Curse

Shinobi no Mono · Aug 12, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

hmm im not so sure of that because it is in LA when you move to Kaineng, i think from there the stories go at the same time but on other hand.. that would be strange becaues how could 1 hero be at 2 places at the same time...

Baelrog · Aug 12, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

First of all, I've always wondered why ANET choose to call the games "chapters". Usually, the word "chapter" indicates a connection of some type. Once I heard that Factions was the second chapter of Guild Wars, I immediately assumed that there was an overarching storyline that would connect all of the games together.

Second, when ANET began to release the games, they said they would release both stand-alone and expansions to Guild Wars. I can't remember where I read the article that said this, but I've always wondered why they keep on releasing stand-alone games (other than economic reasons and the like). I assumed that an expansion would be released sooner-or-later for Prophesies. I mean, look at all the space on the map! I’d really like to see some of the areas on the map that I haven’t gotten to see yet.

Third, I agree that it seems that something is going on in the game world that just doesn’t make sense. I do not, however, see it as a poor storyline. In Prophesies, your character is duped into helping the Vizier…who is the human form of the Lich…the advisor to the king of the fallen human empire of Orr. This leads you to open the Door of Komalie, which only the chosen one can open, and releasing the Titans, which the Lich wanted to control. Pre-Searing is there to help you learn the game, and Post-Searing and the Northern Shiverpeaks are the intro of the storyline. In Factions, the team gets rid of the intro parts (aka Post-Searing Ascalon and Northern Shiverpeaks) and goes right into the actions (which is why imo many people say the game is too fast paced). In Factions, you character learns of the bodyguard Shiro, his rise to glory, and his subsequent fall from grace. The Canthan Emperor is a powerful, almost demi-god-like figure. His death, especially in the Harvest Temple and by the hands of one he trusted, would have lead to the cataclysm of the Jade Wind had Shiro not tried to absorb it. Then, when Shiro is killed, the energy has nowhere to go, and amplified by the Harvest Temple, the Jade Wind petrifies everything.

These two appear to have nothing in common, yet they share a similar archetypal character (The Seer/Fortuneteller) and similar protagonists (Mhenlo, Devona, Cynn, etc.). In fact, these two things are very important to both games’ plot. In Prophesies, The Seer says he/she/it is a member of a race who fought, and lost to, the Mursaat eons ago, and thus has the power to protect your character from their powers (aka Infusion). This brings up some questions: First, where did they fight? Another continent, another realm, another world? We know that the gods each have a realm of their own, so another realm isn’t that far a possibility. Second, how did The Seer’s race loose if they had the power of infusion? I mean, The Seer is Level 30 and he has the power of Infusion! Any who, in Factions we have The Fortune-Teller, who may or may not manipulate Shiro. If she doesn’t manipulate him, and thus Shiro was going to be killed, why does it seem that The Emperor wasn’t going to do anything to Shiro? And even if the Emperor was planning to kill Shiro, why do it in the Harvest Temple? Why not kill him somewhere else? Was there something important about killing someone like Shiro in the temple? However, if she was manipulating him, and Shiro wasn’t going to be killed, why? Was she just bad at what she did…or was she someone else or being controlled by someone else?

The timeline is also interesting. There are two things to remember: One, the events of Prophesies is AFTER the events that lead to Shiro’s death and the Jade Wind. It is entirely possible that the same force is behind the scenes manipulating events to their liking (especially after hearing the plot for Nightfall). Two, Prophesies occurs BEFORE the events of Factions, and this is because of one main reason – Mhenlo.

During the plot of Prophesies, Mhenlo and “the gang” travel with your character as NPC’s (like the primary quest where you go to inspect the Ascalon Settlement) and as henchmen. Then, if your character is Tyrian, you travel with Mhenlo to the continent of Cantha. It is here that you learn Mhenlo was trained by Master Togo and that Mhenlo is quite the lady’s man (lol). In fact, this is the first time Mhenlo has returned to Cantha since he left to go to Tyria, specifically Ascalon.

I think that ANET wants you to have a certain degree of imagination when it concerns the Tyrian-Canthan time connection, and probably any of the Chapters’ chronologies. Yes, technically you can have a character move from Cantha to Tyria (my Ritualist has) which seems to mean that the timelines must coincide in some way, but I think that you just have to get over that aspect. The first chapter’s events occur before the second chapter’s events. Maybe the events on the island in Factions occur during the events in Tyria since Mhenlo never shows up, but since Mhenlo can’t be in two places at once in the storyline, the main missions in Factions (on the main Canthan continent itself) must occur after the Ring of Fire missions in Tyria.

