Curse

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 24, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You're definitely missing the point. You're assuming things about the OP that are nowhere to be inferred from what he posted. You're assuming he wants to 'grind'. Where did you read that in his post? I didn't see that. You make something up and then you shoot it down. Missing the point 101. I've no idea about the quality of WoW's content, I've never played it. I was referring to the amount. More stuff to explore, places to go, non-linear gameplay.

You keep saying that I missed the point yet you're doing nothing to explain to me what the point was. Its because you dont have a point.

If you have no idea what the content of WoW was, then how could you come here and defend the OP's view that GW should have more of WoW's content?

WoW IS a lot of grind. And yes I've played it. If the OP didnt offer specifics about the "superior" content of WoW then of course we would assume it's the grind factor that he wants. Because as I said, WoW is basically not that different from GW but with a lot more grind.

Quote:

Ask someone who played WoW. I'm not going to argue a point I never tried to make.

And yet you did argue about something you know nothing about. Why are you arguing with me then if you dont know what WoW is like?

Quote:

That's not what you posted in the first message you adressed to me.

Just because you missed my other post in this thread doesnt mean that I didnt say it. The forums dont revolve around you.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtTheBehemoth

Although Guild Wars is a better value it doesn't come near matching WoW in content.

Now, I ask again. What sort of content are we talking here? We need specifics otherwise people will just assume you want grind. And if you've never played WoW then dont go jumping down my back like some idiot did.

Gli · Jul 24, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

I'm not a pve detractor, I like it a lot. The point of guildwars is team coordination, not gimme missions that uncoordinated groups can steamroll or areas that players can solo grind

That's exactly what we got though. I started a new character, henched my way through Factions, got the 100% exploration, did all except a rare few missions this way too and got the Protector title. I also capped all elites and didn't die until I hit 858k exp. This took me a month or so. Then, there was nothing left to do, except the godawful leecher-ridden Fort Aspenwood and the never-starting Jade Quarry. So I got back to Tyria where I capped all other elites and maxed the Tyrian PvE titles. My Factions-born character spent a lot more time in Tyria. Factions PvE content is easy, repetitive and scarce. Replayability isn't created by scope, like in Prophecies, but by silly against-the-clock master rewards for missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

I honestly think most players have no idea how to play this game and that's why people hate the pve play so much.

Or maybe, people learned the ropes in Prophecies and breezed through what little there is of Factions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Pve in guildwars isn't designed for you to spend months of your life playing one type of character all the time (this isn't really a character evolution game) - you play to cap your skills then you go figure out what you can do with those skills and the skills your friends have. The real fun of the game is combining the strengths of different classes into an effective group, there are endless combinations. Once you're done playing with one type of character roll another, when you run out of slots delete the character you play the least and keep going.

That's exactly the problem, isn't it? ANet struck a kind of 'just enough content' balance with Prophecies. With more copious amounts of content, more variety and more challenges, I wouldn't have been complaining about Factions. But as it stands, the early PvE game is so boring I can't bring myself to put another character through (Kaining city slums put me to sleep) and after a rare few missions in Kurzick/Luxon land, the game is over. Where's Faction's Sorrow's Furnace equivalent? Where's the Underworld, where's the Fissure of Woe? Where's the Tomb of Primeval Kings? What we did get is 2 elite missions that the vast majority of people can't even earn their way into. The whole 'taxi' thing is preposterous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

If you get bored of the challenge afforded by the npcs you might want to try your skills against other players, they're doing the same thing you are so the challenge always changes. I can see not liking to be challenged in this way, or not liking the trash talking that goes along with playing other people, or not liking losing, so pvp isn't for everyone.

I do play PvP, but that has nothing to do with the lack of good PvE in Factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

That said there is a reason for not making guildwars more like WoW - in WoW you grind for ever better equipment so that you can more effectively splat people and npcs. If you're going to be competitive in WoW pvp you need to either spend a boatload of time grinding for gear or you need to spend IRL cash on ebay to aquire it the easy way. In any event there's a pretty hefty barrier to entry in terms of either time or money, and if you don't spend one or the other you're going to spend most of your playtime getting ganked and corpse camped.

