply complicate the problem further.

QTFsniper · Jun 14, 2005, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaanix

I'm not satisfied with one-time pvp unlocks unless it is UAS. I wont be satisfied until i'm able to pvp with the builds and strategies i want to run without the required 300 hour farming grind. Nerfs to farming simply complicate the problem further.

Farming nerfs dont affect you getting the skills that you need

Dreamsmith · Jun 14, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Personally, I find the whole thing confusing. Do we want PvP-only insta-chars or not? If so, what the heck is wrong with UAU? If not, then why do we have the option at all, why not just stick to RP characters and be done with it?

Personally, I think the insta-chars are a good idea. I've never used one myself and never intend to, but if other people enjoy them, great. But this half-arsed in-between system we have now doesn't make any sense to me. If you have to go through the missions collecting skills to make your insta-char, it's not really an insta-char now is it?

I dunno. Doesn't make any sense to me. Either let people make their insta-chars, or remove the option entirely. But make up your minds, AN, one way or the other...

Rasp · Jun 14, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

If you have to go through the missions collecting skills to make your insta-char, it's not really an insta-char now is it?

I dunno. Doesn't make any sense to me. Either let people make their insta-chars, or remove the option entirely. But make up your minds, AN, one way or the other...

You don't have to. There's an option to use a pre-made custom build, it supplies you with 7 skills, 1 elite. You can also create a custom pvp character, but you HAVE to have unlocked skills to do that.

I'm guessing you already knew this, so I'm confused as to what you're saying.

I actually think being able to create a pre-made pvp character was a great idea. Just wish there were better builds, most aren't that great IMO.

Zaklex · Jun 14, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

The big problem with thread like this is that there is so much inside discussion going on that the people outside can't be privy to, so everything suggested or proposed or discussed is so much speculation. There are things going on behind the scenes that nobody as insight to, so my suggestion is to relax a bit and see what A.net has up their sleeves, so to speak.

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I'm against the UAS/UAR because it would ultimately taking away any feeling of achievement I get out of PvE.

I do of course by all means enjoy doing the missions/fighting monsters in itself, but I also get a great amount of joy by taking my PvE character INTO PvP to compete. I enjoy knowing that the character I spent time with through PvE actually gets to compete in PvP. If you people got a UAS/UAR, it would eliminate that feeling as a whole and more. Because then I'd take the PvE character I know and love into PvP and feel cheated when I find that I'm fighting an all PvP character team, and they're even more souped up than I am, and I spent time and effort into my character.

What's that? You're telling me now to go make a PvP character to compete with them? I shouldn't HAVE to go use up one of my 4 cherished character slots to have a fair go at the PvP end of the game. What's that? PvP characters shouldn't have to go into PvE to get what they need? Do you forget that ANYONE who wants to have all the runes and skills has to do it to?

Also do you guys forget that even the PvE people have to do parts of PvE that they don't want to do in order to do better in later parts of PvE? Here's an argument I've never heard used before. You see people, runes and elite skills don't only give you an advantage in PvP, they give you an advantage EVERYWHERE. And if you want to be able to take the UW/FoW, it will be much easier to do it with the runes and elite skills!

You PvP people, do not seem to understand this. The runes and skills aren't JUST needed for high-end PvP, they're also needed for higher end PvE. And BOTH PvE and PvP players need to go farm for their skills and runes to get what they want. Understand now? The PvP people don't have it any harder than do PvE players.

What's that, it isn't necessary to HAVE them in high end PvE? Well it isn't NECESSARY in high-end PvP. But we all know it's EASIER.

So there. There you have it.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 14, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I wish A.Net would stop with their secretiveness. It's not doing anybody any good. Every day I don't see an improvement, I wonder if CS:S would be more fun. All they gotta do is say "We're working on ______, but it probably won't be out for another monk and a half". At least then I'd have a reason to stick around.

As refering to the above post, it is true that runes and skills help PvEers, but there isn't much "high end PvE". The highest is the Underworld and Fissure of Woe, and really, those are easy with a decent group. That and a PvEer only needs 1 build. One build. The rest of a PvEer's skills are just ones he used experimenting or using as replacements until he completed the final product. And PvE characters don't need every superior rune and major to be good. They just need 3... 4 at the most. A.Net completely destroyed their PvP game at the cost of their PvE game. Instead of being rewarded by unlocks, A.Net should have given the PvE more depth. I see other guys that look exactly like me so often it's rediculous.

Jackell · Jun 14, 2005, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Instead of being rewarded by unlocks, A.Net should have given the PvE more depth. I see other guys that look exactly like me so often it's rediculous.

God, do I agree. Anet also seems right now to be on a train ride to disaster. They keep taking away the challenges and efforts of pve and pissing the pve'ers off in order to bolster the effectiveness of pvp, but it's not making the pvpers happy because it's not what they want.

