Curse

Falrow · Jul 21, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

God this topic is stupid. They do not do stealth updates on purpose just to make us go "WTF???" You need to calm down and relax on the caps....

They forget to add things by accident.....and your Greater Conflagration example was debunked above. Get over it and realize they tell you as much as they have documented. If you think its a simple thing to document every little change you make just so that the playerbase knows every little thing without ever forgetting anything, then you've never written a single simple program in your life and have no idea what you are talking about.

Stupid topic.....

Firstly I think the caps were warrented, and it's not like it hurts your eyes.

Secondly, we have covered that they make mistakes, we have also covered that it's fine that they make mistakes, but they should be avoided at all costs when it comes to PvP gameplay relevant things.

Thirdly, the problem isn't that they make mistakes, it's that they don't admit to them. They should post the change to 3 seconds in the update logs TODAY so that people can atleast get all the skill listing in different place on the same page. And the other updates that should have been posted but slipped through the cracks can easily be posted later with an apology that they missed it earlier.

salaboB · Jul 21, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falrow

Thirdly, the problem isn't that they make mistakes, it's that they don't admit to them. They should post the change to 3 seconds in the update logs TODAY so that people can atleast get all the skill listing in different place on the same page. And the other updates that should have been posted but slipped through the cracks can easily be posted later with an apology that they missed it earlier.

Since that last update (Or sometime before it, hard to say), a new shout range "within earshot" has shown up in-game. Watch Yourself!, Victory is Mine!, Shields up!, and To the Limit! all have been modified without notification.

The range is about 50% farther than "In the Area". I'm guessing it slipped through at the same time as this last change, but in any case it also hasn't been admitted.

Falrow · Jul 21, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by salaboB

Since that last update (Or sometime before it, hard to say), a new shout range "within earshot" has shown up in-game. Watch Yourself!, Victory is Mine!, Shields up!, and To the Limit! all have been modified without notification.

The range is about 50% farther than "In the Area". I'm guessing it slipped through at the same time as this last change, but in any case it also hasn't been admitted.

Does that mean the actual range of Shield Up! changed? Or is it simply a wording issue?

If it's just wording I wouldn't really care if that was posted or not, doesn't effect gameplay. But if the range on the skills was changed then it should have DEFINITLY been posted.

Mercury Angel · Jul 21, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=116518
Of course, for that one, it was never actually decided whether it was a change, or merely a description fix to match the actual performance.

Speaking of which, Gaile never did post in that topic again<_<
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=26

unienaule · Jul 21, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Which brings us to the real issue here:

ANet almost NEVER admits to being wrong, or apologizes.

I have no idea what can be done about this.

Metanoia · Jul 21, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

According to GW.net's skill database, Expel Hexes is a skill. Stealth patch by Anet? A Conspiracy!? Anet Griefing loyal fans!?! Sick sadistic mind-games!?!?

... no, a typo in a fan-written database.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Grey

Why, yes, you're right! The description change --judging from existing databases and skill listings -- is uncontrovertible, so there's one thing cleared up. (Silly me. ) I have the question out to get a full answer, and I think I can post the details today. Thanks so much for the detective work and patience while we figure this one out.

... or perhaps not.

Ghull Ka · Jul 22, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

This thread rules. (Working second shift, however, sucks.)

The truth is out there! Keep looking and find out when it changed! Check the Prima Guide! What about the revision histories of the databases for the gwfreaks.com build creator program?

Kalki · Jul 23, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Which brings us to the real issue here:

ANet almost NEVER admits to being wrong, or apologizes.

I have no idea what can be done about this.

Wait a second here. You want them to apologise when they provide game updates on a regular basis? You want them to apologise when they're working their asses off for a game they love? God... I hope whereever you work the customers or your boss doesn't expect you to apologize 100 times a day for every small little mistake you made.

I can see it now...

"Here's your french fries sir, but they're not as crispy as they were yesterday, and I could've given you a bigger smile when you approached the counter." *bangs self in head with fist*

"I'm so sorry! Please forgive me! Whip me if you like... *hands customer a whip* My boss is over there if you'd like to complain. I certainly deserve a cut in pay!"

Bugs are occasionally introduced. Mistakes are occasionally made. But remember one thing. Theu are supporting this game with free updates, and they really don't have to. They could just take the money and run like EA, or add a monthly fee and say "if you want updates, pay for them" like Blizzard does. Be grateful for what you're getting damnit. So many people here expect apologies for the every small mistake, and don't give thanks for anything Anet does really make me sick to my stomach. But hey they got your 50$ why should you thank them? Because it's courtesy. That's why. Honestly, if I'm describing you with what I wrote above you're a horrible person and really need to take a long look in the mirror someday.

