Curse

Snowman · Feb 17, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkerHelmet

Conclusion; take the rank crap out of the game and make pvp a fun experience again. Those who feel to good; play with your uber friends and/or join/make a pvp guild.

But Rank DOES give you something to be proud of.. something to acheive, a Goal..

Yes this would solve the problem, but the fun factor wouldnt last very long.. you need SOMETHING to spur you on, a motivation.. by taking rank out completly you remove the only real acheivable thing which makes you stand out from others.

And ANET arnt the kind of people to simply remove something

Orbberius · Feb 17, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkerHelmet

My wish; that faction points would be left out of the game alltogheter. If peeps want a high skilled group they should make one among known friends ingame or start a pvp guild or something.

And you can't do that now becaauuuse.....? See, this is what people should be doing NOW, but for whatever reason, they expect to type in "Warrior LFG" and get a group instantly and beat all the other teams.

OK, yes, there are problems that need to be fixed, but all this whining is a bit too much. Some people really need to consider what they are doing wrong and what expectations they have that are unreasonable. Try to make your own group, jump in a random team, talk to the people requiring ranked players, tell them your skillbar, learn to play the maps, get better, talk to the people on your team, make some friends who are good, play with these friends as they come online, talk with the people on your team, get even better, and on and on.

I think the biggest reason for all this whining is that IWAY made it waaay too easy to get faction and all the people who don't want to play IWAY are leering jealously at all the IWAY people and are thinking 'if they can get fame so quickly, why can't I?' But the bigger reason IWAY is so successfull is that it requires very minimal interaction between the players. You basically jump in and whack at things with your axe and your teammates do the same. I'm willing to bet that people who got their rank before IWAY came in did so because they formed a list of friends who knew each other and knew what each player was good at.

So part of the problem is that people are far too anti-social at this point to talk to other players properly and work out a plan or strategy or build to play. Of course, this is a big problem on the internet generally. So try using Ventrilo. People can be MUUUUCH bigger asses when they're typing something in chat, but when you're actually speaking to each other, everything suddenly changes, and for the better. Everybody becomes more accomodating, more reasonable. Maybe try talking to a group on Ventrilo for 5 or 10 minutes before you jump in a match; again, work out some sort of strategy, discuss what each player is good at and just generally get better at teamwork.

Although, surely after the GWWC IWAY will be nerfed (along with ranger spike), if only to get people out of the 'you gotta play THIS build to win quickly' mentality. And a better group-matching mechanic can't hurt either.

But in the end, people just have to adjust their expectations. The players on your team aren't henchmen. You're dealing with other human beings, and sometimes you have to have some social skills.

/rant

imortal · Feb 17, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

yup thats the only thing holding me back from HoH. I mean i dont blame some of the ppl for wanting ppl with fame, some ppl just ruin it for every1 thats unranked when they join a IWAY team with exactly none of the right skills. I i know the maps and i know wut im doing, i have more faction than most ppl there. Only thing i haven't had as much experience in as them is standing around all day in ToPK just to get a semi-good group. So im eternally stuck in GvG. Hopefully there will be a new way to earn fame in these faction wars.

monk54321 · Feb 17, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I honestly just can't believe this has turned into, "I'm not rank (x), and everyone who is rank (x) is supposed to oblige to me". This is getting out of hand, some people IWAYed to their rank, some spirit spam, some smiteball, but they ALL worked for it. Everyone must find their niche.

On another note, PVP is vastly more complex than PVE, there is no jump, no comparisons, being good at PVE means absolutely NOTHING in pvp. Period.

If you are rank 0, guess what, you deserve it, and every other rank for that matter. Even though IWAY has somewhat ruined that to an extent, its still the way it is, and everyone 'ranting' is just fighting a lost cause, the good will never oblige to the bad players, the rich will never oblige to the poor, this is how life is.

art_ · Feb 18, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by monk54321

being good at PVE means absolutely NOTHING in pvp. Period.

quoted for truth. It works the other way too. For example i know i can play a decent gale/shock axe warrior but if i was asked to tank mobs in the pve tombs i wouldnt know where to start.

mattjones527 · Feb 18, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by monk54321

being good at PVE means absolutely NOTHING in pvp. Period.