CAT · Jun 14, 2005, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Yes, many of the people who play only PvE are against UAS/UAR when they dont even play it. At first I was under the impression "noobs that only pvp dont want to do anything and own all", but after i started pvping I really understand, and I'm totally for it.

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

In response to weezer's post.

No, a PvEer does NOT only need one build. That would be like saying a PvP player only needs one character. And if that were the case it would not be a problem by any means unlocking the runes and skills because doing that for one character, isn't all that difficult. It's completing multiple classes that's the challenge. Both PvE and PvP players need to experiment with different builds, skill sets, and professions in order to find out what they find them most fun and/or beneficial for the situation they find themselves in most often, whether it be for PvE, PvP, or both. Different enemies and different situations can call for different things. And there are many who create multiple characters for PvE only, so they'll all be needing superior runes, unlocking of the elite skills, etc. It is not true that you make one character, one build, and your done. That's why there are 4 character slots, so that people can have more than one character, more than one build to play, whether it be PvE OR PvP. And do not forget, there are those who enjoy playing BOTH. So they'll need to be able to adapt to PvE and PvP, requiring more skills than one or the other I would say. Also, keep in mind that in later updates they will be adding more difficult PvE places, and these will require you to be more top-notch I'd have to say, hence more reason for PvE people to prepare.

Both PvP players AND PvE players want more top-notch skills and runes. Everybody wants the best weapons, the best armor, the best runes, and the best skills REGARDLESS of whether they be PvE, PvP, or both. And the fact is ALL players need to go through some trouble in order to get them. Is it absolutely necessary for PvE players to have them? No, but is it ABSOLUTELY necessary for PvP players to have them? No. A superior rune is hardly ever the difference between a win and a lose, having just mixed around my runes and skill sets I know this to be true in both PvE and PvP.

The fact of it is, we all want these things, but we have to put forth some effort into getting them. Otherwise it would just be another CS.

So we'll just have to either go find another game to play while waiting for some updates from Anet, or we'll need to stick around and put up with it until the update.

Either way, you asked for a view and that's my $0.02, I enjoy both PvP and PvE, so trust me, I'm concerned about it as well. I just don't think UAS/UAR is the way to go about it.

Saerden · Jun 14, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

The thing is, UAS is in the game. This has been said by others, but i add a angle to it that really is not considered too often:

Everyone can get every skill now, without any "real life skill barrier". I captured an elite skill without really paying attention. While it was hard to get some elites, it is no longer so. So the only deciding factor remains time (make new char, finish PvE (or get a runner), buy skills, capture elites (can now be done with a runner group too, you just need to tag along till they kill a boss, no skill required besides pushing the SoC after the boss is dead - and picking the elite

). The thing is, everyone who argues for UAS actually wants UAS0. Everyone who is against UAS wants UAS50-5000 where the number is the hours played.

3000$ sound like a lot of money to some. If people played for 300h (and 50h of FUN pve, the first time through) of "repetead, unenjoyable farming", they lost ca. 3000$. Is a game worth that much? Sure you can say that you dont make 10$/h. So lets say 1500$. If you cant work overtime, or get a second job (try getting a job at all in certain european countries), you could have used that time to do research: cheap prices, etc.
No matter what, wasting 300h of your life is not something a sane person would do. So either make the process of getting everything fun and market GW as another "rise to power" MMORPG - or introduce UAS0. The only argument against it would be the newb flood.

Jackell · Jun 14, 2005, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Actually, I'm for a UAS15 - 20

xaanix · Jun 14, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by QTFsniper

Farming nerfs dont affect you getting the skills that you need

Yes, actually they do, since i'm out of skillpoints, and farming was actually a good source of skillpoints. (i got 7 in a single day before the last patch went in)

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Saerden, when people refer to a UAS/UAR they're typically referring to a button, UAS0, there's no need to complicate things by adding numbers to the end of it. That's called spending the time and effort to do it.

Also, tell me this. If you played for 300h to unlock everything and got everything unlocked, just how many hours do you think you'll spend now that you've got everything? I'm pretty sure the numbers will then even out.

King of Fools · Jun 14, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

you all make it too complicated. its all about that little bit of feeling of accomplishment when you unlock something.
the least vocal members of the guildwars community, the ones who never post on any forums. they mostly just wanna have a diversion from their real life and feel good about something. they feel good about unlocking stuff. even after they level to 20, even after they realize their guild will never break the top 20 in the ladder. they are still have gonna fun unlocking stuff and seeing how it works until the next expansion.

sorry, logic doesn't cut it when you are talking about games.

on the same token, very few of even the silent majority are going to have much fun repeating content to unlock the same skills for another role-play character so i think that Anet should consider a middle of the road solution. If one character unlocks a skill on your account then all characters on your account have access to that skill.