By the way the update notes for pet DP and shouts have been updated, and now include the information on this latest and already infamous "stealth update".

How many of you constant complainers will apologise to Anet for treating them like crooks, and say thank you?

WhiteZombie · Jul 23, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

These skills were used heavily back in the age of spirit spam, so let's not say they were never used.

...and winter pwns in hells precipice.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 23, 2006, 11:46 AM // 11:46

I hereby nominate this thread for the "Most Confused Thread Ever on GW" award.

Falrow · Jul 23, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

Wait a second here. You want them to apologise when they provide game updates on a regular basis? You want them to apologise when they're working their asses off for a game they love? God... I hope whereever you work the customers or your boss doesn't expect you to apologize 100 times a day for every small little mistake you made.

I can see it now...

"Here's your french fries sir, but they're not as crispy as they were yesterday, and I could've given you a bigger smile when you approached the counter." *bangs self in head with fist*

"I'm so sorry! Please forgive me! Whip me if you like... *hands customer a whip* My boss is over there if you'd like to complain. I certainly deserve a cut in pay!"

Bugs are occasionally introduced. Mistakes are occasionally made. But remember one thing. Theu are supporting this game with free updates, and they really don't have to. They could just take the money and run like EA, or add a monthly fee and say "if you want updates, pay for them" like Blizzard does. Be grateful for what you're getting damnit. So many people here expect apologies for the every small mistake, and don't give thanks for anything Anet does really make me sick to my stomach. But hey they got your 50$ why should you thank them? Because it's courtesy. That's why. Honestly, if I'm describing you with what I wrote above you're a horrible person and really need to take a long look in the mirror someday.

By the way the update notes for pet DP and shouts have been updated, and now include the information on this latest and already infamous "stealth update".

How many of you constant complainers will apologise to Anet for treating them like crooks, and say thank you?

That Update the just posted is exactly what I was asking for. They probably havn't realised yet that they missed the changes for GC, not they they are huge changes anyways.

It's well known that ArenaNet refuses to admit mistakes. They just don't. Admiting your mistake is THE golden rule of custommer service. They realised this and have posted ammendments to the update notes, which is all I've really been asking for. All that I ask now is that they keep these update amendments comming with other things they have missed in the past, like GC. Or things they miss in the future.

I'm not asking for appologies, I'm asking them to fix their mistakes.

Metanoia · Jul 23, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

You did see that Gaile quote, right? Izzy also apologises whenever he spots mistakes (reference: Weapon of Choice#40). So, please stop with the "Anet never admits they're wrong" crap. It's not true, they do.

Gaile Gray · Jul 24, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Thank you, Beat, Kalki, Metanoia, and others -- for the moments of clarity you add to a thread that just makes me shake my head.

The update notes are as complete as we can make them.
We don't leave things out because we're trying to pull something sneaky -- a dozen programmers and sometimes several weeks' of work can result in a missing line in the text. Accident, pure and simple.
There are no "rogue programmers" at ArenaNet doing whatever you'd suggest they were doing by using such a weird choice of words.
We didn't "just post" the updated notes, and the amendment was decidedly not a result of this thread.
"Without notifying us" sounds aggressive and arrogant. We provide thorough notes, as thorough as we are able. But please don't come to think that we are obligated to do so. We're not an government entity that must give notification on point of law, nor a utility that is required to notify you before they raise your electricity rates. Our form of notification is thorough, and in truth it costs us many staff hours to put it together. It is our intention that our system of update notes will always be as complete as possible. But with all due respect, please don't go there with that "entitlement thing."
What form of apology would you like? Perhaps you have leapt to that erroneous statement without reading the many times we've said "We apologize" or "We are sorry" or the other words we have used to make it clear that we are, in fact, issuing an apology.
In Ancient Rome, a general might fall on his sword for making an error that resulted in his army's defeat. I think a few words missed, or an update line later added, isn't worth quite such a level of drama.
Apparently, others would disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

How many of you constant complainers will apologise to Anet for treating them like crooks, and say thank you?

How many times has that happend by actual count?
Answer: Never that I've seen. Ever.

The bottom line, all kidding aside, is that we'll always try for perfection. And, being human and not dieties, we'll fail. We hope that players and fans will understand that fact and, looking to themselves and their shared humanness, forgive us when we make an error.

NightOwl · Jul 24, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Gaile, I think you make some valid points, however I disagree with you on one piece of that.

"We provide thorough notes, as thorough as we are able. But please don't come to think that we are obligated to do so."

