Curse

hellboy909 · Jul 10, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Some of them ARE exactly the same

This is another thing that could create balancing challenges. As it is now I see people complaining about touch rangers using Vampiric Touch/Bite together. Once more chapters start coming out you may well be able to have 3, 4, 5 copies of the same skill at once. I'll be curious to see how they handle that.

Actually now that I think about it playing a skillbar full of Vampiric Touch/Bite/Kiss/Nibble/Hug/Lick/Etc could be fun. Or maybe just pointless and retarded.

eudas · Jul 10, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

yeah i saw the copied skills and was like 'hoo boy, it's m:tg all over again'. duplicate skills that do the *exact* same thing simply lead to cheesy abuse.

eudas

Cador · Jul 10, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

The main problem that A-net faces, as previously mentioned is that each game has to be a standalone, so that you can play one Prophecies char against a Factions Char, and it will be equal footing. The main reason for this is due to the fact that it is a CMORPG so PvP is a bigger aspect.

sinican · Jul 11, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erasculio

Those would be overpowered and imbalanced.

If you have a higher cost, people wouldn't use those unless they are better than the other skills. If they are better than the other skills, regadless of the cost, they are imbalanced. The requirements you mention aren't uncommon - everyone has 2 Professions, so the skills that require two classes would simply be overpowered at little cost. The same applies with skills that actually have a requirement - it's not uncommon for people to have a lot of attribute points invested in one direction, therefore said skills would be overpowered at little cost.

GW doesn't support "uber" stuff - be it skills or items. The only "uber" stuff that fits within the game is uber player skills, and that's something hard to find.

Erasculio

it would not be overpowered or an imbalance when core focused classes have counter skills...

not to mention the variations of dual classing and the varation ins att alocation within them...

you know all those not so used dual class combinations and attribute alocations this would be a god way to introduce new dual class normalities...

and give those who choose to go pure class a benefit whilst losing the benefits of dual classing...

from your post you dont seem to look at it from this persepctive... yea everyone has dual class but not everyone has the same build nor the same att alocation nor can you be pure class with att alocated in a secondary class

twicky_kid · Jul 11, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.

I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use.

0mar · Jul 11, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cador

The main problem that A-net faces, as previously mentioned is that each game has to be a standalone, so that you can play one Prophecies char against a Factions Char, and it will be equal footing. The main reason for this is due to the fact that it is a CMORPG so PvP is a bigger aspect.

other than being PR material, there is absolutely zero way a person with Factions only can compete in any meaningful way in PvP. It's nice to say that, but in reality, it's just not going to happen. An axe warrior without eviscerate? An e-denier without surge? It's good PR, but that's it.

Jesse · Jul 11, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

regarding duplicate spells...did anyone notice that vampiric bite and vampiric touch are similar therefore resulting in touch rangers

tear · Jul 11, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

other than being PR material, there is absolutely zero way a person with Factions only can compete in any meaningful way in PvP. It's nice to say that, but in reality, it's just not going to happen. An axe warrior without eviscerate? An e-denier without surge? It's good PR, but that's it.

Factions is still very new. Prophecies has been around over a year, and for most of that time was all there was. People have had a long time to work with only its skills and creating the builds that go along with them. With time, I'm sure completely different Factions builds will emerge.

Age · Jul 11, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

What is wrong with sun and the moon pair it up with silverwing slash or galrath along with dragon and it turns out out fine or even 100 blades?It is very decnt at doing out damage the only thing I am disappointed in is sword as well as hammer doesn't have a good interrupt like axe does.There are some good protection and smiting skills for Monks.I am still going through the rRanger and Ele skills though.

draxynnic · Jul 11, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.

I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use.

Well, to a certain extent there are skills that require two attributes to use to their full extent - Arc Lightning and Gust come to mind. Admittedly, these skills can be employed by synergising with another character rather than carrying all the skills yourself, but it is a step in the general direction.

I think the way I'd see multiple-attribute skills working is by having two variables linked to different attributes - say, damage from one attribute, and a duration from another. For instance, consider a variant of Ash Blast that, instead of requiring a knocked down target to blind, instead required Fire and Earth (and, probably, considerably higher energy to use and other balancing factors, but we'll ignore them for now). Having a higher Fire attribute allows the character to make hotter ash, therefor the damage of the spell is based on that attribute, while a higher Earth magic results in finer ash that is better at getting stuck in people's eyes, resulting in a longer Blind duration.

arcanemacabre · Jul 11, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Well, to a certain extent there are skills that require two attributes to use to their full extent - Arc Lightning and Gust come to mind. Admittedly, these skills can be employed by synergising with another character rather than carrying all the skills yourself, but it is a step in the general direction.

I think the way I'd see multiple-attribute skills working is by having two variables linked to different attributes - say, damage from one attribute, and a duration from another. For instance, consider a variant of Ash Blast that, instead of requiring a knocked down target to blind, instead required Fire and Earth (and, probably, considerably higher energy to use and other balancing factors, but we'll ignore them for now). Having a higher Fire attribute allows the character to make hotter ash, therefor the damage of the spell is based on that attribute, while a higher Earth magic results in finer ash that is better at getting stuck in people's eyes, resulting in a longer Blind duration.

