Curse

arcanemacabre · Jul 22, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I sincerely loved the storyline in Prohpecies. Parts were repetitive, like the constant betrayals, but beyond that, it was actually pretty good. The voice acting and dialogue in general was pretty much crap, though, agreed there.

Factions, well, let's just say you can tell they didn't spend much time on the storyline. The overall plot was decent, but it was just simplistic. In Prophecies, it seemed like they jammed a lot of lore and backstory into it so that you would always have something to talk about. In Factions, well, it's just lacking.

SPOILER ALERT--

Though I do give a spoiler warning, this is really about the fact they're spoilers more than anything. The 'spoiler' in Prophecies seems just so much better. The Lich, the Titans, and Rurik all gave a good twist and was quite entertaining. In Factions, there is no good twist, at all. The only thing you don't really see coming is Togo, and honestly, it didn't even matter, to me at least.

Kuunavang seemed uninteresting and unimportant (except for celestial skills, YAY!), whereas Glint seemed to have much more bearing on the overall story. Oh and the Kurzick/Luxon thing, well it just seems un-needed. Why bother 'aligning' yourself and your guild to either side, end up fighting the other side in countless battles, only to align the two sides in the end against a 'greater foe'. Especially when your character knows that this is your intention from the start. Seems like wasted glory, honestly.

Ah well, I look forward to a storyline equal to or hopefully better than Prophecies, as it's done by the same team that worked on Prophecies. As others have said, just hire better voice actors, have their mouths move to the words, and please work harder on the script!!

ShadowStorm · Jul 22, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirNutWad

...I'm not sure if that's a negative thought of not, but wtf do you expect from a game with...warriors, archers, mesmers, monks etc, or a "HERO" O.o seriously. I can't really think of anything else other then kill a bad guy...cause thats what heros...ya know, normaly do. If you think thats "lame" or "boring" go play something else, but ya, factions was very short thats why I didn't like it as much as i thought I would.

There are other options. What if the villain is too powerful to be defeated? As a hero, you could still try to save the people by taking them somewhere that the evil couldn't reach them. (Ring any bells? The Charr are too numerous! We can't defeat them as is, we must go to Kryta for sanctuary!)

And yet there are more options as well! If the villain is too powerful to be defeated and you can't relocate the people, how do you save the day? Well, you remove all the reasons for the villain to be here in your lands threatening you. (If we had known the Lich was going to unleash the titans, all we would have had to do is destroy the Scepter of Orr. He would have been pissed, but we could have likely found a way to strand the Lich on the Fire Islands and sailed off into the sunset like Heros)

ShadowStorm · Jul 22, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

As others have said, just hire better voice actors, have their mouths move to the words, and please work harder on the script!!

I think they should hire Jack McDaniel AKA Luke Yeorios to edit the cutscenes and add moving mouths. He's done a wonderful job of it in both of his videos I've seen and, hell, they could even pay him extra to have him go back and edit the Prophesies and Factions cutscenes as well. I'd love that.

/signed

Lady Lozza · Jul 22, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

It seems to me that a great many people are very confused between the actual storyline and the execution of that storyline by the developers.

Prophecies was one plot device after another to get from point A to point B.
1) The charr invade Ascalon, so we fight the charr (pre-post was a nice start)
2) Rurik suddenly decides to leave to go to Kryta, giving up the fight when a lot of people are working their butts off trying to rebuild Ascalon.
3) Crossing of the Shiverspeaks introduce us the the evil side of the Dwarves and give us a reason to want to kick their butts at a later stage.
4) Arrive in Kryta have to fight the undead. Win = welcomed by the Mantle, they suddenly let you escourt a group of "chosen" to the beach. Yeah we saved the Temple but hey, they've known us what? A week? A month?
5) Chosen are kidnapped we go to retrieve them - plot twist (apparently) Mantle aren't as good as we thought.
6) Help the Shining Blade retrieve a staff and give it to the man lore says destroyed Orr. Hmm, this doesn't seem quite right...
7) Oh no! The Mantle managed to *suddenly* overrun the Shining Blade, let's flee! Orr Destroyer wants us to do X. Apparently we are all chosen, how convienent.
8) Desert is a bunch of lore missions (nice to learn about the Elonians)
9) Oh here we have a seer. Wow, we have a destiny, so hey we had best fulfill it.
10) Let's rescue the Blade, nice honourable thing to do.
11) Oh, wow, Mantle know some really nasty guys. Like real nasty. But hey, not to worry, we know there is someone who can help us.
12) New superduper armour, yay! Now to help the dwarves.
13) *Evil music* Oh that ugly creature is back, what could he possibly want.
14) Another change of landscape, wow these Mursaat must be really evil, they live on a fire island.
15) Doh! Mursaat aren't the only evil things around, we've ended up in Hell!!!
16) Ok, we'll kill the bad guy.

