Curse

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 28, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astraea Zopyros

Maybe this should be merged with the "Monk Abuse" thread, and renamed, "We hate PuGS."

Every profession has advantages and disadvantages. Currently, yes, it will be very difficult for Assassins to get a group. This is not necessarily because we hate Assassins--due to the newness of the profession, there are a lot of Assassins out there.

One is ok for a group. Two can be handled. Three? That's pushing it. As a monk, just like I'd never take a group with more than two warriors, two elementalists, two necromancers, etc., I won't take a group with more than two Assassins. Too many of one class severely hinders the group. Currently there are a ton of Assassins, so groups fill up much quicker.

Also, many players are still discovering a playstyle that works for them. Just as when I was a new monk, I really sucked at it, new Assassins really suck. Anytime you are new at a profession and without guidance, you stand a high chance of really sucking. It just happens.

Thus said, I really feel this is a PuG and general player problem, not just an Assassin, Monk, Mesmer, Warrior, Necromancer, Ranger, Elementalist, Ritualist hate problem...

QFT oh and I think 4 sins, if played right could really rock out

FalconDance · Jun 28, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

A well-played 'sin is a true asset to any team. Unfortunately, it seems to take a little longer for a player to get a grip on the 'sin skills. Too many are besotted with the armor look and the 'coolness factor' rather than determined to learn the profession and its skills.

When I played my sin, I kept her ranged at nearly all times. She did respectable damage and stayed alive with very little healer intervention.

My son has a sin who is aiming for the Survivor title (and looks like he will succeed!) The combination of skills and knowing when to be melee and when to fade back out is vital.

J snukka · Jun 28, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

I've been playing Guildwars since the day Prophecies was released last year. I play guildwars because it lets me unwind after work each night. I mostly solo-farm all over the place (Factions and Prophecies), but I dont use any 55 builds. I create my characters with tanking and solo-farming in mind. "Tanking" is my play-style, but I also switch up my character builds to fill specific roles when I am in groups with other people.

I play my assassin as a tank because I choose to, not because I'm an un-educated noob. I can solo-farm many types of mobs, in many different areas.

I also perform very well in groups. Just a couple days ago I took my assassin through the Abaddons Mouth mission with a full group of people (PUG group, I didnt know anyone). During the mission, our 2 tanks both died a couple of times. I didnt die at all, and I was not an energy drain on the monks, in fact they rarely had to heal me at all. And I was playing like a tank...

This game is all about building your character and using skill combinations which enable you to meet certain objectives, objectives that you define and those that the game defines.

My assassin tank build that I use for solo-farming and group play is as follows:

Disrupting Stab (can be switched out for anything else)
Golden Phoenix Strike
Death Blossom
Golden Lotus Strike
Healing Breeze (I also use Vigorous Spirit occasionally)
Healing Hands [E]
Live Vicariously
Balthazars Spirit

Some of you may take issue with the fact that I use 2 maintained enchantments, or you may say that I have a perceived energy problem, or that I'm vulnerable to enchant stripping, or this, or that, blah blah blah...

I've heard it all many times, but I assure you, this build works for me. I dont have energy issues, I dont have healing issues, and I can tank just as well as any Warrior.

To sum up, the people who bitch about assassins are the ones who havent actually spent the time to make it work. I'm sick of the assassin-hate that the majority of players have.

I hope that isn't what you go in with when you have a group, bc this build of yours proves why assassin are ineffective. You wasting time defending yourself instead of attacking. come on you are dealing no dmg, just surviviing.

NinjaKai · Jun 28, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

A well-played 'sin is a true asset to any team. Unfortunately, it seems to take a little longer for a player to get a grip on the 'sin skills. Too many are besotted with the armor look and the 'coolness factor' rather than determined to learn the profession and its skills.

When I played my sin, I kept her ranged at nearly all times. She did respectable damage and stayed alive with very little healer intervention.