When I started playing GW my first PvE char was a monk, I played over 400hrs on that char actually monking, before I actually did solo farming. I had unlocked and used EVERY monk skill and had played virtually every type of build in PvE. But according to your statement I would be around the same level as someone who has played pvp for a week or less w/o pve experience. So in my opinion you are wrong, the pvp aspects of monking are slightly different, but in the end you are still trying to keep your team alive. At the time I may of not thought of icon swapping to hide energy or a few other small techniques but surely I did a better job then many of the new pvp monks. Also ive found it that many of the builds I had tested and used in pve I still use today in pvp, my healing builds worked then(at r0) that still work at r6(my current rank). Any 'good' monk in PvE understands energy management and who the prioties to keep alive are in given situations.

As far is rank is concerned, I think it is fine the way it is. If you want to get it, make freinds and then form a guild. If you absolutely must have rank and are too lazy to join/form a guild just do iway before its nerfed. It seems to me that rank is slightly scewed though, someone with little knowledge of 8v8 battles that just did iway to get there rank seem to know very little compared to people who got rank by other means. In the end you are just hurting yourseld by running iway IF you are new to 8v8 battles.

art_ · Feb 18, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattjones527

When I started playing GW my first PvE char was a monk, I played over 400hrs on that char actually monking, before I actually did solo farming. I had unlocked and used EVERY monk skill and had played virtually every type of build in PvE. But according to your statement I would be around the same level as someone who has played pvp for a week or less w/o pve experience. So in my opinion you are wrong, the pvp aspects of monking are slightly different, but in the end you are still trying to keep your team alive. At the time I may of not thought of icon swapping to hide energy or a few other small techniques but surely I did a better job then many of the new pvp monks. Also ive found it that many of the builds I had tested and used in pve I still use today in pvp, my healing builds worked then(at r0) that still work at r6(my current rank). Any 'good' monk in PvE understands energy management and who the prioties to keep alive are in given situations.

As far is rank is concerned, I think it is fine the way it is. If you want to get it, make freinds and then form a guild. If you absolutely must have rank and are too lazy to join/form a guild just do iway before its nerfed. It seems to me that rank is slightly scewed though, someone with little knowledge of 8v8 battles that just did iway to get there rank seem to know very little compared to people who got rank by other means. In the end you are just hurting yourseld by running iway IF you are new to 8v8 battles.

PvE monking is basicaly healing the tank with a lot of pure heals. PvP monking is far more complex. Also if you play with good teams in pve you would never have energy issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cecil Barracks

Lets try Hero's Ascent etc etc..

Well it seems a little silly for you to expect to be taken into a ranked group considering you have such little experience in pvp. I mean you just won't know what to do if you've never done it before, thats just a fact.

Dave83 · Feb 19, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Anet p***ed me off along time ago so I dont talk in pvp posts much because I get wound up but yes I agree with the OP. If you dont have some crappy emote which most (I say most, not all) players got from the same lame builds anyway and your guild doesnt pvp you are screwed. You get degraded to waiting ages and joining crap groups. The system is BS, this is why I dont pvp anymore.

Juicey Shake · Feb 19, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I like how people bitch about not having rank, and the majority of them are the ones who also bitch about how IWAY sucks and this and that.

Hey, ever thought of, oh, I don't know, STARTING an unranked group? Yeah? I did that with some fotm builds a while ago, started learning the maps, how to lead, etc.....

Don't think you can sit in town and wait for someone to just whisper you thinking you're the next best thing--- it's NOT going to happen! If you don't put the effort out to at least try you're going to get nowhere! And if you don't want to use iway or rspike or whatever flavor is consuming halls, well... forget about not wanting to and do it! These builds usually force little to no room for improvisions -- so even an unranked group can get the hang of it after a while.

mattjones527 · Feb 19, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

PvE monking is basicaly healing the tank with a lot of pure heals. PvP monking is far more complex. Also if you play with good teams in pve you would never have energy issues.