Well... no one asked for WoW-amounts of content. Not I, not the OP. He conceded in his very first post that he thought Prophecies was good for him. Unfortunately, Factions is no Prophecies when it comes to content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

In guildwars the barrier to competitive play is considerably lower, as soon as you've got one solid skill bar and a few runes unlocked you can easily pvp your way into further unlocks, or you can play the pve game and unlock things the long way. GW is designed to be accessible to casual players who are turned off by the time or money commitment that WoW requires. You can login for an hour and play through two missions, or you can win a few matches in the team arena, you can go on a fissure/underworld run, you can do a couple of GvG battles or you can run with a tombs group for a bit. There are a lot of things available that you can complete in an hour or two.

Again, PvP is fun, but it doesn't excuse Factions for being short on content. Look at the mission count alone. 25 in Prophecies vs. 13 in Factions. Both have 1 that's hardly a mission: the doppleganger battle and the Shiro fight. That leaves us with 24 vs. 12, where the 24 have secondary objectives while the 12 have a mastery level that leads to repetitive play and frustration for the less talented players. There's no contest, Prophecies is hands down a more fulfilling game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Here's the problem with making GW more WoW like - say you make ever better equipment available, everyone grinds to aquire it so that they have an advantage. Then everyone else has to grind to obtain the same advantage, otherwise the grinders dominate. So you've just stopped 95% of the playerbase from ever having a competitive chance and you've effectively killed off any hope of having fair fights that are won based on player skill and not on time played.

Who's talking about better equipment and grinding? How about the exact same game with twice the surface to explore, more missions, more interesting missions, more variety? I would definitely play another character through Factions if I wouldn't have to spend days on end looking at the same drab slums to get anywhere, only to find that there isn't anywhere to get to except a rather quick conclusion to the storyline, which even requires going BACK to that dreadful city. After that, nothing. Nothing at all.

The only reason my single Factions character capped all elites for all classes is so that I wouldn't have to play another character through the game to unlock them. Sad, isn't it?

Ensign · Jul 24, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Guild Wars does have quality, well-supported PvE. In fact I would boldly state that the quality of GW PvE blows everything else available out of the water. What other games offer that Guild Wars does not, is massive amounts of low-quality content, and extensive end-game farming support. As you mentioned, Guild Wars does not support a farming endgame, it supports a PvP endgame. There are a few tailored endgame instances in Guild Wars, but that is not the goal of the game. They don't want people grinding out endgame instances incessantly.

Honestly, saying they're making bad business decisions because they don't create massive amounts of endgame PvE makes you look like a moron. Posting later on that they need to keep adding endgame PvE content - but not in future chapters, it "must be available to all players regardless of the chapter they own" - erased all doubt that you really don't understand business decisions at all and are just bitching that you don't get handouts.

Peace,
-CxE

Gli · Jul 25, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

You keep saying that I missed the point yet you're doing nothing to explain to me what the point was. Its because you dont have a point.

The point is that the amount of content in Factions isn't up to snuff. That was also the ONLY point the OP was making. Did you read his post at all? Every other thing you're trying to pin on us was made up by you yourself. No one mentioned a wish to grind. No one asserted that WoW has better quality content than GW. That's where you're missing the point. We're talking about the amount of content, you're talking about lots of stuff EXCEPT the amount of content. Missing the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

If you have no idea what the content of WoW was, then how could you come here and defend the OP's view that GW should have more of WoW's content?

I know it has a lot more content than GW. That's the only thing ever put forward by the OP and myself. You're desperately trying to argue against a point no one made. Missing the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

WoW IS a lot of grind. And yes I've played it. If the OP didnt offer specifics about the "superior" content of WoW then of course we would assume it's the grind factor that he wants. Because as I said, WoW is basically not that different from GW but with a lot more grind.