Overall, it seems that ANET want to create an overarching plotline that is hidden and composed of various chapters. It might be that everything “bad” or “evil” that is occurring in the game is caused by an unseen force in the Guild Wars universe. We might have seen some of the players of that force (the Envoys, the Seer, Glint, the Fortune-Teller, etc.) and some effects of that force (corruption of Tombs, attack of the creatures during the Dragon Festival) but I don’t think we have any conclusive evidence of that force existing (lol…maybe its Gwen!!! :P). They might even release an expansion rather than a stand-alone game that ties all the continents together! Who knows! But personally, I think that while the storyline gets a lot of gripe from players, it still seems to make us want more.

TheMosesPHD · Aug 12, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delarn

Wow so ppl actually don't read my clarification of my thought ... thanks alot ...

I just want you to know that Faction take place AFTER killing the Titans ... And Nightfall will be AFTER the interlude of Faction ...

I did read your posts and I'm still not seeing how you're getting that timeline.

When I get to Kaineng Center, I can either go across the boat to LA then to D'Allesio Seaboard, or go on to the first mainland mission to Vizunah Square. The games don't occur in succession, they occur simultaneously. You've presented speculation that all of these events have been manipulated by one single entity, but show no real supporting evidence.

I'm not understanding where in the world you got the idea that the Fortune Teller an the Seer were in anyway connected, nor am I understanding why you think the Seer is behind anything at all in the game. You say the Seer looks like a fallen god? What? Show me another fallen god ingame to compare it to.

The Seer may have had bad intentions. The Seer may have known that helping us would release the Titans. Perhaps the Seer wanted this to happen. But who is to say that the Seer didn't have us release the Titans because she was confident we would be able to supress them? I mean in the end the Mantle's misguided reign was ended, as was the countless killings of Chosen people. After that, the story of the Seer ends, and I see no other signs that it goes further.

The Lich was the mastermind behind the Lich's doings, and I still cannot say whether or not Glint is good or evil. Perhaps she is neither. She led us to danger, but whose saying her intentions were for us to die, rather than death for those we would face?

You're whole theory is based upon some strange idea that any evil doings just had to all be caused by one single villain. The evil dwarves are just a pack of bullies going around opposing the dwarven king. That's all they are there doing. They're not plotting to take over the world, just to take over the Shiverpeaks.

The Charr have connections with the Titans, so mayhaps the Vizier inspired the Charr to start a war promising that the gods they worshiped would soon be freed, or perhaps the charr were just after some power.

Shiro was punked after he shanked his master, and wanted revenge. That's as far as he goes. The fortune teller may have been tied to evil, telling Shiro falsely that he would be killed if he did not kill himself, or perhaps he really was being plotted against. The Emperor, who usually entered the Temple completely alone that day, entered on that day with many attendants, as well as Shiro. This was quite out of the ordinary and points towards something out of the ordinary being up that day. I don't see any other connections of the fortune teller to anything else.

So basically...I really have no idea where this theory of yours is coming from.

EDIT: @ Baelrog. In your above post you mentioned something about Shiro absorbing some of the Jade Wind caused by the Emperor's death. But it wasn't the Emperor's death that caused the Jade Wind. It was Shiro who caused it. When he was slain he let out a deathcry and it was this deathcry that caused the Sea to turn Jade and the forest to turn stone.

Baelrog · Aug 12, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD
EDIT: @ Baelrog. In your above post you mentioned something about Shiro absorbing some of the Jade Wind caused by the Emperor's death. But it wasn't the Emperor's death that caused the Jade Wind. It was Shiro who caused it. When he was slain he let out a deathcry and it was this deathcry that caused the Sea to turn Jade and the forest to turn stone.

Your absolutely right...I meant to say that Shiro absorbed the power of the Emperor which gave him the necessary power to create the Jade Wind. Thanks for noticing that.

However, I still disagree on the topic of whether or not Chap. 1 and Chap. 2 are concurrent or consecutive.