Have you ever played monk in a PUG in pve? Try it and I promise you very seldom does the tank control the aggro. Even before the AoE nerf the average PUG was full of idiots with no sense of aggro control. My point is that more times then not every one is taking damage. If you play with a good team then clearly energy should never be a problem. Better yet try monking in FoW with a team that has no sense of aggro control. Honestly I dont think pvp monking is all that more complex than pve monking. Other than basicly learning how to hide your energy and countering hexes theres no real difference. If you havent learned who are priorites on healing should still be monking in pve. Things like strafing back and forth against rangers, and moving out of AoE should all be learned in pve.

Cecil Barracks · Feb 19, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Don't get sarcastic Juicey, you ever think we've tried? These unranked people are easily left with a bad taste in their mouth after PVP. I've tried many-a-time to start a group, and it usually goes under because we can't find unranked people period. Ranked people generally don't care for our type of groups.

Its amazing how some people get so defensive when their fame is threatened.

Even Gaile said that the rank system was not meant to cause this segregation.

PS: We aren't "bitching" about not having rank, we are "bitching" about not getting to PVP because we don't have rank, or at least not rank 3.

Lady Lozza · Feb 19, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Well I'm going to try not to rant, but...

What are the problems with rank?
1) People seem to think it makes them leet, it doesn't.
2) People seem to think it is an excuse for flaming lower ranks, it isn't.
3) People seem to think it entitles them to win halls, it doesn't.

So what is really the problem here??? PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK IT DOES/MEANS X. The problem is with how people think, not the system.
I'm not saying that it is a perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect system but before you fly off the hook about how Anet has ruined your PvP experience, think about why rank exists in the first place - not what people have MADE it.

I've seen so many people posting about how IWAY has ruined tombs (HA), that IWAY should be nerfed, that it is a noob build, that rank means nothing if you played IWAY to get there, that only people who have played IWAY have high rank, etc. So let us clear a few things up:

1) Rank doesn't mean much, we all know that, but it does mean that you've played a lot so you know the maps, and you know the build(s) you usually play. Most ranked people actually know what the skills in their build do, they might not know much outside that but I can garantee you they know how their build works. This does not mean that they will necessarily work well in any random PUG.
2) IWAY is a PUG build, not a noob build. There is a distinct difference.
3) IWAY is beatable. You can beat it with balanced, you can beat it with spike. You can beat it with an unranked team. It is not hard. Because it is beatable the chances of it getting nerfed are LOW.
4) If you play IWAY you must not know anything about the game. Wrong, you know how to play IWAY. In fact if you play nothing but IWAY all the way to rank 12 I would say that you are pretty good at playing IWAY. You might not know much about anything else but I would certainly listen to your advice regarding IWAY (and similar) skills and builds.
5) Rank is cheapened by IWAY. What about smiteballs? Spikes? VIM? Do these cheapen rank too? IWAY is beatable. Period.
6) Not all players with rank have played IWAY, some have gone spike, and even balanced.

So why do you all complain about IWAY? You get beaten easily by it, but that is not the problem of IWAY, that is your problem. IWAY is a good PUG, that is what it is designed for. If you are in a balanced team or a spike you HAVE TO HAVE GOOD COMMUNICATION. In IWAY you don't. This is what makes it a good, quick team build. IWAY takes a team game and turns it into more of a 1v1 game: you do what you do and I do what I do. That doesn't make it any more or less sporting than any other team, and it certainly doesn't make it invinci.

NEWSFLASH: RANK ISN'T SUPPOSE TO BE EASY TO GET!

