Curse

Tijger · May 31, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

5 dollars a box? You must be joking right?

The cost of developing guild wars is capped, they only have to pay these devs so much money a month, they probably worked out how much bandwidth an average player would utilise over his or her lifetime, the storage used for each user account is.. as you can see from your inventory and stash.. minimal.

A staff of 110 devs is a lot of money. Bandwidth, while cheaper then a few years ago, is not cheap especially not the kind that Anet uses and needs, that requires stringent SLA's and uptime guarantees that consumers neither get or need.

As for storage and server hardware, I have no idea how much it takes up in space but I do happen to know a few things about hardware, such as that there is a limit to how many accounts a server can handle no matter how small the transaction involved is.
We're not talking consumer level equipment here, Anet does not go "Dude, you are getting a Dell!" for $399.

Quote:

So it costs $45 to press a CD and print a tiny piece of paper with a access key on it? I certainly don't think so. In large enough quantities they can probably do it for under $2, and factor in maybe $10-20 for R&D, but the rest would be pure gravy.

I never broke down the price structure, I'm going by what are industry standards for profit margins, something I know something about and you obviously do not. I factor into my figure of $5 the montly upkeep costs of Anet's gaming infrastructure.

Quote:

This is intellectual property you are talking about, so don't act as though for the $50 Anet is actually producing something. It doesn't.

Well, I have here 2 CD's (well, 4 counting my wife's copies) of Guild Wars & GW Factions, you are telling me those arent real products then?
Not only that but those products are being maintained on a daily basis (unlike some gaming companies we all know and hate) and even get free expansions.

The IP is the concept of GW, the IP is the network code of GW (a work of true art btw) however, since Anet does not sell or licences those but instead sells a product called Guild Wars which has no monthly fees simply claiming that this is only IP makes no sense.
GW requires that Anet provides bandwidth and server to run, that makes it a product not simply IP.

VGJustice · May 31, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arlan

Hi,
While i completly agree with the banning of bots and various game cheats how can you be sure the correct account gets closed???
Whats the trigger / search criteria that flags an account to say - "bot" or "sells in game items for £2.40 on e-bay" or some such.
My point comes from the fact that after nearly 900 GW hours gaming the 'net of capture' (elite ranger skill) seems to have snagged a few innocents. Of which i am one!!! My has been closed for the selling live rule - which i have never bothered/ or need to do.
I dont farm - dont collect - anything i dont need i give away (usually to guild buddies)
So - how much (or what) is a player allowed to give away without the account being flagged?? This is the question.anyone know???.
Ban the bots - waste of space anyway. I'm not even sure how they can benfit a player anyway? explaination anyone?

The last two weeks discussion with the Support team ( or really the automated response server) is on www.starcainam.com - forum. If anyone wanbts to check.

Anyone aware of any other threads of this nature - the fight for reinstament continures.!!!

Sorry to hear about your banning. Let me explain what I can remember from the last incident.

What they track is the trading and sales activities of accounts that they know use bots (not easy to find out, and it has to be 100% certain). After that, they see who and what that account traded with, and they then track the items. Let's say one of your characters came into contact with a botter and you sold them 20+ Obsidian Shards for in game currency. They then went and sold those Shards on e-bay as well as the shards they collected themselves with the bot programs. A.Net may assume that you're a player aiding a botter, and as such terminate your account, even if it's not true. It doesn't even have to be like that. You may have had multiple dealings with the same account, but all different characters. Or, maybe you bought something from them, and it seemed suspicious. That could be how innocent accounts get caught up in the crossfire.

This makes sense to me, because A.Net would want to get rid of not just the bots but those that help the botters as well.

All I can say is, keep trying with the support ticket, as they're the only ones that can help you. Just, be polite, they don't actually have to help you or unban you, and they may just learn how they made the mistake (if one was made) which helps everyone.

