Aug 09, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05
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#21
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Guild: [VII] The Midgar Zolem
Profession: E/Mo
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I'd say your scoring isn't really too far off here, even if some are a bit biased.
All professions and attributes have some sort of unwritten rating of usefulness whether we like it or not. Alot of which is do with the ongoing metagame.
I'm all for less ineffective skills and attibutes to be made equally viable, giving us a wider range in choice.
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Aug 09, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06
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#22
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2006
Guild: SouL
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deacon Roswell
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant.
Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.
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In absolute agrreement here... As a core prophecies player, (with a W, Mo, N, and R), I was a little skeptical of getting factions when I heard how "narrow" the new classes were. And the first thing I did with those new slots from factions was to start an assassin. And yes, they ARE frustrating at first because everyone with a tank out there wants to treat them just like a tank, and you can't... But I took time to learn how to allott my skills into critical, dagger, and shadow.
You have to AoD in, get your damage and conditions done, and AoD out. Simple as that! And the reason they aren't made to be tanks is because they deal massive dmg and conditions in a short amount of time. GW=BALANCE, therefor----> assasins<tanks<warriors, and warriors<condition/dmg spiking<assassin.
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Aug 09, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32
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#23
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Rest En Pieces [RIP]
Profession: Me/W
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Frank while I don't disagree with you. I don't think you explored smiting very well. If you've only tried pure smite then your doing it wrong. Smiting works best when coupled with a secondary class. Like elementalist earth spells for example.
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What? Why? How do you combine smite and earth spells for an effective gvg build?
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Aug 09, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18
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#24
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Krytan Explorer
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
For example, Warriors generally have one function in GvG - damage dealers. That normally comes in the form of a Shock Axe warrior or a Hammer KD warrior, and there isn't a wide deviation from those types normally seen in GvG.
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Jetdoc, I agree with you to a point. Because the Deep Wound is so effective (overpowered?) a warrior is pretty much locked into building around Eviscerate/Crushing/Gash. But after that, there's all sorts of diversity/tricks you can add to a warrior build. That's why I think warriors are so well done.
On the other hand, when as the last time you saw a Rit that wasn't RitLord/Boon/Union/Shelter/Displacement/Soothing/xxxx/Res. Or an assassin that wasn't AoD/Golden/Horns/FS/TF/SRefuge/xxx/Res?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
[Sidenote]Why in the world did you give swordsmanship a "5"? In my experience, it's pretty rare to find a sword warrior in GvG that is as effective as an axe/hammer warrior. Time to rethink that.[/sidenote]
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Actually, sword wariors are quite common in GvG. Swords is the most effective damage dealing line WITHOUT using your elite slot, so you can do all sorts of neat tricks. Heck I've even seen Expel Hexes and Empathic Removal sword warriors.
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
In light of this, you gave Ritualists a "1", even though your gave both Spawning and Communing a 3/4, respectively, which obviously factors in the value of a Ritual Lord to most GvG groups.
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I'm not saying Ritualists aren't effective. Quite the contrary, any top guild will tell you that RitLords are OVERPOWERED in GvG. I gave them a one because they have 75 skills (or so) and exactly one effective build.
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
On behalf of elementalists I'd like to add Fire is utter crap except for fireball and rodgort's invocation. Met shower is only useful in pVE...and even then,only for KD since most people dont bring hammer warriors.
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Actually, Flame Burst and Starburst are fine skills for HA. Even Meteor Shower or Bed of Coals can be useful Ward/Altar clearers. However for GvG you are right.
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Originally Posted by EternalTempest
In the radio interview with jeff spain, he mentioned rit/sin are specialized and do one thing well.. vs core classes which are multi-functional.
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I never heard that, but to me that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. I mean, Rits are obviously meant to spam spirits (hence their primary attribute). But if so, why do they have 2 ENTIRE ATTRIBUTE LINES that are COMPLETELY devoid of useful skills? (ok, Recuperation can be handy .... but a 12 point investment for one skill???)
If this was the case, they should've just given Rits Communing and Spawning Power and saved alot of time and effort designing/testing 2 entire lines of skills.
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Originally Posted by Cirian
The restoration magic is more than healing, it's more like a combined heal/protect line. I will agree some of the conditions for the bonus effects are a bit funky, but some of the heals are solid, let down by the longish recast times compared to the likes of Orison.
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Your sort of made my point for me ... a Restoration Rit is so inferior to a regular Monk that you'd be a fool to bring one. I think the Restoration line is a fine IDEA (combining heals + weapon spells), but it needs to be effective enough to justify a spot on the team...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deacon Roswell
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant. Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.