Factions was actually a story, reads like a story.
A hero (to the common people) committed a crime a long time ago and earned a very evil reputation. For what was basically a mistake, he was employed in the service of an envoy to pay for his mistake. The mistake made was that he chose to pay attention to the seer. He made a bad choice. There was no reason for the Emperor to kill Shiro, from what we have seen, anyway.
The hero believes this is all very unfair, in many ways he didn't do anything wrong and he plots to get his life back. He becomes so obsessed with that that he does indeed loose his humanity, willing to do anything to restore himself to what he now sees as his rightful position.
Desperate to prevent a reoccurance of the Jade Wind, the heros of modern times rush to find a solution to the problem. Bad guy's plan (to return to life) succeeds, but it also dooms him.

The storyline of Factions is much more convincing than a bunch of plot devices stitched together. The problem is that the execution of that storyline was, IMHO, horrible. Where as the execution of the *apparent* storyline for Prophecies, was fairly decent.

We have been treated to some real gems over the years, KOTOR, TES, and others. MMOs cannot have a storyline to rival those games, but that doesn't mean that they have to stitch together plot devices simply to propel you from one area of the map to the other.

I for one hope that Nightfall has a storyline, not a bunch of plot devices, and that it is WELL executed in the game.

EDIT: On Togo, THAT was predictable. Might have been better if we hadn't known he was the Emperor's brother, and if Nika hadn't given that spoiler in the T Temple cutscene.

SirNutWad · Jul 22, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowStorm

There are other options. What if the villain is too powerful to be defeated? As a hero, you could still try to save the people by taking them somewhere that the evil couldn't reach them. (Ring any bells? The Charr are too numerous! We can't defeat them as is, we must go to Kryta for sanctuary!)

And yet there are more options as well! If the villain is too powerful to be defeated and you can't relocate the people, how do you save the day? Well, you remove all the reasons for the villain to be here in your lands threatening you. (If we had known the Lich was going to unleash the titans, all we would have had to do is destroy the Scepter of Orr. He would have been pissed, but we could have likely found a way to strand the Lich on the Fire Islands and sailed off into the sunset like Heros)

Ah, your first point was good, lol, end the game leaving to some other place, i would want to buy the next chapter. your 2nd point...was just...O.o odd but ok...you still got more ideas then i do

but im sure if you expanded the idea, it would be ok. Not trying to make enemies by being that negative lol. I'm just tried of all this negativity in this forum, ya, factions was short and not much players enjoyed it as much as it expected themselves to. maybe Anet saw this mistake and tried to please the players with a new and better chapter, hey, but i don't know. if they didnt see the mistake and just want "increase" profits by making a new chapter, shame on them, if they improved, shame on you. but by all means, flame all you want after you played it and it was crap.

NinjaKai · Jul 22, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Normally opinionated discussions like these often lead to nothing but negative speculation.

arcanemacabre · Jul 22, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

It seems to me that a great many people are very confused between the actual storyline and the execution of that storyline by the developers.

I will agree with you on one thing, that Prophecies was a bunch of plot devices stitched together, designed to drag the player from point A, to B, and so on. I disagree that there wasn't an 'actual' storyline, though. The 'actual' storyline was simply the Lich wanting to rule Tyria with his army of Titans, and the players are the ones prophesized to stop/help him, depending on the destiny of the players.