My son has a sin who is aiming for the Survivor title (and looks like he will succeed!) The combination of skills and knowing when to be melee and when to fade back out is vital.

GFT How hard I try to pound it into assassins heads that I meet that their best tactic is hit and run. I mean they have shadow stepping skills that move them away from opponents for a reason.

sinican · Jun 28, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

^^ I do believe that I disagree with you in every fashion, Sins can spike whatever the heck they want, In raisu palace I was spiking tanks and rangers, all level 28, in this area if you rely on crit hits then you are umm screwed, but if you rely on secure damage+conditions than you will be fine. Alot of people think that sins only being able to take out one target for every 15-20 secs is weak when it isn't, if a sin actually takes the time to think and pick his targets than he is fine, The order of target picking should go Monk>rit>mes>necro>ele>ranger and by that time the tanks would likely have gotten rid of the tanks, also the sin is THE boss killer. On Unwaking when we got to Kuuni our team was down to about three people with just me, a tank, and a monk, and the tank kept a good DPS going while I spiked and kept kuuni conditioned (deep wound and bleed) and it got us through with masters. Sins don't deserve to be hated, and splatter, looking over your build I think that is one of the few tanking builds that I think could work if played right. Oh also a Sin is nowhere near a watered down warrior, they shouldn't even be compared, and actually, a Sin, if played right, is a tanks best friend, by taking out the one thing that can demolish the tank, the casters. ALso the sin can condition down the tanks target and make the tanks job MUCH easier. If anyone thinks that sins are weak, go to the Sin boards and look at my open invitation.

its ok to disagree, i expect that because like you many people compare sin1 to sin2 instead of comparing sinX globally...

of corse there is a rigth and wrong way to play a sin the real issue i see though is that a sin "globally" is not a strong as other classes "globally"

im comparing the sin against the game just as i compair any other class against the game...

a warrior overall will outbeat a sin in pve heck so will every other class and that is mainly my point...

the sin does not have the versatility of other classes when it comes to even skill usage each of the sin's skill have to be used in correct order or they do not work at all and without executing those skills in their respective required order they are useless... the assassin spends way too much downtime poping in and out of combat where as a strait out warrior can go in there and preasure dmg whilst the assassin has had to break agro 3-4 times...

the assassin class is way to conditional is my point... not saying sins suck "preiod" im saying they suck comparably to every other class in the game...

what is the true strenght of the assassin and at what cost does that strength come... now compare that to the others...

some of the problem is of corse some players realyl cant play a sin but those same players aren't good a playing other classes either its just an overall flaw of that particular player not being able to grasp the mechanics of the "game" not just the assassin...

i played my assassin and i felt i played him well but i definately will not choose him over any other class... i found the assassin very limiting the basics of the class are just weak... shoot in do dmg (try to do a lot of dmg) shoot out before dieing... you can not mix up your attacks at all or all the attacks will fail...

other classes do have conditional needs but not an entire skillbar of conditional needs...

all attacks must start with a lead attack or a limited choice of skills that are and exception... then offhand attacks must follow and preceed dual attacks... dual attacks must follow offhand attacks...

there are no just strait out attacks that can be used reactively in any combination dependant on the actions of your foes...

and strait out you cannot RELY on criticals because later on they are almost non existant even with a spot used on your skill bar (critical eye) in attempt to overcome this...

its very much my opinion that the sin does not have enough pros to constitute all the cons...

the class just makes me feel forced to do this then that then this then that and i cant vary at all from that or im useless...

its almost like the sin is missing something... and ive had this lingering feeling that, that something is similar to how a warriors adrenaline works...

the critical hit attribute portrays a use to maintain the sins energy pool to perform their respective attack chains and as per design it was assumed that these little buggers would be super fast at attacking yet they are as sluggish as a sword with the weaker base dmg and simply have to rely on skill attacks to do enough dmg to matter...

unienaule · Jun 28, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

The problem, then, is that the enemies in PvE are level 28 instead of 20, since attacks and skill damage are (for the most part) balanced for PvP. I propose that a level cap of 20 be implemented for damage calculations.

