Curse

Lady Lozza · Jul 23, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Fire Islands, SF, Unwaking (explorable), Raisu, the majority of mobs here are lvl20+ and that doesn't include the bosses. Yet these areas are not "high lvl".

Sab · Jul 23, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

So 90% of people don't want to do quests. Ok, fair enough, farming is cool. My point is that along comes someone who wants to do quests, they can't go with the guild for whatever reason. They are there to explore, get XP, whatever. There is a team going in advertising to do x quest or x number of quests, but they can't possibly take a mesmer, their gimmick build specifies a certain team and mesmer isn't in that. The problem is that now we have 90% gimmick/farming builds and 10% gimmick/I can't think for myself builds.

ToPK was a poor example because it primarily a farming ground, there are no quests involved. However places like SF, the highend missions in the Ring of Fire, etc have all gone the SAME way. If you are there for farming you use gimmick build X, if you are there for questing/missions, you use gimmick buid Y. Players have had plenty of time and zero restrictions in order to create the "Y" build and so now no one will take anything else. Sometimes you can take henchie but sometimes you can't. So what on earth does that little mesmer/assassin/ritualist do? Well they can't do too much now can they? They don't fit into build "Y" so they just have to wait and wait and wait and hope that their guild and friends will have some free time the next time they are online.

Solution: Form your own team, make up your own objectives. Seeing as there are so many people plagued by this cookie-cutter problem, I'm sure you can fill up your party with like-minded people easily enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

PvE is generally a static environment. We know we are going to face the same foes in the same areas over and over again. This doesn't change just because it is a high level area. Yes, PvE is MADE for gimmick builds, I don't dispute that fact. But what do people need in order to perfect gimmick builds? Time, practice, patience. Why is it that a gimmick build has yet to be found for clearing out the whole of UW? TIME. We can't just keep practising until we get it perfect, favour prevents that.

The reason that no gimmick builds exist for clearing all of UW is because there is no incentive to create one.

People create gimmicks to obtain a reward efficiently - whether it's greens in SF/Tombs, Ectos and Shards in UW/FoW, or Gold items from chest runs. What rewards exist for clearing UW? Some XP, some Ectos, maybe a gold item or two. There are much more efficient ways of obtaining any of the above. Of course, a reward for clearing UW is quiet self-satisfaction, but chances are, if you're looking for that, you won't be running B/P.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Restrictions give players something to strive for. Remove those restrictions and two things will happen:
1) the market will be flooded with ecto and shards because now ALL districts can farm at the same time.
2) gimmick builds will exist for doing quests in both areas and if you don't fit into either of those builds you can kiss your FoW armour goodbye because it will be a bun fight to get a team (no one wants to join if you aren't running THE build, and you can't join because your profession isn't needed) to get to the Forge Master.
I also imagine that many districts will be depopulated as the centre of civilisation moves to ToA and no one bothers with quests and missions any more.

Opening UW/FoW does not necessarily mean that everybody will be farming it 24/7. As long as there are rewards for doing quests/missions, people will do them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

You say restriction was always a problem, but I find it ironic that none of you actually started complaining (telling others who were doing so to "DEAL") until your region no longer held favour 9 times out of 10.
I find it interesting that Uw/FoW/elite missions are considered "high level" areas, while many areas with max. enemies are not. Why? We've not had enough access to perfect team builds to conquer the area successfully every single time.

People started to notice the flaws in the Favor system after they were affected by those flaws.

And regarding the definition of high-level, I consider areas high level if they were to designed to provide a challenge greater than the "normal" areas.

Sir Mad · Jul 23, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I may add that FoW/UW are already opened 90% of the time to a large part of the players: Europe (and I'm saying this as an european). But what did european farmers to go to FoW? Nothing, for most of them don't play HA. The same goes for elite missions. My alliance(s) hold Cavalon during 2 months or so. During this time I went 2 times to the Deep. Period. Most of the factions farmers of the alliance (those who sould "deserve" to go to the Deep then) didn't get there more than a couple of times, Some of them never. They did ferry people to the Deep but never played it, for various reasons.

The system is messed up because in none of those 2 cases those who actually gained access to the special places are not those who get there.

So yes,

/signed

Sab · Jul 23, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Some points I've haven't replied to yet:

- Challenge missions aren't popular not because that they're open to all, but because they're simply not fun. The missions are pure grind, with no sense of exploration, no sense of achievement, and provides a petty reward at the end. I would dislike them just as much if they were tied to the system of Elite missions and Alliances.