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I will admit I AM ignorant about high-end PvE, as I have only done FoW twice, UW once, and never even been to the new elite missions. However, I did take two PvE characters through all of Tyria and Cantha, and for the regular miisions/quests, SS + MM + Tank + Monk seemed BY FAR the most effective template to me. I'm not sure why I would want an assassin (or a mesmer for that matter).... But then again, I AM a PvE noob, I admit it, and I meant this to be a PvP discussion, so lets not turn this into a PvE flamefest 
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Frank while I don't disagree with you. I don't think you explored smiting very well. If you've only tried pure smite then your doing it wrong. Smiting works best when coupled with a secondary class. Like elementalist earth spells for example.
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Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?
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Originally Posted by Alleji
Also, I stopped reading when you didn't give soul reaping a 5.
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Actually, I thought I was being generous with a 4. Here is the problem with Soul Reaping: if you are winning big, then you get a nice boost, but who cares. And if you are losing big, you get a nice boost, but it probably won't matter. However, it's when you need it the most, in those tight battles where you can't seem to get a kill, that Soul Reaping lets you down. And if you designed your build with that energy income in mind, then that right there might be the breaking point.
Which is not to say Soul Reaping is bad, it's just not reliable, so you can't design your build around it...
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Mesmers are the highest ranking class? And Ritualists are the lowest?
Notice how often each one is used in PvP. Right.
This "analysis" reeks of bias.
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If by biased, you mean that I prefer classes that have tons of cool skills, challenge your originality in build design, are extremely effective if played well, but ineffective if not, etc etc etc, then YES, I AM biased. Especially when compared to classes that have one effective build, take zero skill to play, are mind-numbingly boring, and make GvG matches into 45 minute grindfests (not mentioning any names tho .... cough.RIT.cough)
I think that one is a no-brainer... 
Thanks all for all the feedback!
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Aug 17, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55
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#25
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Northwest Ascalon
Guild: Freedom
Profession: N/R
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Jetdoc, I agree with you to a point. Because the Deep Wound is so effective (overpowered?) a warrior is pretty much locked into building around Eviscerate/Crushing/Gash. But after that, there's all sorts of diversity/tricks you can add to a warrior build. That's why I think warriors are so well done.
On the other hand, when as the last time you saw a Rit that wasn't RitLord/Boon/Union/Shelter/Displacement/Soothing/xxxx/Res. Or an assassin that wasn't AoD/Golden/Horns/FS/TF/SRefuge/xxx/Res?
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Well, for starters, my Rit and my Assassin. I run 2 PvP effective Sin builds, and looking at your list, the only skills I carry are xxx and Res.  And yes, there are DA skills of some great use - but only for those that put builds together themselves, not those who read forums and attempt to follow instructions.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I'm not saying Ritualists aren't effective. Quite the contrary, any top guild will tell you that RitLords are OVERPOWERED in GvG. I gave them a one because they have 75 skills (or so) and exactly one effective build.
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Now see, here's where people begin to think you are biased. There are many people viewing this who don't play that 1 build, and you are saying they are ineffective. Perhaps a bit of background would help us out. Did you personally spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing through multiple combinations of skills? Have you come up with and then rejected (through PvP action) many builds, and eventually ended up with this one? Without that kind of information, a casual reader might assume that you were either ignorant or biased.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Actually, Flame Burst and Starburst are fine skills for HA. Even Meteor Shower or Bed of Coals can be useful Ward/Altar clearers. However for GvG you are right.
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Thank you for acknowledging that there is more to PvP than GvG. I do wish that when people meant GvG they said GvG. I play a lot of PvP, but rarely GvG because of the size and activity level of my Guild. Your calculations make a lot more sense when limited to this one aspect of play.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I never heard that, but to me that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. I mean, Rits are obviously meant to spam spirits (hence their primary attribute). But if so, why do they have 2 ENTIRE ATTRIBUTE LINES that are COMPLETELY devoid of useful skills? (ok, Recuperation can be handy .... but a 12 point investment for one skill???)
If this was the case, they should've just given Rits Communing and Spawning Power and saved alot of time and effort designing/testing 2 entire lines of skills.
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Not that this answer is definitive, but how about because you can play a Rit secondary? For the record, you can play a Restoration Rit effectively. A Rit with Shelter (yes, I know it's not Restoration although I've never figured out why) and Spirit Light is anti-spike. Spike builds can occasionally recover faster that SL, but that's only 2 skills. Mend Body and Soul is a non-Elite Restore Condition and a mid-grade backup heal. If you have Recuperation and Shelter up, that's a pretty good chance of removing that 'overpowered' Deep Wound even with a cover. Flesh of My Flesh is the fastest reusable Res in the game.