Gorebrex · Jun 28, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

its ok to disagree, i expect that because like you many people compare sin1 to sin2 instead of comparing sinX globally...

of corse there is a rigth and wrong way to play a sin the real issue i see though is that a sin "globally" is not a strong as other classes "globally"

im comparing the sin against the game just as i compair any other class against the game...

a warrior overall will outbeat a sin in pve heck so will every other class and that is mainly my point...

the sin does not have the versatility of other classes when it comes to even skill usage each of the sin's skill have to be used in correct order or they do not work at all and without executing those skills in their respective required order they are useless... the assassin spends way too much downtime poping in and out of combat where as a strait out warrior can go in there and preasure dmg whilst the assassin has had to break agro 3-4 times...

the assassin class is way to conditional is my point... not saying sins suck "preiod" im saying they suck comparably to every other class in the game...

what is the true strenght of the assassin and at what cost does that strength come... now compare that to the others...

some of the problem is of corse some players realyl cant play a sin but those same players aren't good a playing other classes either its just an overall flaw of that particular player not being able to grasp the mechanics of the "game" not just the assassin...

i played my assassin and i felt i played him well but i definately will not choose him over any other class... i found the assassin very limiting the basics of the class are just weak... shoot in do dmg (try to do a lot of dmg) shoot out before dieing... you can not mix up your attacks at all or all the attacks will fail...

other classes do have conditional needs but not an entire skillbar of conditional needs...

all attacks must start with a lead attack or a limited choice of skills that are and exception... then offhand attacks must follow and preceed dual attacks... dual attacks must follow offhand attacks...

there are no just strait out attacks that can be used reactively in any combination dependant on the actions of your foes...

and strait out you cannot RELY on criticals because later on they are almost non existant even with a spot used on your skill bar (critical eye) in attempt to overcome this...

its very much my opinion that the sin does not have enough pros to constitute all the cons...

the class just makes me feel forced to do this then that then this then that and i cant vary at all from that or im useless...

its almost like the sin is missing something... and ive had this lingering feeling that, that something is similar to how a warriors adrenaline works...

the critical hit attribute portrays a use to maintain the sins energy pool to perform their respective attack chains and as per design it was assumed that these little buggers would be super fast at attacking yet they are as sluggish as a sword with the weaker base dmg and simply have to rely on skill attacks to do enough dmg to matter...

Dont have Factions yet, but from all Ive read in this post, I feel I can say this -
Id call that "Discipline". You know, like a Shaolin monk or something?
Basically, the discipline that comes from martial arts training.

Might you be thinking of.... UBER KILLING ABILITY? I dont think thats what theyre about, it seems more like theyre a "end battle" killer.

Theyre not warrior, theyre supposed to(my guess) rush in from a flank or the rear of the enemy, get in 2-3 hits, and retreat, possibly drawing aggro away from a warrior, giving them a chance to heal or get in an extra attack(which "should" reaquire aggro on warrior). The assassin then heals, and sets up for their next attack.
My 2 cents.

Silent Kitty · Jun 28, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

The problem, then, is that the enemies in PvE are level 28 instead of 20, since attacks and skill damage are (for the most part) balanced for PvP. I propose that a level cap of 20 be implemented for damage calculations.

That is the problem. As assassin you have to take out casters and such, but I haven't found any caster that I could take out in the 3-5 seconds the assassin lives. There are always multiple of them, who instantly target you with godly accuracy.

lord_shar · Jun 29, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Assassins seem to be OK for most pvp and L20'ish PvE. However, once the L20 assassin hits any of the L28 end-game locations (Raisu Palace, Urgoz Warrens, The Deep, Ring of Fire, etc...), then their mortality rate shoots up quite a bit, even when using AoD->teleport combinations.