You hate PvP because you can't get into a decent balanced team, but evidently you don't want to work at it, and - for whatever reason - you don't want to play IWAY. In short you are lazy and unmotivated. Many players have sucked it in and played IWAY to the ranked levels because they knew they couldn't get a decent unranked non-IWAY PUG without it, or didn't want to wait around for hours on end to find one. They were willing to go the distance, they were willing to do something about it. If you refuse to make things better for yourself how can you expect that others will wave their wands and give you paradise?

NEWSFLASH: HALLS ISN'T SUPPOSE TO BE EASY TO WIN!

If you choose not to play IWAY, not to play FREQUENTLY with friends or guildies (focusing on one or two team builds), refuse to use vent or TS, if you choose to avoid HA altogether that is your choice. But don't rant about how Anet has ruined PvP for you. You have ruined PvP for yourself.

Cecil Barracks · Feb 19, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Lady Lozza, this isn't a topic about me liking IWAY or not. This topic is about lower ranked people getting disregarded in PVP because of their rank. I only mentioned IWAY because it pertained to my story. And I don't hate PVP because I can't get into a balanced team, infact I don't hate PVP at all. I hate the super elitists who think that they are the cream of the crop and can just abuse/ignore the lowering ranked. I don't want my rank to be easy to get either, you are missing the entire part. I had so much fun back in the day when rank wasn't an issue. If they were looking for a party, and someone needed you, there was none of this "EMOTE PLZ" crap. We just all had fun playing, and winning! Now that rank is a huge factor, unranked/low ranked are excluded from an entire part of the game.

Lazy and unmotivated? Maybe after a half-hour/hour of spamming for a party and nothing you get a little discouraged and decide to do something else. If that makes me lazy and unmotivated then so be it.

Lady Lozza · Feb 19, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Cecil, sorry if you though my rant was in response to your post, it was in response to a number of posts that have been made in this thread altogether.

Yes I know a lot of lower ranked players get disregarded and flamed in PvP because of their rank. I still put up with that sort of behaviour even though I have an emote. It was like back in the days when 15k armour was rare. Those who had it instantly thought it made them hot property, we all know that it doesn't.

If rank didn't exist there would still be elitist attitudes in HA but they would be distinguished by some other method, like: ONLY PLAYERS OF GUILDS IN TOP TEN. Things will NEVER be like they were back at the release of GW simply because there are so many more players now - who have come from other games - who have that elitist attitude. We can't change that. Anet can't change that. Yes this attitude makes the game less fun if you choose to pay attention to it. I don't. I stopped playing PUGs. I play with guildies and friends - with the occassional random - because I know what they are like to play with, I know I will have fun, win or loose.

If you choose not to play with friends or guildies, that is NOT Anet's problem, that is yours. The elitist attitude is not acceptable under any circumstances, but we choose whether we pay any attention to it or not.

Cecil Barracks · Feb 19, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

I'd love to play with my Guild...It's just we are a PvE guild. We are great at it! I love my guildmates too, we are all very close...it's just we don't PVP. Yes that's fortunate for me, and yes I seek to change that, but for the time being I'll have to find other means.

Lady Lozza · Feb 19, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Cecil, hopefully Factions and alliances will help you with that situation

In the meantime work on your guildies, pvp is fun with friends, and there are only so many times you can beat the game before it gets a little repetitive.

Minus Sign · Feb 19, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I started reading this as a pure PvE player wanting to know more about rank emotes. I hit the search button, and this is the post that comes up. I’ve learned two things about getting that cool emote I want:
1 If I want the goodie, I have to get it from PvP; sucks for me since I’ve spent so much time in PvE building my characters, but like its been said, there are only so many times you can beat this game before it gets repetitive. While I’d love to see an emote to demonstrate just how experienced I am at PvE, that’s not Anets intention in making this, one of the premiere Competitive Online Role Playing Games. That’s what Santa hats and Pumpkin heads are for.
2 Its going to take a while. I’m going to have to relearn everything about my characters, because I’m not playing an idiot AI; I’m fighting humans (sigh. Again. I thought life got easier as you got older.). I’m going to have to relearn how to use my toons for different situations. It’s going to be hard; potential nerfs may throw everything I know out of kilter, but if I want that emote, I’ma hafta do it.
3 I don’t want to (I’ll have to, but I don’t want to) be playing with the vast majority of people who have replied to this thread and their ilk who turn any discussion about rank into an instant flame war.