=HT=Ingram · May 31, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

it is important to note that the following.

there is a multi tier stage to getting banned its not a instant thing. It takes 3 or 4 incidents for a permanent account ban to occur. Normally they temp ban first and this gives you an opportunity to communicate with Anet to find out why through support.guildwars.com.
in many cases a ban can be reversed with some conversation with support. Generally it entails an explanation of what happened and basically saying you will not do it again, if you broke the rules in some way...
This option often entail a punishment of an account inventory and equipment wipe... Like end of beta.
it is important to also note there is language in the EULA that states that for ANY reason Anet reserves the right to terminate the agreement or license at any time. I don't remember the exact section its in but I remember reading it. (Its in almost every EULA in existence actually)

anyway. I have had some success getting anet to listen to people that were banned that are were from our guild and got positive results on the matter in the past. So its worth starting a support ticket on the matter and getting the Support team involved in your case if you did nothing wrong under the RoC or the EULA, then they will help you. If it was a ban on a certain type of activity recorded from logs, it will entail BOTH parties involved speaking to support. To prove its not botters... See a Bot accct or reseller generally will just wipe their hands of it and get another account from their hacked list... They do not buy retail copies. for the most part they either steal passwords and hijack accounts, or purchase them from ebay for gold farming purposes. This too is reasons that particular activity is not allowed...

anyway good luck. I know the GMs over there will get it all sorted out for you. Jason and Moogie were very helpful to us in the past.

For the record one such activity that cause a trigger to hit was pooling gold for guild hall services. since it was around 600K transferred to one account in sevral transactions in a few mins. Looked suspicious in logs, and triggered a temp ban flag, but when I showed it was used for GH services in the logs they cleared our record and lifted the ban without a wipe, NP at all... After all that was a new situation that they didn't think of when it was implemented... But you can see the kind of thing that can happen...

Another incident from a very long time ago was a fellow co leader of our guild Bought some gold from one of the exchanges and got caught... Well he was banned and after some finegalling (especially since he was the guild leader at the time) and swearing that he would not do it again. we got a temporary lift of the ban to make me the leader of the guild, AND his account was wiped... SO basically he had to start over from scratch, but as I understood it if there was another incident like this he would not get his account restored again in the future. So I assume its a case by case basis that the GMs handle these problems.

What Anet needs is a GM message system at login that shows warnings on your account... That way if there is a flag that went off you can explain it to GMs in support early without it going to a point of a ban... Just a little warning message with a incident # for reference in support pages. Something like that...

Ingram...

Arangja · May 31, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Thx Ingram for that info

Seeng that I am a guild leader as well it is good to know how to approach problems like this if they ever arise. Luckely we are still a small guild but we have talked about pooling togethere to buy some stuff for the GH.

After reading this I think I will just get one item at a time lol

Thanks again

Darkron · May 31, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I have just thought of a reason that my guildie Arlan Tempus (above) may have been banned and would like to discuss to see if you guys know whether this could cause it.

We have had a member of our guild leave recently and he has left us his account as he choses not to play anymore. The guild now use that account as an inventory store and as such the same charachter will be giving and receiving a large number of items, Gold/Green/Rare materials etc from now on. Would Somebody donating to this guild pool a large amount of trading items or materials possibly trigger the events that arlan has seen above whereby he is permanently banned for apparent out of game trading, even though the only reason he is performing zero cost exchanges is for the good of the guild ?

Recently I have given away a V Bulwark and a couple of green staffs, I have not been out farming much I just seem to get lucky with the drops but instead of going through the hassle of trading I give things away if not to my guildies to people I have been on a team with who I think are alright and could do with them, will I be next to be banned ?