I really wish assassins would have a balanced mix of both enchantments and defensive stances -- at the moment, almost all of their defensive skills are enchantment based.

Temple-Strike's 25-sec recharge time and very short ~7 sec duration makes it almost non-elite-worthy. If ranger-abuse triggered the 25-sec nerf, why not make its duration critical strikes based? After all, critical strikes is a much more fitting attribute for this precision elite attack given its description.

A little more base armor (75 base armor instead of 70), or 85AL/-10AL while attacking, or other more meaningful situational armor upgrades wouldn't hurt either, at least to slow down the insta-deaths I've seen in L28+ zones.

I believe I play my assassin fairly well... I've capped all of their elites, and condition-bombing (temple strike/blinding powder + twisting fangs + epidemic) seems to be the best PvE AE-crowd control I've seen so far. There's nothing like mass-dazing + deep wounding + bleeding + blinding entire crowds to take them down quickly (multiple mob healers = no problem!).

The milk shake · Jun 29, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

no one likes assasins because many r inexperienced and do it for teh anime stuff

EagleEye33 · Jun 29, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

There are many people who dont know what there doing, problem is in cantha is that everybody is picking the ass. (

) cause its new, so the probability is high for a crappy player. In tyria the professions were lil more spread out. I knew this problem would come when factions came out.
Didn't make one myself though, caught up in the ritualist thing

shardfenix · Jun 29, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

My 2 day old pvp assassin has more deaths than my 3 month old pve monk

Just kidding. I'm not an idiot. Most noobs think assassins are tanks. The truth is, assassins are for...assassinating things. In, kill, run away. If it doesnt die within 5 seconds, get the hell out!

Mavrik · Jun 29, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

I'll agree with the general opnion here and that is assassins do not get played properly. Infact I do not think the hench assassin knows how to be a proper assassin. I'm forever watching that deadly hench dart into the mix, do some damage and then "teleport" away into the middle of 4 or more enemies and be killed in a matter of seconds and then aggo that group onto me. Its VERY annoying watching that green dot jump around like that.

But my reason for not playing one is... well they are so skinny.

sinican · Jun 29, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The milk shake

no one likes assasins because many r inexperienced and do it for teh anime stuff

this is the usual assumtion and granted it does have some merit... however there are tons of experienced players haveing a really hard time justifying this when they themselves try out the assassin toward end game material and bam get hit with the "your a noob, learn to play"

the real reason is a combination of that "belief" and the FACT that the place an assassin takes up in a party would be more usefull as another Warrior instead (not finished on this keep reading)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleEye33

There are many people who dont know what there doing, problem is in cantha is that everybody is picking the ass. () cause its new, so the probability is high for a crappy player. In tyria the professions were lil more spread out. I knew this problem would come when factions came out.
Didn't make one myself though, caught up in the ritualist thing

right there are "many" that don't know how to play the assassin well or any other class for that mater because they are "new" to the entire game... and again there are even many more that are NOT new to the game that strugle with this class due to many reasons but IMO mostly due to that the assassin actually does have to be a tank in a lot of aspects due to the fact the only way they really can do dmg is by being inside the front lines... it really isnt easy to not get agroed while playing an assassin and with how weak their armor is and it not haveing mods for even elemental/physical dmg they get their ass womped by the sheer dmg in seconds by higher level mobs... seriousely they have ranger armor rating but have to fight in the front lines they are going to die quick...

you made a good choice by going Ritualist, after my assassin failed me i made one and so far imo the rit is the most versatile class (exactly oposite of the assassin, which is odd because i have always favored melee characters and rangers)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

My 2 day old pvp assassin has more deaths than my 3 month old pve monk

Just kidding. I'm not an idiot. Most noobs think assassins are tanks. The truth is, assassins are for...assassinating things. In, kill, run away. If it doesnt die within 5 seconds, get the hell out!