- As for unique items losing their value, I'd think that perfect items will still be rare, desirable and something to work for. Obtaining something like FoW armour is a challenge, restricted mission or not, and it is within ANet's power to adjust drop rates if they see that it is not enough of a challenge.

- For those who are adament that there you must work to gain access to specific missions, I ask for some suggestions on how this can be implemented.

If gaining access is easy, like something as simple as completing a quest, then what's the point? It's not much different from having the missions open all the time.

If gaining access is hard, like obtaining a large amount of faction (using the term "hard" in a loose sense), then that will exclude a large number of players from playing the mission, players who otherwise would deserve entry.

Perhaps ideas on restriction systems should be an entirely different thread, but I'd like to hear any suggestions you may have here in this one.

NinjaKai · Jul 23, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

You can access the FoW and UW from Cantha.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 23, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

/Signed, for "No PvE Content Restriction in Nightfall"
If that is not possible, at least make them less restrictive.

boenan · Jul 23, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

And here I thought this thread would be about that ridiculous gate system in Factions...

i disagree with this
the gate system is a great idea.

as far as the Deep is concerned. it was a means to reward alliances that chose to farm faction. that is all. Access to an area that is otherwise unknown to any other guild(s) that did not take the initiative to farm-farm-farm. It gave purpose to choose a side and to fight for it.... the Deep being Alliance controlled (as well as alliance controlled towns) serve their purpose, and should NOT retroactively be changed.

as far as FoW/UW is concerned. it was a means to reward a group of players under their territory with areas that would otherwise be locked. Someone had mentioned Japan and Taiwan never having favor. This is true... but the incentive to form a group to win HoH is still there. I think that territory controlled locations are also a very key aspect of the original game, and should not be changed.

now, the whole point of this discussion was that these specifically controlled areas are dated and should be changed. I completely disagree. We have become accustomed to the rules that regulate entry into these zones, why change them now?
to make these special areas open to everyone?

i do believe that there should be zones that are open to everyone (i.e. Sorrow's Furnace) and i also believe there should be zones that are open to only a select few...

I firmly believe that we should have zones that are opened ONLY to people who can pass challenges to reach those locations.

Quote:

I'd be more interested in an area that can be accessed more easily, but is retardedly hard to complete.

i agree with this, and many others do as well.

WasAGuest · Jul 23, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I'm missing something from your point; could you explain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by boenan

as far as the Deep is concerned. it was a means to reward alliances that chose to farm faction. that is all. Access to an area that is otherwise unknown to any other guild(s) that did not take the initiative to farm-farm-farm. It gave purpose to choose a side and to fight for it.... the Deep being Alliance controlled (as well as alliance controlled towns) serve their purpose, and should NOT retroactively be changed.

How is farming even related to fighting? And how is farming content (which is the point of wanting these areas to finally be "fixed" as Anet has said they were going to do)? These are questions, not flames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boenan

as far as FoW/UW is concerned. it was a means to reward a group of players under their territory with areas that would otherwise be locked. Someone had mentioned Japan and Taiwan never having favor. This is true... but the incentive to form a group to win HoH is still there. I think that territory controlled locations are also a very key aspect of the original game, and should not be changed.

So PvPers go win HoH and then run of to do quests in FoW/UW? I don't see anyone doing that... Maybe I'm wrong here, but from what I have read in these forums in the past, those winning HoH have little or no desire to head off to these end game PvE areas to quest/adventure/farm (whatever) after having won HoH. I'll also add from my point of view, I have no desire whatsoever to partake in GW PvP (I do not enjoy it at all) even if it meant opening FoW/UW for my entire guild.
Two things I do not understand lately:
Why is it, it seems PvPers want PvEers to play PvP so badly? Is there a lack of players or something? And what does PvP in the HoH have to do with anything about PvE other than lock out much needed content? I do not understand these issues. Perhaps if someone would take the time to explain them, I could "get it".

Quote:

Originally Posted by boenan

i agree with this, and many others do as well.

Again and a point of why? PvE has nothing to do with PvP or HoH, so why is there a desire to lock out PvE content?

PS. Not picking on you boenan. I replied to your post as it was well written and am hoping for an answer as well written and thought out as the post I replied too.