I still base my information on the fact that Mhenlo is in both chapters. If both occurred at the same time, Mhenlo would be in two different places at the same time. I understand the problematic plots of massive, online, pseudo-linear, dynamic games, but since this character occurs in both Tyria and Cantha one chapter must come before the other chronologically – otherwise this whole thread is moot. If ANET ignores one aspect of plot, say for example timing, then they can, and will, ignore others. Thus, everything about the odd plot details becomes inconsequential.

This argument works with other NPC’s in the Guild Wars universe, such as Cynn, Adrian, Eve, and Devona. However, since Mhenlo is such a key character in the Factions campaign and storyline, it seems even more unlikely that the two chapters would coincide with each other.

In fact, if both chapters occurred simultaneously, why would Mhenlo keep bouncing back and forth between Tyria and Cantha? Wouldn’t that get a little tiring? Wouldn’t it make better sense that he killed off all the titans and then helped Togo with the afflicted? It seems odd, no matter the fact that a Canthan character can defeat Shiro and then travel to Tyria to defeat the Lich that the second chapter would occur at the same time as the first. This travel feature is merely there to facilitate the need to move a character from Cantha-land to Tyria-land, not to suggest that both chapters occur at the same time.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Aug 12, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

ummm didn't read anything 'cept OP so all I have to say is the on going plot isnt with the mursaat. I sincerely believe it has to do with the grasps and the Fury considering they have consistently appeared in both landsand created their little rifts, and it seems they are building in strength in Cantha with mutliple rifts and new monsters.

edit @ Baelrog for mhenlo being in multiple places the events in cantha came after the events in tyria, if you read the manual for one it says that mhenlo only TRAINED in cantha and was one of the people sent OVER there when people migrated. ALso somewhere in the story Togo talks about how he is sorry tohave to call Mhenlo BACK over to cantha even with all the recent turmoil in Tyria.

Markaedw · Aug 12, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Factions takes place durring the time when the game is in the Maguuma Jungle. We ge to Kryta, get settled in, join the Mantle, see what the mantle is really up to, betray them and realize we need to ascend to fight the unseen gods of the Manlte (Mursaat). All this time Mehnlo and the gang are not involved. They dont appear again until a quest in the desert.

So while some Ascalons are dealing with the Mantle, some followed Menhlo to Catha.

Interesting part will be where Nightfall falls into place. Personally I think it is from the searing untill you actually join the game, which is 2 years. When you see the FMV attack, then reappear, you see a statement that 2 years have passed, what were we doing in that 2 years?

Hella Good · Aug 13, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Guys, don't dig for stuff that isn't there. It's just poorly thought of. That's really all there is. I mean, I betcha Nightfall will be as simple in content as go in, find the means to kill the evil ruler/diety, and kill him/her. Seriously... don't expect a good story from ANet, they don't KNOW how to tell a good story. Expect lotsa "content" and hours of fun. But don't get hooked up on the story, it won't be anything to rly talk about.

TheMosesPHD · Aug 13, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Guys, don't dig for stuff that isn't there. It's just poorly thought of. That's really all there is. I mean, I betcha Nightfall will be as simple in content as go in, find the means to kill the evil ruler/diety, and kill him/her. Seriously... don't expect a good story from ANet, they don't KNOW how to tell a good story. Expect lotsa "content" and hours of fun. But don't get hooked up on the story, it won't be anything to rly talk about.

Ya, you're pretty much right about that. We should've all known this from the start as soon as the game forced us to let Rurik drag us into the cold Shiverpeak mountains.

But relating to the Mhenlo stuff. I was gonna mention the thing about them all dissappearing for a long time until the Iron Mines mission too, but beyond that I really don't know.

But what I'm wondering is: if Mhenlo was the main core NPC that ran alongside the plot during factions (even though the others came along too), will there be another of the main NPCs running around leading the storyline in Nightfall, and if so which char would you think it would be? I'm not sure because I can't think of any of the main NPCs that seem to have any ties to a North African setting, although they're all Ascalonians to begin with so you never can tell. Hopefully, though, if there is a main core NPC char in Nightfall, it won't be Cynn :P Mayhaps it'll be the elusive necromancer Eve, since they don't really use her ever anyway, and she just pops up out of nowhere at the end of Prophecies. Eve needs a story

Delarn · Aug 13, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Ok that mean most of you never DMed a "Play life" DnD game ... That you keep to have a story even if the players are thinking there is no story at all but only advanturing in the Fogotten realm and going to make a settlement where there is no city.