id believe you even if you werent joking... my assassin died around 30 times on the island in cantha, i didnt die my first time with my ritualist until the undercity and actually recieved the 2 ranks in survival before my first death occured with my rit

and seriousely folks just throwing out the whole noob coment so loosely is not a fair assesment of players playing this class... MOST players know the assassin is NOT a tank and really just have a hard time not being one whilst they have to be up there with the tanks to get their dmg in... agro seems to be very must against the assassin and i actually wouldnt be surprised if the AI didnt have a higher priority against assassin than they do warriors... even when playing my ritualist and taking a war hecnh and an assassin hench the mob odly always directs to the assassin before they do the warrior even when the warrior is just as close and even when the mob has to run by the warrior and chase down the assassin

my biggest frustration with the class is that no mater how good the player is thats playing the assassin that the assassin is still outmatched by any half way decent tank.... and that really is the point that the assassin really doesn't have an area where they are superior to any class... a warrior still can outdamaged them same time as living longer than them, and archer and an ele can spike better than them, and a mesmer can lay on more degens.. all other classes can do the same jobs the assassin can either better or the same with a better life expectancy...

OH WAIT... i take that back NO CLASS can even come close to the ability of an assassin when it comes to drawing agro... even if you are holding an item the assassin is much better at taking agro

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 29, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

and shard that is where testing your build comes in, if your build cant kill the enemy within 7-10 secs, scrap it. I think that the sin was more designed for the elite players, you either were godly with a sin and outdid every other class or you fall horribly short, tis the way it goes. and sinican I understand you POV on the situation I may not agree with it, but I understand, I do hope that one day I can help you see the light in my POV. But you are very well spoken and have not truely insultedme at all in your belief about what is now just about my fav class, well played, you have earned my respect.

Also as mention to everyone, classes should NOT be compared especially when it comes to comparing them with the core classes. Mainly because the core classes are the core "spine" of ANY RPG
Monk= White Mage Warrior=Paladin/tank etc. Mesmer= red mage Ele= black mage Ranger=archer/bowman/hunter etc. necro=anti-priest/death mage
These classes consist of the spine of any build you can compare anything to one of these classes in one way or the other.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 29, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

sinican don't be so closed minded, and these sins aren't quite doing it right methinks, I have died my fair share as my sin due to ABing and learning myself, but I have it down to an art now, I find the secluded monk AFTER the tank(s) have taken aggro I jump to him kill him and jump back, wait for like five seconds, find the next secluded target and take him out, it really isn't too hard. Sins are meant to be "in the lines" at all they are meant for search and destroy, find the loner and kill him, they donm't even need to get near the mob of clumped casters. Like I have also said before if they are in the DA line they can make the tank's job much much easier by crippling and degening his targets.

Dark Suoon · Jun 29, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

yea the problem is the assassins we see arent very good A.K.A. Beginners or newbies (assassins are the popular ones now) and they always die cuz they just started the game. Now the build i got doesnt make me feel like some assassins who feel unwanted

sinican · Jun 29, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

sinican don't be so closed minded, and these sins aren't quite doing it right methinks, I have died my fair share as my sin due to ABing and learning myself, but I have it down to an art now, I find the secluded monk AFTER the tank(s) have taken aggro I jump to him kill him and jump back, wait for like five seconds, find the next secluded target and take him out, it really isn't too hard. Sins are meant to be "in the lines" at all they are meant for search and destroy, find the loner and kill him, they donm't even need to get near the mob of clumped casters. Like I have also said before if they are in the DA line they can make the tank's job much much easier by crippling and degening his targets.

actually my PoV on the assassin issue is strictly in terms of PvE...