GUE Tech · Jul 23, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

And here I thought this thread would be about that ridiculous gate system in Factions...

Yes. That is far more annoying than the OP's complaint.

Elite missions: Anyone can get in easily.
UW/Fow: I agree, the favor thing is a bother.

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 23, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

/not signed.

I'm not a fan of the whole "Faction" thing. I see all of these guilds recruiting for FFs just so they can hold they towns they have, or move up the faction ladder. What you end up with are a bunch of people becoming slaves to the FF sweat-shops & they rarely have the time to enjoy the fruits of their rewards.

I don't see the Favor system being too flawed, except that it favors regions with the higher number of experienced of GW players. Before Factions came out, the favor time was fairly well split between NA, EU, and Korea. Now it's mostly NA & EU.

But, having restricted access areas are a good idea. It cuts down on the deflation rate of rare high-end weapons, area only items (such as Ecto & shards) It's just the way they've been implemented that's the problem.

the red hand · Jul 24, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

How about we keep the already installed systems and add one for nightfall? The thing is you WONT need that certain alliance or favor to ACCESS those areas! If you DO have that particular advantage though, your drop rates are increased. This still leaves incentive for players to strive to reach that high goal, yet lessens the necessity.

jackie · Jul 24, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

/Signed

*Japan/Taiwan don't seem to get much Favour at all...

*Elite Mission concept is too elitist, although now it doesn't worry us anymore thx for taxis

|| Like some have already mentioned, to make some high-end area not too easy to reach, a legendary chain-quest idea is always good.

Longasc · Jul 24, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

/signed

Though I do not worry about a few places.

I want much more PvE content in general: Despite being filled so that mobs almost trampled over each other, Cantha felt too small for me. No reason to restrict content if there is already not enough.

Something like the Pre-Searing Catacombs and SF would not hurt in Nightfall.

I am also a bit concernced that Cantha will remain that small - after all, they are on a schedule, Chapter 3 is on its way and 4 according to their alternating system is in development, too.

Lady Lozza · Jul 24, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

The reason that no gimmick builds exist for clearing all of UW is because there is no incentive to create one.

People create gimmicks to obtain a reward efficiently - whether it's greens in SF/Tombs, Ectos and Shards in UW/FoW, or Gold items from chest runs. What rewards exist for clearing UW? Some XP, some Ectos, maybe a gold item or two. There are much more efficient ways of obtaining any of the above. Of course, a reward for clearing UW is quiet self-satisfaction, but chances are, if you're looking for that, you won't be running B/P.

I disagree with this. Farming also provides an incentive to clear the entire of UW. IME the best place for ecto drops is the chaos planes, and this area is simply a pain in the butt to get to without a full, or near full team. If you go that far why not finish it? The XP you gain from the quests is more than worth it, in fact it was UW where I tried to "lvl" my mesmer after she had finished the game.

So let's assume that a group wants to do UW to do all the quests. It's a challenge to clear UW afterall (the first 3 times you do it at any rate). Just like people showing up in Deldrimor want to do the SF quests. But of that 10% standing in the warcamp looking for the quest group there are going to be good amount of players who miss out on getting one of those rare spots. Why? Because the quest groups run gimmick builds too. It's not a 5 man farming team, but it has the same uncompromising cookie-cutter stucture as a farming team. They want nukers and monks and warriors, period. For those of us lucky enough to have guildies and friends willing to help them out even though they have done x quest a billion times, it is never going to be a problem. But there really aren't all that many of us with nice guildies and friends out there.
So what do you think is going to happen to skill point hunters should FoW and UW be free to all? They will take proven build X and to buggery with anyone else. Nevermind that the challenge is actually to clear the map with a "non-I looked up Guru and this team clears UW best all the time" build.
All mesmer UW run = challenge. Novelty build in difficult map = challenge. Cookie-cutter build because it has been proven to work != challenge. It doesn't even equal fun. Yet players of small guilds/no guild/out of kilter - timewise guilds will never have the opportunity to mount a real challenge in the UW/FoW because they just don't have numbers or the time. Sure, PUGs need a way to make sure that they do the best they can, but there are so many better ways to do this than by using cookie-cutter builds.