Arangja · May 31, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I sincerely hope that would not be the reason

I have created an assasin in factions but did not really like playing him that much, and have kept the character for just that. To use as a pack mule, seeing that my storage is basically full and i don't like to run around with my bags full on the char (you never what you might find

)

If that is the cause of his banment then I think there will be quite a lot of other pll in serious line of fire because i know of a lot of ppl that uses one of their less prefered characters as mules

Plz let us know if this was the reason

Darkron · May 31, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I do not think that there would be a problem transferring between two characters on the same account, however there may come an issue when a completely seperate account is used. I could be wrong of course and hope I am as soon our whole guild may be banned

Arangja · May 31, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Dakron I am sure that all the transections will be able to be traced to that account and that they will see that all the ppl trading to that account are all in the same guild (mostly if I understand you correctly).

I think however that you guys have started about this in the right way to create a ticket and that this will be solved

Plz let us know what the outcome of this situation will be

Arlan · May 31, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Hi
Many thanks for the advice guys - the ticket has been opened for approx two weeks now (log can be seen on website forum www.starcainam.com) - and although at first i ranted a bit once i realised they have complete power I started responding sensibly.
I had NO warnings - no temp bans/in game messages - so i presume this is for the 'major' infraction - for which they must have cast iron proof?????
I have been saving over the last few months for a sup vigor - but everytime I get to about 40 plat i seem to find a staff i must have - again - no massive increase in game gold in a short period.
Once i do get a live response (not automated which is mostly what i have received so far) I will for sure advise the reason in this thread - because i for one have not got a clue!!!!

I was also at one of the desert missions and saw about 20 odd monk bots - was i screen captured iwith that lot? Do they think my monk is a bot? Although the reason as stated is 'selling in game items for cash'.

Ho hum

the fight continues.

Arlan

Loviatar · May 31, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arlan

Hi
Many thanks for the advice guys - the ticket has been opened for approx two weeks now .

Arlan

remembet one and all that after 24 hours withour a reply from you the automated system assumes it solved the problem so that ticket is closed (after all you never said it didnt work)

then you have to open a new ticket and start over

reply quickly
reply politely
be persistant but keep your cool.

TO DARKRON

NO

SINCE THE GOODS ARE STAYING IN HOUSE AND NOT EBAY NO FLAG IS RAISED

Grais · May 31, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We banned the bot users strictly to protect the game. I am not even sure that people who were banned for bot use would buy a second copy and restart. If they rely on bots to get anywhere, and they know we're actively pursuing bot users...

The "resale to bot users" was never part of our discussions about doing this. Our interest--pure and simple--is keeping the economy good, and keeping bad people out of Profiteer Corner--at your expense!

Sometimes companies do things with all the right reasons, and the outcome is completely good. Sometimes there is not a conspiracy to theorize about.

Laughable at best.All together now, "too little too late".
No the bot users wont buy another copy(if ya think they bought the original copy, boy are you delusioned), they'll just have to use one of the thousand bootlegged copies they have access to. DUH. I Quit this game a long time ago, a game I loved to play mind you, mainly because Anet dont do squat for anyone but themselves(and judging from all the unfamilar posters lots others did too), but mostly because Anet dont do squat for any of the problems people asked and asked to have addressed. Nothing zip nada, heres an 'expansion' woops did I say expansion, I mean heres a new game for you, full of even more problems than the last one, shut up, its got no monthly fee.'
How long has botting been a problem, since about 4 months after the release, how long has the economy been a problem, since release, whoooopdeddooo they banned 1000 botters, theres only another 10-20 thousand out there botting away like mad. 1000 botters , are they proud of that, what a joke 1000.
Ive never seen another Fanboi following such as the one that follows Guildwars, "Yuck yuck....but its free, NO MONTHLY fee goll durnitt" , ya well so is every other online game if you half an iq over 50.

mike1480 · May 31, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I think identifiying/banning/minimizing bot effectiveness and people selling gw things is not a difficult task (from where my small mind sees things):