I do enjoy my sin for PvP as did i enjoy him all the way up to lvl 20 Mobs in PvE...

i think there usefullness really comes out for PvP and its just my opinion that they do fall short in pve...even though the whol critical hit thing seems like a small pro for the assassin it actually dramatically alters the class's functionality...

so when it comes to PvP if my Assassin had a 40% chance to crit it is an actual 40% chance because max player level is 20.. and every crit does "max" base weapon dmg + bonuses and returned energy needed for more attack skill usage...

when the mob lvls hit 21+ the assassins true effectiveness really lowers... they arent landing those crits and doing max base weapon dmg +bonuses and they arent getting a return on energy so they cant use as many attack skills as often...

to me this small little mater could quite possibly make all the differnt for the assassin in pve... that say if the devs didnt count oponent lvl vs crit chance past lvl 20... the dmg reduction would still be subject to armor and such just not the chance for criticals AND dbl strikes...

I actually had great effect with a passive attack build assassin that just used enchaments and stances without attack skills in pvp and pre lvl 20 pve... i actually loved the build a lot but again when those lvl 21+ mobs came along my sin just got stomped...

and i have to go on... the passive attack assassin actually rocked... id use sharpen blades and apply poison stack on critical eye and crit defence with a 20% enchant weapon and man those dbl strikes would fly mixed with crits my energy felt endless and crit defence never seemed to wear off... matter of fact this is my current pvp build for RA... i let the dbl strikes and criticals do all the work applying the degens constantly and providing me defence... of corse i get broke by enchant removers buts still nothing gets ya more exited then your attacks going of so fast it sounds like a machine gun watching them degens stack together at 7 pips and seeing the health being chewed away and that war cant hit me... sorry in the moment

there is not much else i can add to the subject really, i expect everyone to have their own opinion about any given subject and this is just mine... just now eveyone know my opinion and that really is the whole point of discussion :P

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 29, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

wow this topic has really delved into both of our views on sins. I agree about the crit lowering with the higher level and I think that the sins, being assassins and that assassins always know the weakspot of their enemies should have the crit hit ratio based on their strength on the criticals attribute ignore level, so simply put at 13 crit(for example) the sin should have that same crit ratio no matter what level monster he/she is facing. Also about your passive attack build sharpen daggers FTW also have you considered bringing locusts fury with that? the increase in double strikes is quite worthwhile for such a build methinks.

Vincaro · Jun 29, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

Assassins do really suck, they just a mimic of the Warrior, but worse. Warriors are not really welcomed to groups, but assassins, they arent welcomed at all to groups. Assassin heal self sucks, 4 seconds you get +9 hp regen, and 67 health after it sucks, I would rather get straight to the point with +127 health. There armor sucks. They look horrible and wimpy, looks like necromancer could own em. Also there dmg sucks! 2 hands for 7 - 17 dmg? LOL. HAMMER 19 (more than assassin max dmg) - 35 (X2 than assassin max dmg). And for speed? It sucks! Warriors sword is ABOUT the same, and deals 15 - 22 dmg, which is WAY better than assassin dmg. And there shadow walks? Who would spawn in front of enemy monk, then the enemy warriors OWN YOU, before your healer can get to you in time for a heal. Assassins, really suck.4 seconds for 50% running that costs 5 mana is a joke.

Ritualist is a joke too, but not even close to assassin. They just like necromancer but worse. Spirts are like wells, and minions, except can be casted anywhere. And there attack spells are WAY worse than necromancer. They have a spirt where you can be a 55 ritualist, but nobody is going to do it because there spirts suck!

EDIT by Swehurn: No flames, please.

The warriors sword doesn't double strike. And warriors don't have combos that can be reused so often and do as much damage as an Assassin's.

As for the Rit... I'd like to see any other class solo a group of 12 oni as easily. But besides that, you only look at damage. Rit really was made to be a second Healing Class, not a damage dealer. You don't see many Smiting Monks either.

By the way. Male warriors especially look like big stupid brutes. Hence the reason all my warriors are female. I personally think the male assassin at least looks like a warrior should.