The restriction at the moment places a small amount of pressure on the team to perform. Afterall, they might not have favour when they finish. So instead of blindly following build X, decent teams sit down and talk about how they are going to approach the map. Free for all, means it won't matter if they fail, it isn't like it is all that expensive (when split between 8 players) so the amount of thought they put into the team and the build and their approach will be sub-zero. The players will not have fun because the moment communication breaks completely down (probably soon after entry) there will be name calling across the channel, after this has gone on a little while there will be rage quits, but hey, not like it matters anymore as they can go back and just grab another member.

sassoonssamson · Jul 24, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

i agree they shouls remove restrictions , make the missions difficult and challenging

let everyone enjoy what they paid for

Sab · Jul 24, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

I disagree with this. Farming also provides an incentive to clear the entire of UW. IME the best place for ecto drops is the chaos planes, and this area is simply a pain in the butt to get to without a full, or near full team. If you go that far why not finish it? The XP you gain from the quests is more than worth it, in fact it was UW where I tried to "lvl" my mesmer after she had finished the game.

Based on my experiences, I hold that two-man Smite runs will yield more ecto over time than a full party farming the Chaos Planes (gimmick or not). Whether or not that's actually the case (haven't crunched any numbers), at least a two-man run is quicker and more convenient than a full-party run.

As for XP, solo farming Trolls is easier, and again, more convenient than questing in UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

So let's assume that a group wants to do UW to do all the quests. It's a challenge to clear UW afterall (the first 3 times you do it at any rate). Just like people showing up in Deldrimor want to do the SF quests. But of that 10% standing in the warcamp looking for the quest group there are going to be good amount of players who miss out on getting one of those rare spots. Why? Because the quest groups run gimmick builds too. It's not a 5 man farming team, but it has the same uncompromising cookie-cutter stucture as a farming team. They want nukers and monks and warriors, period. For those of us lucky enough to have guildies and friends willing to help them out even though they have done x quest a billion times, it is never going to be a problem. But there really aren't all that many of us with nice guildies and friends out there.

So what do you think is going to happen to skill point hunters should FoW and UW be free to all? They will take proven build X and to buggery with anyone else. Nevermind that the challenge is actually to clear the map with a "non-I looked up Guru and this team clears UW best all the time" build.
All mesmer UW run = challenge. Novelty build in difficult map = challenge. Cookie-cutter build because it has been proven to work != challenge. It doesn't even equal fun. Yet players of small guilds/no guild/out of kilter - timewise guilds will never have the opportunity to mount a real challenge in the UW/FoW because they just don't have numbers or the time. Sure, PUGs need a way to make sure that they do the best they can, but there are so many better ways to do this than by using cookie-cutter builds.

Like I said, if this is a big problem which affects a lot of people, then why don't these people form their own groups? Given how widespread the situation is, surely they can find others with the same objectives as them.

And another point, sometimes people are just looking for fun, and sometimes running gimmick is fun for them. Not everybody plays for a challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

The restriction at the moment places a small amount of pressure on the team to perform. Afterall, they might not have favour when they finish. So instead of blindly following build X, decent teams sit down and talk about how they are going to approach the map. Free for all, means it won't matter if they fail, it isn't like it is all that expensive (when split between 8 players) so the amount of thought they put into the team and the build and their approach will be sub-zero. The players will not have fun because the moment communication breaks completely down (probably soon after entry) there will be name calling across the channel, after this has gone on a little while there will be rage quits, but hey, not like it matters anymore as they can go back and just grab another member.

This deals with forming a decent PUGs, and is another topic entirely. If a PUG breaks down, I wouldn't blame it on the fact that a mission is open for all - instead, I'd blame it on the leader of the party who was careless in selecting players for the group.

Lady Lozza · Jul 24, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuxA

Based on my experiences, I hold that two-man Smite runs will yield more ecto over time than a full party farming the Chaos Planes (gimmick or not). Whether or not that's actually the case (haven't crunched any numbers), at least a two-man run is quicker and more convenient than a full-party run.

As for XP, solo farming Trolls is easier, and again, more convenient than questing in UW.

Yes, but not all professions easily farm trolls, so for some professions large xp quests in UW/FoW are just the thing. Furthermore not all players like playing alone, solo, so, once again, a UW/FoW team is something which will award large amount of xp for doing something that isn't boring and repeatitive.