No, he wants more content and only mentioned WoW passingly as a game that has more content. He doesn't mention or even in any way imply that he wants to grind, that's something you yourself made up about him. If I were to wager a guess, I'd say he wants more content to AVOID grinding. Grinding only starts when you've nothing else to do except replay the same content again and again. As long as there's discoveries to be made, new stuff to do, you're not grinding. Asking for more content is a remedy against grind, not a request to add more grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And yet you did argue about something you know nothing about. Why are you arguing with me then if you dont know what WoW is like?

I couldn't care less about WoW and I haven't argued about any aspect of it that I don't know about. I know it's a game with more content, and whatever else you want to think I argued, that didn't happen. Words like 'quality' were dragged into this discussion by you yourself, and I never argued or even acknowledged the relative quality of WoW's content, nor did the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Just because you missed my other post in this thread doesnt mean that I didnt say it. The forums dont revolve around you.

When you quote me and respond, that's what I'll respond to. I didn't respond to your other post because I agreed with it and didn't feel like posting: "/signed" or "What he said." That other post had zero to do with what we're talking about here.

Gli · Jul 25, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars does have quality, well-supported PvE. In fact I would boldly state that the quality of GW PvE blows everything else available out of the water. What other games offer that Guild Wars does not, is massive amounts of low-quality content, and extensive end-game farming support. As you mentioned, Guild Wars does not support a farming endgame, it supports a PvP endgame. There are a few tailored endgame instances in Guild Wars, but that is not the goal of the game. They don't want people grinding out endgame instances incessantly.

Well, you know... they could've put SOME endgame content in Factions, apart from a measely two 'elite' missions you have to beg for to gain entrance. It's not just the OP, and despite his awkward way of making his point, he is right. There's no endgame PvE in Factions to speak of. Many people are dissatisfied with the utter lack of anything. If Factions had the same amount as Prophecies there wouldn't have been an issue, because two equally priced and equally footed games having comparable amounts of content, you can't really argue with that. Factions sold us short though compared to Prophecies, and linking up to the same Underworld and Fissure of Woe really doesn't do much for return customers.

pixel.summoner · Jul 25, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I am fine with what Factions has provided. It's quite alot on my plate to build up all my chars, so it keeps me busy. I haven't even been to the elite missions yet, still just building titles, building characters, gathering loot and helping my guildies. Granted there isn't a ton of 'aftermath' once you're through Shiro, but that doesn't mean I don't have my hands full...

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 25, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Im not going to even bother reading what you wrote Gli...So this post has nothing to do with you.

Complaining about a lack of content in GW while on the other hand complaining that it's bad business to make us pay for content is ridiculous.

If you want more Wow "content" (still no one has explained how WoW content is superious other than that it's longer) then go play WoW where you pay for it. You want more, you have to pay more.

twicky_kid · Jul 25, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Heavy PvP players are really forced to buy the next chapter. If you don't have the skill or can't run the build you won't get in the guild.

As in the Cost on a per month basis its different for everyone. If you don't buy the next chapter it cost you less than $5 per month for a year. If you did buy the next chapter its still cheaper than WoW. You may also quit anytime and come back for $0. Also people do not have to have a credit/debit card to play.

Asrial · Jul 25, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I stopped reading when the OP mentioned annoyance at A-Net not paying attention to his sound financianl advice.

pork soldier · Jul 25, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asrial

I stopped reading when the OP mentioned annoyance at A-Net not paying attention to his sound financianl advice.

That's why I lead off with a troll post :P garbage in, garbage out.

Gli · Jul 25, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Im not going to even bother reading what you wrote Gli...So this post has nothing to do with you.

Complaining about a lack of content in GW while on the other hand complaining that it's bad business to make us pay for content is ridiculous.

If you want more Wow "content" (still no one has explained how WoW content is superious other than that it's longer) then go play WoW where you pay for it. You want more, you have to pay more.

