Curse

gamecube187 · Aug 16, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I would guess quite a lot. After you've gotten the skills and armor you want, why not go for completing every quest with your awesome character?

Plus, some missions are the only places to get elites.

But we digress, the issue is not "Why would people do missions."

The issue is: "Why keep people out of certain areas"?

We're all level 20 in Cantha. Does getting Flesh Golem before I do the Square mission really matter? Why do I have to do a Kurzick mission before I can get to the Luxons?

I always enjoyed exploring in Prophecy. When I made it to Yak's Bend without doing the missions, it was such a cool feeling. It felt actually better to do it that way (at low level, with henchies, mind you), than by doing the Missions.

So, when I got to the Skyway gate in Cantha and couldn't enter, it was like a slap in the face. There is no reason for it to be closed off, except as an artificial way to extend the playing time. And that's the worst part about it, it was a pointless limit placed just to frustrate players.

So you have seen a lot of people with droks armor go back to do all the missions after kryta and before the desert? I see very few people doing this. Partially because there is no elites to cap there, but mostly because they don't have to go there to do later quests.

And I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the gates are. I think they should only be at mission towns and the towns the missions lead to to prevent people from doing the last mission without having to do missions #3, #4,#5,#6,#9, and #10 or something like that like they do in prophecies. I really hate trying to do prophecies missions that everyone skips by getting run just because those misisons are so hard to get a group for.

I, like you, don't like the fact that gates prevent you from going to the luxon area, for example, without doing certain missions first. I liked how you could go from ascalon, to droks without doing the missions or primary quest. (but not how you could get the droks armor, or do the missions nearby droks) I like being able to just explore like if I feel like doing so, and I think you should be we to. It's just the fact that people skip missions and don't come back to do them later that I don't like.

In short, I just think gates shouldn't be anywhere, exept at the entrance to mission towns, and the exit of the towns the missions bring you to(and the quest to get to the next town should be in the town the mission brings you to).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Honestly I'd like the missions to be NON-LINEAR. I think this would take HUGE leaps and bounds in the right direction. If we start at a central point in the world, and are allowed to choose and pick our path through the missions which wary in scope and difficulty it will nearly eliminate both sides of this arguement. I like this idea, as Elites would be more accesible than they are now, and we'd have more opportunity to use the best elites in more of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

This is an excellent point in which I agree. Anet did it once, albeit on a small scale, with the Crystal Desert missions in Tyria. Didn't matter in which order, you just had to finish them all before you got to fight your doppelganger.
Doing it on a larger scale shouldn't be very difficult and after you complete all of the missions, the last mission on the map will be accessible.

Nice ideas. I like it better than the gates are only at certain missions already. If this one done, we could get rid of gates altogether.

What I mean is, there is once again, a noob island or something. Once you beat it you end up in the main city, which is in the middle-ish of the map. You get a lot of primary quests, and each one will lead you to a different mission, and they are all about equally hard, but you don't have to do them in certain order. However, to get to the end of the game, you have to beat all the missions that those quests bring you to. Once you do you return to the main city and get another primary quest. This one has you talk to a npc that leads you to the end of the game area or something.

Stockholm · Aug 16, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

There are no skill quests - after your first mission - in 'Locked-Gates Cantha'. Someone might have gone all the way to HzH with the skills they received in Shin Jea Monestary.

And why is that? What are you reasons against free exploration?

There is progressivly more skills availeble the further you get in Kainang City and beond.

I am not against free exploration as you would have seen if you had read the whole thread, I'm against ppl skipping out on the missions, and the locked gates prevented that.
Untill A-net implements a better system(that lets you explore but will not let you do the missions out of order or skip certain missions) I agree with the gate system. It's not a good system, henc "evil nesessity" as earlyer stated.

LiamR · Aug 17, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Great News. If You Have Seen The Guild Wars Nigthfall Preview You Will See The Wide Open Spaces... Hopefully No Locked Doors In Sight!

I Really Cannot Wait For This One.

Sol Deathgard · Aug 17, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhaaltazar

Well if Nightfalls r anything like Factions i know few ppl , me included, who wont be buying it or an other Faction clone. I was really dissapointed with Factions with so many useles and stupid quests ( what use do I have with XP quests after i already have XX unused skill points ).