I want it. Its there and I’m going to go get it. What’s your excuse? Never mind; we already know it: it’s going to be hard; it’s going to take a long time, and I’m not going to like a lot of it. To me, that’s not an excuse; that’s the challenge. And after I get it, it’s not going to change how good or bad a player I am. Does this mean I’ll have to suffer a few (or a whole lot of) r3+ people kicking me out before I’m done? Yep. Is it going to be frustrating because I have trouble finding decent groups without that rank I’m aiming for? You betcha. Am I going to whine and groan when those people who (the vast majority of them at least) EARNED that rank through hard work and long hours of PvP kick me because I spent my time happily whittling away the hours on Green farms?

Grenth take me when I do!

I’m not going to speak anymore to the masses of you complaining about rank. I humbly suggest the rest of you stop as well. It’s a waste of time giving advice to those who only seek a handout. And I’m not going to speak to the R3s out there who use their rank as a power trip to dominate their arena groups. Most likely, gaining rank in Guild Wars is the crowning achievement of your life; I would not want to deride you by reminding you just how pathetic that makes you look to the rest of us. But to those out there who earned your rank and set it on the shelf, instead of having it tattooed onto your forehead, those who suffered through those PUGs and spent as many hours explaining their build and strategy to potential groups as they did actually playing it, training friends/guildies and power-leveling their toons so you could build decent teams, I have something to say: remember me in game.

If you’ll excuse me, I have a lot of research to do about IWAY; using it and countering. I’d best get my noob behind to work.

cleric · Feb 19, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

One thing i do not understand is that everyone who is ranked (me being 6 almost 7) had to go through this. now granted someone who started at the very beinging did not but in 2 months i have gotten to 6. I know someone who made 6 in under a month. She got with a good guild and worked with them. I will sometimes form unranked groups to help people but when i ask for them todo something in the bar they say i dont want to. You have to be open to learn. I am not saying i am the best in the game but i do know something about halls and builds.

NightOwl · Feb 19, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I don't find begging for groups for hours in HA to be "hard" or a "challange" at all. I find it annoying. If I want a challange I'll go pug THK. Were it merely difficult, I'd do my homework and learn how to play better. Honestly though, my play isn't the issue, it's that I rarely get the chance to do so.

monk54321 · Feb 19, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattjones527

Have you ever played monk in a PUG in pve? Try it and I promise you very seldom does the tank control the aggro. Even before the AoE nerf the average PUG was full of idiots with no sense of aggro control. My point is that more times then not every one is taking damage. If you play with a good team then clearly energy should never be a problem. Better yet try monking in FoW with a team that has no sense of aggro control. Honestly I dont think pvp monking is all that more complex than pve monking. Other than basicly learning how to hide your energy and countering hexes theres no real difference. If you havent learned who are priorites on healing should still be monking in pve. Things like strafing back and forth against rangers, and moving out of AoE should all be learned in pve.

Sir, let me inform you, you are exactly why rx+ people don't want rank0 people in their group. Rather than wasting my time going into this, I will repeat myself once again and hopefully this time it will get into your head.

PVE is NOT PVP, there is NO comparison, at all, whatsoever. Different Games.

PVE characters don't think & attack your weaknesses, ever, infact.. They do the same thing, over and over...and over and over...

In (high end) PVP, monking is a complex mesh of energy management, preprotting, and reaction time. In PVP everything is situtional because of the constantly evolving environment and tactics of the opposing team, in PVE there is NONE of this. Nothing changes, you fight x mob, next time you go to x mob he'll be casting the same spells/skills doing the same thing.

Btw, This isn't an opinion, PVE and PVP are too different too compare.