As Guild Wars is a product that people pay for, it is unlikely that the playerbase would stick around en masse if everytime a patch occurred nobody knew what was going on. I know that I certainly wouldn't play a game that interminently changed various mechanics and left me guessing as to why my character went from good to garbage. I do believe that the playerbase is entitled to patch notes, as without them, MMOs would lose too many players out of sheer frustration and confusion.

This thread is silly in general though, I've never played an MMO (and I've played quite a few) that didn't miss something from time to time on the patch notes. Absurd to envision some conspiracy trying to slip things in on people. Btw, the boogeyman is in the closet, be careful or he'll get ya!

Gaile Gray · Jul 24, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl

Gaile, I think you make some valid points, however I disagree with you on one piece of that.

"We provide thorough notes, as thorough as we are able. But please don't come to think that we are obligated to do so."

As Guild Wars is a product that people pay for, it is unlikely that the playerbase would stick around en masse if everytime a patch occurred nobody knew what was going on. I know that I certainly wouldn't play a game that interminently changed various mechanics and left me guessing as to why my character went from good to garbage. I do believe that the playerbase is entitled to patch notes, as without them, MMOs would lose too many players out of sheer frustration and confusion.

This thread is silly in general though, I've never played an MMO (and I've played quite a few) that didn't miss something from time to time on the patch notes. Absurd to envision some conspiracy trying to slip things in on people. Btw, the boogeyman is in the closet, be careful or he'll get ya!

Oh, I fully agree that notes are a good thing, and are very advised. But my background in the gaming industry is really long -- as journalist, as fansite admin, as writer -- and I know that there are some companies (probably the majority, really) that make only a half-hearted attempt at note building. Now that I'm on the other side of the equation, the company side and not the observer side, I cannot help but marvel at the completeness of the GW notes and at the very honest attempt to make them as clear, as complete, and as current as possible.

So I don't know -- personally I think "entitlement" is rather too strong a word. I'd prefer to say that a mutually respectful relationship makes such a thing highly desirable, a good thing, a worthwhile effort, a benefit to all... yes, for sure. In truth, there have been, and are, companies that don't make half the effort that we make... or take half the flak when a line is missed.

milias · Jul 24, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

How many times has that happend by actual count?
Answer: Never that I've seen. Ever.

Me me me! You forgot me Gaile!

*hugs Gaile*

Falrow · Jul 24, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Suppressed

I sincery hope you read this Gaile, and I hope you understand where I am coming from.

While the update was obviously not caused by this thread, considering in substance they are completely disimilar(they would have noted the undocumented change to GC), it was motivated by other threads. Proving that posting threads like this is indeed important and needed.

Also, I believe that this thread was never insulting in it's intent or implication. Most if not all negative posts were constructive criticism. My motivation for starting this thread was two-fold:

1. Try to find the actual date of the change to a 3 second activation. As I posted repeatedly asking people if they knew the date of the change, which no one seems to.
2. Bring the change into view of the community.

If you don't believe me on either of these things, look at the topic and the OP. I'm asking a question.

Having ArenaNet make ammendments to the update notes was at best a pipe dream. But it is the only viable way to get all the fan skill listings all with the same update with one simple page update. It had never been done before this thread was posted, but hopefully will be done regularly in the future.

The point of this thread, and others like it, is simple. Why keep doing a great job if no one cares about the mistakes that you make? If you make 1 mistake and no one notices, what's preventing you from making 10 mistakes and no one noticing? How about 100 mistakes without a whisper? Where would the mistakes end if no one ever noticed them?

Thus by that logic, pointing out mistakes that no one else has noticed prevents the game from getting worse, or eventually failing.

ArenaNet is probably the single best game development company I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. They honestly care about community, write revolutionnary code simply because thats the right way to do it. Look at the update system. That's a peice of pure genious. They could have used a simple torrent system like WoW if they wanted, but they pushed to make a high-quality peice of code simply because it's the best way to do it.

Honestly ArenaNet is my favorite dev company. I'd praise you guys day and night if I had the time, because there are many things that deserve praise. But I prefer to show my praise simply by pre-ordering every game you have released withing weeks of it being available

But there are already tons of people praising you, simply by buying 2 million copies of your games. Thus I endevor to make your games better by helping you and constructively pointing out your mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

How many of you constant complainers will apologise to Anet for treating them like crooks, and say thank you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

How many times has that happend by actual count?
Answer: Never that I've seen. Ever.

They have all said thank you by buying GW:Factions, and very few of them demanded a refund. Honestly if people have a choice between critisicm and mindless praise, whats going to be the outcome? Thats the simple reason why you see more complaint threads then praise threads. The people wouldn't post about if they didn't care.