1- Disallow trading in International Districts - If you cant switch between Realms, why should you be able to trade between them and allow gold passage back and forth? If gold on certain servers becomes useless, then additional costs may prohibit gold farmers from continuing farming because profit protential may be too low
2- Identify the companies perpetrating the acts and ban the accounts giving the money away. It isnt hard to open up ebay and type in 'guild wars' and see the 5,000 listings offering 100k for 5$.
3- Cross reference email accounts selling guild wars gold on ebay to email account logins on guild wars to identify the sellers and buyers - this wont get the large companies but it will discourage the small ones (obviously the source of the information is via 3rd party and the resources required might be difficult to muster, but it would go a long way in detering people from getting involved in the first place)
4- Create a popup (like the "please take a break" messages, but forced to respond) at different time intervals (only in towns?) and say notify the player they cannot move until they click this/that button - this would probly create the auto-logoff/login from bots but that type systemic, repeated action can be easily found through macros monitoring user activity

i could sit here all day coming up with goofy ways, but you get the idea

mike1480 · May 31, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkron

I could be wrong of course and hope I am as soon our whole guild may be banned

Have no fear. Bots are discovered through exception reports which generate sever out-of-the-ordinary account/character usage and other such discrepancies.

For instance, Joe Schmoe Char entered Elonas Reach 500 times over 48 straight hours spending right about 10.6 minutes in the area each time. Continuous, unorthodox patterns like this are the red flags which identify bot users.

When people set up bots, they are set to perform a specific function/set of actions over and over and over again, literally and figuratively 'mining for gold,' but on a specific group/type of monsters.

The computer nerds @ Anet are able to run reports which can pull that information out and put it to good use - banning those *********.

Loviatar · May 31, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1480

I think identifiying/banning/minimizing bot effectiveness and people selling gw things is not a difficult task (from where my small mind sees things):

1- Disallow trading in International Districts - If you cant switch between Realms, why should you be able to trade between them and allow gold passage back and forth? If gold on certain servers becomes useless, then additional costs may prohibit gold farmers from continuing farming because profit protential may be too low
2- Identify the companies perpetrating the acts and ban the accounts giving the money away. )

prices were standardized in the great trader reset some time ago so gold is of equal value in any district.

as for going after bot networks and supporters it is very old news as seen here. (oct 05)

Quote:

Selling in-game items for cash is clearly against the terms of service, and engaging in any farming or storage activity that assists other people in selling in-game items for cash is also against the terms of service. If you're farming gold or items for someone who sells them for cash, you need to stop now. We are currently gathering data, and when we take action it will be to close entire networks of accounts at once: those used for farming, those used for storage, and those used for distribution.

lyra_song · May 31, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grais

Laughable at best.All together now, "too little too late".
No the bot users wont buy another copy(if ya think they bought the original copy, boy are you delusioned), they'll just have to use one of the thousand bootlegged copies they have access to. DUH. I Quit this game a long time ago, a game I loved to play mind you, mainly because Anet dont do squat for anyone but themselves(and judging from all the unfamilar posters lots others did too), but mostly because Anet dont do squat for any of the problems people asked and asked to have addressed. Nothing zip nada, heres an 'expansion' woops did I say expansion, I mean heres a new game for you, full of even more problems than the last one, shut up, its got no monthly fee.'
How long has botting been a problem, since about 4 months after the release, how long has the economy been a problem, since release, whoooopdeddooo they banned 1000 botters, theres only another 10-20 thousand out there botting away like mad. 1000 botters , are they proud of that, what a joke 1000.
Ive never seen another Fanboi following such as the one that follows Guildwars, "Yuck yuck....but its free, NO MONTHLY fee goll durnitt" , ya well so is every other online game if you half an iq over 50.

Actually....MMORPG type games cant be bootlegged, especially GW. Everything on GW is server side. You cant crack it, if you dont know how the algorithm works.

Bootleggers DO have access to stolen, falsified, etc credit cards and thats what is usually used (difficult to trace).

Its sad to hear that you quit. If you have been playing, maybe you would have noticed that Anet does care and does listen. Issues are SLOW to resolve because theres so many. But the most important ones like exploits and such get patched rather quickly.