Oh, you're so funny. Not reading my post but hammering on about the off-topic non-issue you can't seem to let go of instead. Sure.

Want more, pay more? Errr... well yeah that sounds logical, but how do you explain the 'Pay the same, get less' deal when comparing Factions with Prophecies?

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 25, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Oh, you're so funny. Not reading my post but hammering on about the off-topic non-issue you can't seem to let go of instead. Sure.

Want more, pay more? Errr... well yeah that sounds logical, but how do you explain the 'Pay the same, get less' deal when comparing Factions with Prophecies?

*sigh* I didnt bother replying to you because you cant seem to grasp certain things and I had to stop or I'd end up calling you a moron.

So does that mean that I'm not allowed to talk about the topic just because YOU said so?

As for the "Pay the same, get less" comment on your part, you're wrong...yet again. We DONT pay the same playing GW compared to playing WoW. They have to PAY for their expansions as well as pay the monthly fee. Go do the math or dont spout such nonsense.

Gli · Jul 25, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

*sigh* I didnt bother replying to you because you cant seem to grasp certain things and I had to stop or I'd end up calling you a moron.

So does that mean that I'm not allowed to talk about the topic just because YOU said so?

As for the "Pay the same, get less" comment on your part, you're wrong...yet again. We DONT pay the same playing GW compared to playing WoW. They have to PAY for their expansions as well as pay the monthly fee. Go do the math or dont spout such nonsense.

Christ man, you're implying that I'm the moron here?

First, you can talk about whatever the hell you want, but you're challenging people to defend things they never claimed. Which isn't something someone who isn't a moron would do. (I can do passive aggresive like the best of them.)

Second, my "Pay the same, get less" comment was comparing Factions with Prophecies. What's your hangup about WoW that you can't even read what I wrote without thinking I was talking about WoW?

Spouting nonsense indeed.

WasAGuest · Jul 25, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

As for the "Pay the same, get less" comment on your part, you're wrong...yet again. We DONT pay the same playing GW compared to playing WoW. They have to PAY for their expansions as well as pay the monthly fee. Go do the math or dont spout such nonsense.

He didn't say anything about "pay the same, get less" towards GW and WoW; he said "pay the same, get less" in regards to Factions and Prophesies.

I agree with Factions having less content in the PvE side, especially on the end game areas. Ensign is right in that GW was originally designed to have PvP as the end game, but in reading M. O'Brien's interview as far back as Febuary right before Factions was being ready to ship, he admits to "Now" knowing that many players have no interest in PvP. We have since then heard that PvE will be given the same importance as PvP. We also know that Jeff Strain has said that GW started off as a role-playing game and the goal was to have players finish the role-playing game, then PvP.
Since both of these things have been added to and adjusted as the game evolves, I would imagine we will see more PvE and PvP as time goes on.
We also saw Anet rename the storage feature (called a core feature by Alex Weeks) to chapter content to maintain sales (Gaile's reason given) of a heavy PvP product. I see this as a knowledgable marketing choice (however annoying it is) towards knowing that PvE is where the market share is at, and as Ensign has also said, that the PvE in GW is pretty good... else we wouldn't be asking for more.

Hang tight all, let's see what Nightfall has to offer before we bury the game. They know as well as we do, Nightfall has a lot riding on it.

YunSooJin · Jul 25, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Regardless of all the stupid nitpicking going on this thread..

If the PvE content (ie size of world, explorability, etc) is anyhting like Ch2: Factions in Ch3: Nightfall, it will be the last iteration of Guild Wars I will buy.

Anet has pretty much lost my trust after Factions.

azunder · Jul 25, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Challenge missions could count as endgame PvE content. The fact that you're scored against other people make it pseudo-pvp and thus, a bit more competative.

However, this would only work if:
-Getting a high rank requires good coordination and planning
-The rewards are really good (if you do well!)
-Each time the mission was done, there was some variation to keep it fresh (and to keep teams on their toes)
-The mission's challenging

I haven't really played the challenge missions a lot, but from what I've seen they don't really fulfill any of these. However, with a bit of patching (ok, maybe a lot), I think challenge missions could be salvaged into more endgame PvE.