That is the most subtile story I've seen that make me think of those day where I was DMing that kind of game. My player loved to see the plot I made for them un veiling has they played and they were always looking for more stuff I can make for them ...

Pay attention to this, some good game have subtile story lines that lead to a major plot you don't know. Tales of Symphonia is a good exemple too.

Goonter · Aug 13, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I think the story probably looks a lot better on paper than it translates in game and as always so much is lost in translation.
The stories, for what its worth, isnt any better or worst than something Id get from a final fantasy game.
I guess what im saying is... the writers didnt kill this movie, the directors did.

Somethings I think were not given deeper thought than "adding a new feature in the game and wrap a few lines of dialog around it. case close." like tombs.
Heros Acent needed to move to the battle isle, so the old tombs needed a new purpose.
That doesnt mean that those cases cant reopen, only that there was never an original intention for them to be more than what they are now.

I would like to see other core npc's revail a deeper history in themselves in nightfall.
Eve would be an easy pick because she has little history to contradict herself in subsquent chapters,... and it does look like she is being tacked on as a third wheel with the core group.
Id like to see Devona and Aiden play better rules. Devona should have been the Mhenlo of prophosies. Aiden is just cool because he's older than everyone else and in my mind that would make him the most traveled and having the most connections within the group.

TheMosesPHD · Aug 13, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

I think the story probably looks a lot better on paper than it translates in game and as always so much is lost in translation.
The stories, for what its worth, isnt any better or worst than something Id get from a final fantasy game.
I guess what im saying is... the writers didnt kill this movie, the directors did.

This is a great point. The way the plot is being revealed, such as by voice actors, could possibly be what's causing people to feel lacking in the storyline. Rurik's voice was super cheesy, as was his Canthan counterpart Shiro, Togo sounds like he's one foot tall, and when I heard the voice of Danika I couldn't help but imagine a clueless gum-chewing teenster in a pink poodle skirt. And lets's not forget the voice of Elder Rhea, played by good ol' Smokey Agnus, the bearded cafeterian.

Also many of the cinematics have such awkward moments in them; breaks in the flow of the scene. I sometimes wonder if these awkward stops or angles are the result of the cinematic programmer trying to do everything with one hand while his other was graspin a chicken wing or something.

I still don't understand the ending cinematic of Raisu Palace. First I'm staring at some totally random wall made up of Jade Squares. Next Shiros all casting a spell, then Togo runs up behind the Emperor and takes his good sweet time turning around to face Shiro. Shiro slices at Togo but Togo just stands then for 5 seconds as if nothing happened. Then Mhenlo runs up and just stands there, closely followed by us, the Dream Team, looking all cool in our extrordinarily perfect line. Now we zoom out and can see Togo has finally realized that when you get sliced with a knife, you're supposed to get knocked down, and then as awkwardly as it had begun, the cinematic fades away and everyone who watched is overcome with a sensation of confusion.

I could say another example of presentation being the cause could be shown by the many animes people are downloading these days, myself included. Many times if you try and watch an anime in English, it just doesn't work at all because the voices don't fit the characters at all. A perfect example would be Naruto. I started watching Naruto a while back in Japanese, and love the entire series, both anime and manga (not including the anime fillers of course

) Then all of the sudden there's this english version being shown on TV. I decide to see what that's all about and had to change the channel literally 30 seconds after it started. Kakashi to begin with is voiced by the same nobjob that did Kaiba in the cheesy series Yugioh, and Naruto is voiced by the kid that everyone always just wanted to punch in the face when they were in middle school.

I had a lil more to say but I won't. The post is long as it is. So there's me showin my support for the quoted post

Pwnage Elite · Aug 13, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Way too much overanalyzation people. You are reading WAY too far into this game. How was factions advertised? A STAND ALONE GAME. STAND ALONE
As in, NOT CONNECTED. Three different games here people, three different games. If they were a trilogy then you would have to get Prophecies first. Do we have to get Prophecies first? There's your answer.

TheMosesPHD · Aug 13, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwnage Elite

Way too much overanalyzation people. You are reading WAY too far into this game. How was factions advertised? A STAND ALONE GAME. STAND ALONE
As in, NOT CONNECTED. Three different games here people, three different games. If they were a trilogy then you would have to get Prophecies first. Do we have to get Prophecies first? There's your answer.