I also agree that a smite run is quick and that over time it will yield more ecto. Afterall, it takes a little while to get ot the chaos planes in the first place. For a single run though, the chaso planes do (in my experience) drop more ecto than smites. XP and ecto are perfect reasons to attempt UW, and probably the only ones outside of novelty guild teams.

Quote:

Like I said, if this is a big problem which affects a lot of people, then why don't these people form their own groups? Given how widespread the situation is, surely they can find others with the same objectives as them.

And another point, sometimes people are just looking for fun, and sometimes running gimmick is fun for them. Not everybody plays for a challenge.

Like I said, many people don't want to be a part of a group that isn't following a certain gimmick. Trying to get a full 8 can be a pain, at least in missions we have the option of henchie, an option which isn't open to UW/FoW players.

Simply because a lot of players complain about how much they don't like cookie-cutter builds doesn't mean they have the knowledge nor even desire to put a team together. Furthermore, guru is such a small proportion of the GW population. There is no garantee that at any one time there is going to be enough people frustrated with the "nuker + tank + healer" type mentality of the vast majority of players to form a full working team.

Once again, fun and gimmick builds do work together, I never said they didn't. But you don't go into clear UW/FoW, or do all the quests on the type of gimmick builds that most people actually have fun with. What is fun about a warrior yelling heal me, a nuker scattering the smites with AoE, and a frustrated monk constantly running out of energy?

Quote:

This deals with forming a decent PUGs, and is another topic entirely. If a PUG breaks down, I wouldn't blame it on the fact that a mission is open for all - instead, I'd blame it on the leader of the party who was careless in selecting players for the group.

And there is zero incentive for being careful if you can easily do over. Which was MY point.

The first time I ever went to UW the PUG I went with insisted that everyone be on teamspeak, they carefully explained everything, provided a graphic demonstration of how nasty some of the creatures were, and were generally very patient. One player was kicked from the team just before we went in, because he refused to use ts. That was his choice, but before he was kicked he was told in no uncertain terms that the team ran with ts because there was no garantee that Europe would have favour if we stuffed up. At that stage Europe had favour for maybe an hour or so on a daily/semi-daily basis.

Now back to that 90% (and possibly more) we've been ignoring.

Let's face the facts, pugs/gimmicks aside, the major reason that everyone wants FoW/UW open for all has absolutely nothing to do with the quests and the XP to be gained from the area. It has nothing to do with the challenge either. People just want to farm 24-7. This will drop ecto and shard prices, and make FoW armour more of a joke than it already is. So Anet tries to decrease the drop rate and ecto and shard prices will soar, increase drop rate again and they will plummit, and the ridiculous fluctuations will frustrate everyone.

Sab · Jul 24, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Simply because a lot of players complain about how much they don't like cookie-cutter builds doesn't mean they have the knowledge nor even desire to put a team together. Furthermore, guru is such a small proportion of the GW population. There is no garantee that at any one time there is going to be enough people frustrated with the "nuker + tank + healer" type mentality of the vast majority of players to form a full working team.

To those people I say: Be patient, learn how to put together a decent PUG and do it. It is fully within their grasp to take action - if they just sit there and complain, then I offer no sympathy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

And there is zero incentive for being careful if you can easily do over. Which was MY point.

The first time I ever went to UW the PUG I went with insisted that everyone be on teamspeak, they carefully explained everything, provided a graphic demonstration of how nasty some of the creatures were, and were generally very patient. One player was kicked from the team just before we went in, because he refused to use ts.

I, for one, would not enjoy this PUG you described. I like to explore on my own, and when I make mistakes, I don't want to be severly punished for doing so.

If I was on the Europe servers at that time, it basically meant I could do none of the above. I would've had to stick to what worked or I would be kicked out for the rest of the day. So much for discouraging cookie-cutters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Let's face the facts, pugs/gimmicks aside, the major reason that everyone wants FoW/UW open for all has absolutely nothing to do with the quests and the XP to be gained from the area. It has nothing to do with the challenge either. People just want to farm 24-7. This will drop ecto and shard prices, and make FoW armour more of a joke than it already is. So Anet tries to decrease the drop rate and ecto and shard prices will soar, increase drop rate again and they will plummit, and the ridiculous fluctuations will frustrate everyone.

Glad we're getting to something more relevant to this thread than gimmicks and XP.

Markets fluctuate - that's what they do. If ANet wanted stability in the market, Guild Wars would not have a player-based economy.