The execution of this 'storyline' by the developers is ultimately a guess, as we cannot know how they went about putting it all together. It doesn't matter anyway, as it works perfectly fine. There are always plotholes in the best of stories, so that really means nothing. Overall, plot devices are named such because they work. They're meant to hook the viewer into the story and make them continue. I don't know about you, but the story of Prophecies always had me hooked. I wanted to learn more, I wanted to be a part of it.

Factions did have a believeable story, and understandable. Unfortunately it left me with no interest to move forward in it (I just recently beat Factions, as I went so slow, not really caring if I beat it), and I didn't really care what happened to any of the main characters. I did like the ending, however, as it gave me a sense of accomplishment once I beat Shiro. That was kinda nice.

If the game is going to have a story, I'd rather it be full of plot devices and story hooks, no matter how hokey, than be bland and emotionless. Getting the Luxons and the Kurzicks together seemed to be made a MUCH more big a deal than becomming "Weh no Su" or whatever, which to me, should've been the other way around, since in the end, it's all that mattered.

Ventius Hozza · Jul 22, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

All the storyline that I knew in Factions was that I had to:

kill some Afffliced guys
kill some trees and stuff
kill some squiddies
kill shiro and his army of really annoying metal things

errrr... after looking at this thread it seems as if I did have the right storyline all along.

This is what I think NF's storyline will be:

Something is wrong in Elona
Some new enemy(ies) are introduced
We need to kill them
We find that some random dude is behind it all
We have to kill him
Saved the day w00t.

lets see...

Caleb · Jul 22, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I have enjoyed the storylines in both chapters so far, and look forward to chapter 3!

Takonic · Jul 22, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

im not gonna lie, i hate both the stories, both were not very good...though proh's story was decent compared to factions...factions story and shortness felt compared to prophs, was horrible,wasnt worth my money, but i love guild wars thus ill play it still....i hope nightfall's story be decent if not, i surely hope it feels longer..........I will still shiver at Shiro's Corny voice acting, even old school dubb'ed godzilla movies had better voice acting then shiros cheezy monotone lame lines....

Lady Lozza · Jul 22, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Arcane, I agree with most of what you have said.

I take this view, plot devices aren't really needed in the face of a good, solid storyline. Now obviously this completely subjective. Let's take JKR and Harry Potter, her (seeming) plot devices more often than not, turn our to be an important part of the storyline - hence not really being a plot device. It is (as I have mentioned) a matter of opinions.

Prophecies worked because it kept moving you around and, despite there not really being much of a storyline, players were constantly on the move from one place to the next with the "storyline" generally in the front of their minds.

Factions on the otherhand, seemed to think the storyline would be enough to drive the story, and it wasn't. Furthermore the restriction of the "closed gates" simply added the sense of being pushed around the map against your will. In short there were simply no (or perhaps merely poor) plot devices used to aid what was otherwise a reasonable storyline. Of couse everyone sits around an whines that there was no storyline. All they had on their minds when doing the quests was: I was told to go here, I can't open more of the map if I don't, so I don't have a choice. Aided by some very poor cutscenes and scripting it is no wonder that a lot of people don't spend too much time pondering on whether or not the game actually had a story.

Poor Plot Device:
Well it was the champions of long ago who actually slew Shiro, so you should seek out their artifacts to help you fight him.
Come again? I mean really, ok I could go along with this, if they had given us just a touch more than, hey they wielded the blade that did the deed.

Poor Execution:
Uniting the Luxons and the Kurzicks.
The REASONING in the storyline for this one was simple, and reasonable. The afflicted were more numerous than expected and no doubt going to get worse, but the execution (HzH/Cavalon -> Unwaking Waters) was terrible. You ran around doing a bunch of unrelated tasks and then were asked to help out either side on a very important mission, and at the end of which they said, hey we'll be friends for the time being. Wouldn't it have made more sense to have 2-3 small missions where players were entrusted just a little more by either side before all coming together in the final battle with the afflicted? Either mission worked well enough as a mission, just that the leadup to those missions was non-existant.

Prophecies, however, kept players jumping from place to place. These guys are bad, now these guys are bad, but wait a moment the OTHER guys are bad. And it worked because players didn't have to think too much about what they were doing, most of it was happening far too quickly to do anything more than simply process the new information.