Am I saying that you shouldn't bring Monks anymore? No, but a Rit can have a place without RL, and with a Restoration Rit, you can do without 1, or /Ri could make a good Secondary.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Your sort of made my point for me ... a Restoration Rit is so inferior to a regular Monk that you'd be a fool to bring one. I think the Restoration line is a fine IDEA (combining heals + weapon spells), but it needs to be effective enough to justify a spot on the team...
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To add to what I say above, I would certainly not complain if they made the Restoration spells recharge faster or cast quicker... But I'd say if you bring a Rit and try to play it like a Monk, then your point is entirely valid. But a Rit isn't a monk, and I don't think it's inferior -- just different.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I will admit I AM ignorant about high-end PvE, as I have only done FoW twice, UW once, and never even been to the new elite missions. However, I did take two PvE characters through all of Tyria and Cantha, and for the regular miisions/quests, SS + MM + Tank + Monk seemed BY FAR the most effective template to me. I'm not sure why I would want an assassin (or a mesmer for that matter).... But then again, I AM a PvE noob, I admit it, and I meant this to be a PvP discussion, so lets not turn this into a PvE flamefest |
I hope my comments aren't taken as Flames or Flamebait. MMs take bodies to get to full effectiveness. My Assassin leaves bodies in his wake like nobody's business. See the synergy? Once the MM gets started, you have your disposable tank. SS is still awesome, and yup, you need a Monk or two, but a properly built and skillfully played Assassin rocks in PvE. The template you mention above will certainly work, but I play this game because it's fun.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?
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Um... I'm at a loss here... It sounds like fun...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Actually, I thought I was being generous with a 4. Here is the problem with Soul Reaping: if you are winning big, then you get a nice boost, but who cares. And if you are losing big, you get a nice boost, but it probably won't matter. However, it's when you need it the most, in those tight battles where you can't seem to get a kill, that Soul Reaping lets you down. And if you designed your build with that energy income in mind, then that right there might be the breaking point.
Which is not to say Soul Reaping is bad, it's just not reliable, so you can't design your build around it...
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Meh. Pets and Spirits and Minions and NPCs fill this gap pretty well. It always bothered me that there were no (and then no useful) skills attached to this attribute I was spending so many points on, but it was always still worth every point spent. The fact that I can half fill my energy bar while I'm healing myself with one Taste of Death is worth the whole expendature.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
If by biased, you mean that I prefer classes that have tons of cool skills, challenge your originality in build design, are extremely effective if played well, but ineffective if not, etc etc etc, then YES, I AM biased. Especially when compared to classes that have one effective build, take zero skill to play, are mind-numbingly boring, and make GvG matches into 45 minute grindfests (not mentioning any names tho .... cough.RIT.cough)
I think that one is a no-brainer... |
I think that bias appellation is coming from statements like "challenge your originality in build design" conflicting with statements like "but that's not your job" (Rangers doing damage). You have painted a nice little limiting box and said you want to have more options within those self-imposed limits.
I don't think anyone would say you are being unfair to RL Rits. But you are most certainly being unfair to all other Rits. I think you've done the same to Sins. Your comments about Smite Monks (without PP) sounds similar. I'd love to see that Attribute Point distribution:
DF : 0
HP : 0
PP : 0
SP : 16
Leftover points: 151
I can imagine that [i]would[/] be ineffective, yes.
The fact that you don't see that is exactly what is meant by bias. Your post shows a decent intelligence. There are 75 skills. Play with them a bit -- I think you can do better.
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Thanks all for all the feedback!
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Anytime!
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Aug 17, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37
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#26
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: International Districts
Guild: The Labyrinth of Night [LoN]
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?
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I'm not sure where NinjaKai got that either, but I have run an E/Mo Shield of Judgement + Aftershock build. Wasn't too shabby either.
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Aug 17, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00
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#27
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Altrumm Ruins :o
Guild: Swarm of the Zerg [ZERG]
Profession: Rt/Me
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
[Sidenote]Why in the world did you give swordsmanship a "5"? In my experience, it's pretty rare to find a sword warrior in GvG that is as effective as an axe/hammer warrior. Time to rethink that.[/sidenote]
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Sword warriors often use Bulls Charge because swords don't need an elite to be effective.
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