Anet opening up the Elite missions and beginner missions is a perfect example of them listening to all of us whine. And a pretty quick response if i might say so.

Anet doesnt have to tell us that they are banning bots. However, they tell us this as a PR move, to comfort the community and calm us down. It would be naive to think otherwise. However it would also be naive to think that Anet would let bots run amuck on their servers without doing something about it.

Yes, you can play MMORPGS for free on private servers, anyone with google can do that. But this is not a private server. This is a full fledged international online game with millions of players, a large community, corporate financial backing, sponsors, CUSTOMER SERVICE and access across many servers for free. Thats the big difference. Dont even try to compare.

Tickle · May 31, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I don't play a bot and my account was one of those banned. It's been 14+ hours and I still haven't heard a reply from GW or Anet. This is very frustrating as I have never used a 3rd party program. I've played GW for over 8 months and have always used my skill to farm in a few of those areas and never a bot. It happened without warning. I played it one morning, went to work, arrived home from work and my account was banned. Since I don't use 3rd party programmes I would really love to know why it was banned. I normally conduct myself in an orderly manner and give away alot of stuff to new ppl to the game and also guild mates. If that is a breach of conduct or a breach or the user agreement then I apologise for been so generous. I cant say I agree with the bans since they really buggered it up by banning an account that is actually legit.

Arlan · May 31, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Hi Tickle - Join the apparantly growing club!!!!

You'll have to raise it with GW Support and open a ticket. I beleive there must be quite a few in our boat as the response time is a little on the slow side!!! :-)

Good luck and keep us posted on how things progress. I'll do the same.

regards

Arlan

Tickle · May 31, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Good luck also Arlan, it really is all too surreal I must admit I had no idea what was going on as it took me by supprise when I went to loggin and saw the message. I raised it with GW support basically straight away so hopefully they will respond in due time. I've spent over 2000 hours on GW and anything I have gained as a result has been through human playing time and not via bots. Disconcerting as it is and very frustrating I will probably go back to the game as I enjoy it so much. Hopefully my inventory will not get wiped as I have spent countless hours going after my globs/shards/amber and also other rare materials for 15k armour.
*WOW, this post just made me a citizen

*

Dragonious · May 31, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

i just hope guildwars stays around for a long time and this banning should generate more money so its for the best for all of us in many ways

Lite Sabre · May 31, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Hi everyone - this is my first post on guildwarsguru, so hope this is the right way to do it :-)

I know Arlan, who has recently been banned and I think I have an idea as to the reason. On April 28th at 22:59, me, Arlan and another mate Missy arrived at Elonas Reach. What did we see?

Dozens of monk bots all standing at the merchant, one on top of the other. Monks as far as the eye could see and none of them talking. At the time I recall making a comment that they looked just like Arlan and he even ran over to them to compare himself.

Now, I am 100% certain that they have mistaken him for a bot. Either some well intentioned person did a screen shot and sent it in and Arlan was in it, or ANET ran some automatic system to pick up on monks in there at a certain time - well I can't be sure.

All, I can be sure of is that I have screen shot evidence of Arlan being in my team and us all looking at an army of duplicated monks as far as the eye could see. Its time stamped, so thats why I know exactly when we were there.

I completely agree that bots and cheats of all types should be combated, but their reaction flies in the face of the comments in their legal section that says that they have no intention of banning large numbers of players, and banning is a last course of action. Banning seems to be the first course of action and is in complete breach of their own advertised terms and conditions. I believe such an action may in fact be illegal if you were to take it to the extreme.

There has to be a better way of targetting cheats without impacting upon players whose accounts have been active for 10+ months and have played in excess of 1000 hours and have purchased their accounts fairly. Not only that these players have introduced others to the game and have actually helped ANET make money.

Come on ANET reinstate them now - you developed what I and many others would consider to be the best game we've ever seen, yet don't seem capable of identifying an automaton from a human player!