Malice Black · Jul 25, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

lol this should have been closed about 5 pages back

all you are doing is repeating each other *yawn*

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 25, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Yeah, people complaining about "pay the same, get less" do you really expect each chapter to have the same amount of content, the same type of content and have the same exact appeal?

Right now, all I hear is "blah blah blah I hate Factions because it's different than Propecies. Wah wah wah." Geezus get over it. It's hardly a "pay the same get less" fact. It's only your opinion. If you want to threaten to quit over it, then go ahead. No one cares.

I think I got my money's worth plenty just because I dont have to go through the tedious nonsense of Prophecies.

SchwarzKnight · Jul 25, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are so upset with this apparent lack of quantity of content from Factions as compared to Prophecies. I only see it as a perception issue, since the real difference in content is only the early-game (pre-lev 20) content that the populace made apparent they didn't want anyway. Also, ANet went out and addressed one large gripe the people had with Prophecies, that being that the missions were too long.

For my part, I reach level 20 at about Sanctum Cay, so that leaves 9 missions + the doppel for me as far as level 20 content goes. However, I may be an anomaly, as I do every quest and get every mission/bonus on the way, so I can see many people not reaching that point until the desert missions, or even ascension itself. Therefore, I would say that there are really 7 to 10 missions of real level 20 content (depending if you want to count Ascension trials).

Furthermore, once people had achieved their first play-through, the running business appeared and thrived. And what a success it was! It's not hard for me to see the dev's impressions and the resulting consequences. They saw that the players didn't care about pre-lev 20 content; the players saw that aspect of the game as more of a burden than a pleasure. Hence, in the next GW incarnation, it was minimized.

In Cantha, Shing Jea island took the place of Ascalon -> Jungle. Characters levelled up much quicker, and now people are generally at level 20 by the time they get to Vizunah Square, perhaps Nahpui Quarter. Discount the Shiro mission if you want, and that leaves 9 missions of level 20 content (Nahpui -> Raisu). Compound with this that the longest of Canthan missions would take slightly over a half-hour, as compared to the Tyrian end-game missions that broke 1 hour regularly, and you should be able to see how a perception of shortness might form. Add in with that, even, that the playerbase is now much more experienced, and will take significantly less time on their first play-through of Factions as compared to Prophecies, and the appearance of a gross shortcoming comes up.

So, while yes, I agree that if you want to look at pure game-hours for completion, Factions may have been shorter. However, outside of that Factions actually had more content for level 20 characters, especially if you add in Challenge missions (5 pure PvE, 2 pseudo-PvP), Alliance battles, and Elite missions.

So, if you're here to gripe about Factions PvE being shorter, know that your gripe is being aimed at the very things people didn't like about Prophecies, being pre-lev 20 content and the arduous mission length.

WasAGuest · Jul 25, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by azunder

Challenge missions could count as endgame PvE content. The fact that you're scored against other people make it pseudo-pvp and thus, a bit more competative.

However, this would only work if:
-Getting a high rank requires good coordination and planning
-The rewards are really good (if you do well!)
-Each time the mission was done, there was some variation to keep it fresh (and to keep teams on their toes)
-The mission's challenging

I haven't really played the challenge missions a lot, but from what I've seen they don't really fulfill any of these. However, with a bit of patching (ok, maybe a lot), I think challenge missions could be salvaged into more endgame PvE.

I had really high hopes for the challenge missions after I heard you could get cash from them. After I played them though I was very let down about them. If I take a character on a quick farm run I can make 1k to 3k on average in ten minutes. I do not like farming as it is so boring; so I was hoping these challenge missions would replace that. However, the reward is so low for the time it takes to set up a group plus play through them as far as you can... the rewards just do not justify the game play.
So yea, I agree if the rewards for these missions matched what I can make so easily else where then yes, I would consider them as a viable "something to do".