Curse

Greedy Gus · Jun 30, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Actually, we have faced many of the guilds bound for Germany, such as War Machine, Last Pride, iQ, and quite a few others (not that we did very well, but we have faced them).

Unfortunate(?), but that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Yes, we have faced triple smite builds, and yes we have beaten them with split squad tactics. No, split squad is not as viable as it was before Factions because, as you say, there are too many gimmicks.

If your r900 guild was beating top 50 triple smite teams, I might take this seriously. The point is, you're talking about beating low teams. No one is debating points based on low teams who do make mistakes and can be beaten tactically. The R/P/S point is much less of an issue lower down the ladder, where everyone makes enough mistakes that build makes much less of an impact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

My original point (and this was always one of Moskel's points when he discussed GvG builds) was that if the game is decided out of the gate, you have built your build too rigidly and cannot deal with whatever the enemy is throwing at you.

Used to be the case, and probably still is the case low in the ranks (unsurprisingly, where moskel preferred to play, and his reason was that he preferred playing where people made mistakes and you could always win through tactics). But now, we're nearing an all-time high of powerful 'gimmick' builds that all pose a serious threat to teams playing competitively at the top of the ladder. SB/RI spikes, triple/double-smite builds, FC air spike, mass melee builds, mass hex stacks, barrier ranger spike, etc.

With every new addition of new skills and professions, going into gvg becomes more of a crapshoot and more difficult to build a well-rounded, balanced build that gives you the tools to win tactically against anything you face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

SB/RI can be beaten by one copy of Expel Hexes as it will always remove RI. Holy Veil will also give you plenty of time if you can get it in fast enough (most seem to forget that it doubles hex casting times in addition to the removal effect they usually bring it for). I know I make that sound a lot easier than it is but you don't really need to expend that many skill slots to counter it. It certainly shouldn't be enough to be crippling your build against others.

This is simply, strictly not the case. Again, we're talking about good teams running these builds. Off the top of my head, both KGYU and EW both specced their balanced builds to handle SB/RI, but they both still suffered losses to it. After that, they just stopped playing on the ladder to avoid getting tanked.

It's amazing to sit back and watch people on forums say how easy it is to beat these builds, but their guild is nowhere near the top 100. While you do have members here from top 20 guilds telling you stuff is overpowered, or that it's like R/P/S, and you'll sit and argue with them. I hear this is a big problem for the alphas- they have a bunch of people who just aren't good at PvP telling the devs that stuff isn't overpowered, when their r300 guild doesn't win with it or can beat other r300 guilds running it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

SB/RI is the exception because it is too strong to engage even when divided in two, so it cannot be outmaneuvered OR overpowered without the "rock" for its "scissors".

This I can agree with, it's the one current gimmick that I do find overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

What I feel today is that the problem is not with the R-S-P metagame but in with the fact that there is NO R-S-P metagame right now. There is no "real" effective papper to stop the spike builds......

You're so off-base here that I can't even attempt a reply.

crimsonfilms · Jun 30, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

What I feel today is that the problem is not with the R-S-P metagame but in with the fact that there is NO R-S-P metagame right now. There is no "real" effective papper to stop the spike builds......

That is untrue. You can counter SB/RI with 2 copies of Convert Hex and a Dwaynas Kiss.

Triple Smite is also beatable.

But that is not the question in regards to balancing. The question is --- "Is it overpowered compared to other builds?"

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 30, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I still think you don't understand the R-S-P metagame.
R-S-P isn't about "a" build but rather concept of builds.

You have several concept of build but I am going to oversimply using just 3 types: Spike,Split, Balanced
Let's just suppose (and this is not a real theory here) that in "theory":

Split wins against Spike
Balanced wins against Split
Spike wins against balanced

(This is only as an example, not a real 100% analysis).

Usually, this would create a R-S-P metagame. You win against some, you loose against the other.
Of course, this can't be true 100% or nobody would ever play a game like this. Why would you play a 30 minute match if you knew that you had already lost? Obviously there are other factors to take into consideration: individual play skill, group play skill, different maps and sheer luck. All these factors will allow you to overcome the other team even if you face an up-hill match.
This obviously makes the game fun.

Now, currently there is not R-S-P. There are some builds, usually called "gimmick" builds that win more than their "fair" share of the matches, against which you can't make a good counter build.
It's like if you have a Spike build (ROCK) against which there is no real counter (no papper).

Now, top players and top-guilds will always play what they feel is "the" best build that will win most games. Add the fact that today there is a "best" build, or at least a build that is SOOOOO much better than the others that it will win a big % of the matches..... then you'll have a degenerated enviorment.

What I feel today is that the problem is not with the R-S-P metagame but in with the fact that there is NO R-S-P metagame right now. There is no "real" effective papper to stop the spike builds......

A very insightful post. This probably states what I have been trying to state 1000% more clearly. I appologize for confusing people here, because I really wound up agreeing with most of what everyone said. I think it's time I shut up now, unless there's something else to discuss.

Oh, and again, credit to Josh for the great article, and credit to ArenaNet in advance for restabilizing the metagame. I hope.