Raxxman · Jul 22, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I think for a game, Proph has super storytelling, and it has a lot going on in it.

First time round you're desperatly fighting the charr, trying to do what's best for Ascalon, you get used a lot (Mantle-Mursaat, Lich, Glint, the Seers, Shining blade) but not always in an evil way (Mantle offer help and sanctuary for your people from the Charr, which is nice, because they get access to more chosen so intentions aren't pure, but many lives are saved). While its an A to B plot line drive you can break every story down to simplistic modes. It comes down to how a story is told.

Factions on the otherhand is very straightforward n boring

xXa1 · Jul 22, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

the storylines had strong promise but they were fleshed out really really bad. it's as if someone had this great concept but in a fit of drunkness, let a bunch of grade schoolers do the storyboards ....

lyra_song · Jul 22, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Lady Lozza you hit it right on the money.

I really do think the Factions storyline is much richer. Its really was just the execution that sucked. Terrible voice acting made people wanna skip the cinemas.

Hence they missed all flashbacks that actually built the story.

Chaos II · Jul 22, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Nightfall is coming out pretty soon after factions, this might mean that they haven't thought about the storyline, i don't know how much time they thought about factions or prophecies but this seems pretty quick

Tanith · Jul 22, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Even more than the storyline, I hope to see a really good villain this time round (and who am I kidding, of course I'll buy NF). I mean...

***possible spoilers ahead***

The Lich teleports himself (and you) into the middle of a pool of lava, so you can't attack him. Later on we confront Shiro, wearing the loudest outfit I've ever seen on a bad guy. He "banishes" you...so you can't attack him. These guys are wusses!

Jeez, at least Diablo would stand there and fight! Let's have a bad guy who's really bad! I wanna see some digital intestinal fortitude out of my RPG villains.

Okay, silly rant ended. It's nap time.

Tanith

pixel.summoner · Jul 22, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaKai

Normally opinionated discussions like these often lead to nothing but negative speculation.

Too true

Khift · Jul 22, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kais Unduli

The storylines haven't been too bad so far. I think the dialogue is what needs the most work. Some of the things they say are just downright ludicrous.

"To the end of us all!"

*cough*

Honestly, what is needed is some more interaction. While it is true that you cannot make the players into characters with motivations and such, you can easily make NPC allies and villains into such characters. Factions has a decent plot on paper -- but no characters, just cardboard cutouts. Prophecies has a horrible plot on paper -- but it has some actual characters to it. The Vizier, for example, has a good chunk of screen time and you get to know him way more than Shiro, making him the better villain easily. Shiro was just some dude who wanted to blow up the world whereas the Vizier was someone we previously trusted and we'd been lucky enough to sit down and have tea with who just so happened to want to blow up the world.

Nightfall needs more plot twists, and new kinds of plot twists. The heroes should be beaten more than once before they finally succeed, you know?

Bah, poorly put together posts ftl...

BigTru · Jul 22, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

They could ::gasp:: not make a 2-dimensional main villain.

"ROAR! I AM THE LICH! I AM EVIL, I WILL RULE ALL OF TYRIA!"
"ROAR! I AM SHIRO! I AM EVIL, I WILL RULE ALL OF CANTHA!"

How about a villain with a personality? Mabey one with differant ideaolgy than the group; one who thinks he's really doing the right thing. One trying to achieve peace by wrong ways. Sure it's not original, but atleast it has a bit more variety than the same villain over and over again.

How about a villain who is simply seeking revenge on a single person/nation? Seems like Factions MIGHT have been shooting for that, but the villain lacked any dialogue/personality to even assume he had an ACTUAL MOTIVE beyong "I WILL RULE ALL OF CANTHA".

Omega X · Jul 22, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Lady Lozza you hit it right on the money.

I really do think the Factions storyline is much richer. Its really was just the execution that sucked. Terrible voice acting made people wanna skip the cinemas.

Hence they missed all flashbacks that actually built the story.

Terrible Cinematics IN GENERAL was the reason why people wanted to skip it.
The Voice talent isn't small(I've seen the credits), but if THAT is what you have to work with then its all gonna stink.