Just because you don't have to buy all of the chapters doesn't mean the chapters won't have anything in common with them. There are ties to Canthan in the Prophecies campaign, as are there ties to Elonia in the desert of Prophecies.

Now excuse me, something about typing that out gave me a craving for pwning around in the Crystal Desert. cya'll later

Darakus · Aug 14, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baelrog

Your absolutely right...I meant to say that Shiro absorbed the power of the Emperor which gave him the necessary power to create the Jade Wind. Thanks for noticing that.

However, I still disagree on the topic of whether or not Chap. 1 and Chap. 2 are concurrent or consecutive.

I still base my information on the fact that Mhenlo is in both chapters. If both occurred at the same time, Mhenlo would be in two different places at the same time. I understand the problematic plots of massive, online, pseudo-linear, dynamic games, but since this character occurs in both Tyria and Cantha one chapter must come before the other chronologically – otherwise this whole thread is moot. If ANET ignores one aspect of plot, say for example timing, then they can, and will, ignore others. Thus, everything about the odd plot details becomes inconsequential.

This argument works with other NPC’s in the Guild Wars universe, such as Cynn, Adrian, Eve, and Devona. However, since Mhenlo is such a key character in the Factions campaign and storyline, it seems even more unlikely that the two chapters would coincide with each other.

In fact, if both chapters occurred simultaneously, why would Mhenlo keep bouncing back and forth between Tyria and Cantha? Wouldn’t that get a little tiring? Wouldn’t it make better sense that he killed off all the titans and then helped Togo with the afflicted? It seems odd, no matter the fact that a Canthan character can defeat Shiro and then travel to Tyria to defeat the Lich that the second chapter would occur at the same time as the first. This travel feature is merely there to facilitate the need to move a character from Cantha-land to Tyria-land, not to suggest that both chapters occur at the same time.

I have yet another view to bring in which is that Factions is occuring in the timeline of Prophecies, specificaly between the time you arrive in Lion's Arch and the time you leave from it.

Why do I say this well :

As a player from prophecies you arrive in Lion's Arch and get a message from Guardsman Sergio that tells you Mhenlo wants to see you, you then go to help In Cantha, when you get back you are again in Lion's Arch and proceed from there with the story.

As a player from Cantha the quest that asks you to help the Tyrians is one you get from Kaineng Center that leads you to Lion's Arch to help the mantle deal with their undead problems.

So Lion's arch is the connecting point between both arrival and departure which would place Factions as being a side story in prophecies occuring between Mhenlo's arrival in LA after which he moves to Cantha to help and when he gets back he moves further with the Prophecies storyline.

Of course as players can complete one storyline without doing the other it is up to them on how they do it really and Factions timeline is hard to set as fixed unless ANet finaly gives us a progress bar

Terra Xin · Aug 14, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

COme on guys, gather a whole bunch of rangers, tame some worms, and create tunnels through the hills that form a blockade across the southern area of the crystal desert, there's your entrance into Elona^^

Oh, time doesn't seem to exist in Prophecies, can't remember the strange basis as to why... I think the idea sprouted when people disagreed with possible ideas of Rebuilding Ascalon or something. But time in Cantha exists, we just had Dragon Festival, that seemed to be time... related...

mqstout · Aug 14, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delarn

Ok It make us go back to the dragon fest we had, It has been endangered by the arrival of what ... of the same evil that has corrupted Hall of Hero and Tomb. I wonder why they took the same same evil it must be because we will fight those more and more. In nightfall.

I sure hope note. Those things are annoying difficult, in annoying ways. They are indeed definitely meant for 'post-end-game' play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bethany

When I finished Prophecies I didn't realized I actually had finished. I thought that somehow I had to go back to Ascalon and finally help Adelbern repel the Charr (because in all honesty, I never wanted to follow Rurik. I wanted to stand by Adelbern. But nooooooo!). Talk about confusion. At least when you defeat Shiro in Factions, you immediatly know that you've finished.

Agreed. There should have been the 'repel the Charr' series of missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

The explination is you (Your character) was destined to defeat the evil lich king... Everything was just to build you up for it. Check out the site for lore, which makes everything a lot more clear.

Hopefully their new webmaster will get all of the game lore together in one nice little package, including all the lore from the instruction manuals.

ALSO! All of the plot recaps above forgot to mention that the Titans are worshipped by the Charr that invaded Ascalon, thus completing the plot circle.