Wow. This dual-class skill idea is phenomenol! Exactly the way you explain it, too. It makes a lot of sense. Although that's more dual-attribute, but yeah it works! Now stretch that out to... Say you have a skill called Banishment Lightning, and depending on how much Smiting Prayers you have increases the Holy damage, where depending on how much Air Magic you have increases the Armor penetration.

Oh yes, I like this very much.

Erasculio · Jul 11, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

from your post you dont seem to look at it from this persepctive...

Actually, you didn't understand my main point.

If there's a higher cost for a skill, that skill is going to be better than the ones with a lower cost, or it won't be used as often. We see that in game with skills that require, say, more energy.

A dual class skill theorically has a higher cost (which in fact it doesn't), and therefore will be more powerful than the others...There's the imbalance. If you have a Fire/Eath skills that is better than any Fire skill or any Earth skill, guess what people are going to use? To keep the same comparison, while it's obviously better for a skill to cost less energy, a build with 16 Fire Magic and 13 Energy Storage isn't intrinsically better than one with Fire Magic 15, Eath Magic 14 and 4 in Energy Storage.

That's why I think the idea of multi class skills belongs to the cathegory of ideas that would be "cool", but that wouldn't really work in GW.

Erasculio

gamecube187 · Jul 11, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

this "dual class" or "dual attribute" thing seems like it would be really good for the problem of repeating skills and such. Just balance these skills with high energy/adrenaline and/or high recharge and don't make them too powerfull and I think they would be awsome! Lets hope we see this or something similar in future chapters!

sinican · Jul 11, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamecube187

this "dual class" or "dual attribute" thing seems like it would be really good for the problem of repeating skills and such. Just balance these skills with high energy/adrenaline and/or high recharge and don't make them too powerfull and I think they would be awsome! Lets hope we see this or something similar in future chapters!

you wouldnt need to make them longer recharges or cost if there requirement was harder to make you give each type of dual class a few skills from different attrabute allocations... and you balance them perspectivaley

you could call these core elites if you wanted to or something to the maner of which these skills define builds

arcanemacabre · Jul 11, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

you wouldnt need to make them longer recharges or cost if there requirement was harder to make you give each type of dual class a few skills from different attrabute allocations... and you balance them perspectivaley

you could call these core elites if you wanted to or something to the maner of which these skills define builds

That's what I'm thinking. Elites are supposed to be better, so you just make these Elites, that way when they are obviously superior skills, they have every right to be since you can only have one and no other Elite.

The toss-up will be, do you want to put all your points into one attribute and your primary? Or split between two attributes just because of this one skill, and leaving only a few points left for your primary? It's already a decision you have to make, these skills will just make that decision that much tougher.

Markaedw · Jul 11, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

We kind of have that now, lightning touch and arch lighting, both have extra damage when foe is under a water hex, shields that require divine favor, staffs that halve death skill casting by blood magic, or even conjure ele + damge when carring a weapon the does that ele damage.

Dual skill attacks would simply add a whole new layer to the metagame, they don't need any specially long cast or recharge time, or even be limited to elite

Having attacks that require points in more than one skill would simply stir things up, make those cookie cutter builds a little more interesting.

Lets keep things simple. RA 2 warriors, platemail, both have the same swords, same skills. As it stands now it's pretty a stand still, but add a dual attack skill, say lightning blade, x damage based on strength with x armor pentration based on air magic, now it gets interesting. More damage or more armor penetration, and which warrior went which way?

Loshi · Jul 11, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.

I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use.

Before they make dual-req multiclass skills, they need to make skills that have two single-class requisites. imo.

Rieselle · Jul 11, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Although maybe not for Ch3, I think they will definitely need to introduce new mechanics to the base classes if they want to keep adding skills for them.

There's only so many variations of Deal/Heal X damage/ cause condition(s)/ cannot be blocked|evaded / has half range / easily interrupted / has an area of X/ that you can meaningfully do.

Archangel_92 · Jul 11, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

There's another way of making (less confusing) multi-class skills. Make a skill that is very similar to another in its attribute line, make its variable slightly better (ie more dmg/duration), keep the skill variable linked to a single attribute and add in a "50% chance of failure if <other class's attribute> is less than X"

Curse You · Jul 11, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erasculio

A dual class skill theorically has a higher cost (which in fact it doesn't), and therefore will be more powerful than the others...There's the imbalance. If you have a Fire/Eath skills that is better than any Fire skill or any Earth skill, guess what people are going to use? To keep the same comparison, while it's obviously better for a skill to cost less energy, a build with 16 Fire Magic and 13 Energy Storage isn't intrinsically better than one with Fire Magic 15, Eath Magic 14 and 4 in Energy Storage.

You fail to factor in runes and headgear. It is possible to have 13 energy storage (12+1) as well as 12 in two of the other atributes (one is 8+1+3 the other is 10+2).

Remember kiddies, runes and headgear don't have to raise an atribute to 16, they have other uses too.