I dont want to be forced to do anything i dont want to.. If there will be other sneaky "forced" type of gameplay I ll say goodbye.

bye, enjoy wow

Eviance · Aug 17, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Explore explore ex...wall... locked gate.... wtf?

There were places that couldn't exactly be ran to in Tyria but it didn't have locks either. Granted that didn't stop people from getting run all the way across the globe to get to the mission to get to the place, eh?

I love exploring and I go out and just run around to all areas of the jungle that aren't really quest related to seeing, but they are there!
In Cantha, me and the crew explored and were having a blast and we go OH NEW ZONE! smack! >_< Locked gate, that really put a damper in it for us.
The locked gates had little to do with the map being so bloody short, it just added to much frustration.

My biggest BIGGEST quam with Factions, was the lack of story line.... I paid $50 for what would have been $25 of Tyria... To boot the story line they did have was so redundant that it made up about $2 of the Tyrian storyline... *sighs* I will NOT be buying Nightfall till I get the general players review on it comes in, nor will my husband, most of my guildies, my brother.... Just about everyone I know o_O;;;

*sighs* We wait.

Rera · Aug 17, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Players skipping missions has never made them incompleteable for other people. You can do every mission+bonus in Prophecies with henchmen, and I still maintain that a henchman group is *more* likely to be successful than a PUG.

The introduction of titles alleviates this problem somewhat anyway. I take my fully skilled and armored lvl20 Canthan characters all the way back to Ascalon just to get the Protector title, and given the large number of Protector titles I've seen, a fair number of people have played through all of the missions.

As for the argument that you end up with a ton of lvl20 newbies in late-game areas that know nothing about the game and have no skill, I've already addressed both cases. In (late) reply to Stockholm's response: be realistic. The lvl5s with drok's armor and elite skills then get *powerlevelled* because they know they're not going to find groups for anything late-game at lvl5, for exactly the reason you stated (no attribute points). I see lvl1 characters in droks and grotto all the time, but not one of them is ever looking for a group.

Frankly, I think a lot of runner hate arises from feelings of moral superiority and/or jealousy, because I've yet to hear a solid, convincing argument against running. I wager at least some of the haters see a lvl1 with drok armors and think, "what a loser, he paid to get here" or "I played through the game, so he should have to also". The reality is that it's not your business how that guy got his armor, and it's not your place to tell other people how they should play the game.

gene terrodon · Aug 17, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviance

My biggest BIGGEST quam with Factions, was the lack of story line.... I paid $50 for what would have been $25 of Tyria... To boot the story line they did have was so redundant that it made up about $2 of the Tyrian storyline... *sighs* I will NOT be buying Nightfall till I get the general players review on it comes in, nor will my husband, most of my guildies, my brother.... Just about everyone I know o_O;;;

*sighs* We wait.

Off topic...I feel your pain, but IMO Factions was geared more towards PvP and not PvE and that’s why all of the shortcomings for PvE oriented players.

AB and Competitive missions were great, but PvE coulda, shoulda been better.
Nightfall is being touted as PvE oriented, so hopefully the same shortfalls in Factions will not surface in Nightfall.

Xenrath · Aug 17, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Frankly, I think a lot of runner hate arises from feelings of moral superiority and/or jealousy, because I've yet to hear a solid, convincing argument against running. I wager at least some of the haters see a lvl1 with drok armors and think, "what a loser, he paid to get here" or "I played through the game, so he should have to also". The reality is that it's not your business how that guy got his armor, and it's not your place to tell other people how they should play the game.

Reading through the various pro-gate comments I'm tending to agree. I can't see any really solid reason in support of it. Ruins game etc. has all been addressed several times (it does not make any real difference). So I'm going to conclude several just want to force their viewpoint on everyone else.

The fact is freely explorable areas (no gates) will have NO impact on others. Prophecies had maybe two places you had to do, but the rest was free to explore and/or run or ignore even. Where are the many threads about runners ruining that game? I don't see them. How exactly did it have a negative effect on those pro-gate? It didn't, that's how. Gates did not magically increase the quality of PUGs, in fact made it worse because less people can be bothered to do everything all over again for the nth time.

Two options: force everyone to do the same damn thing just like you (if you're pro-gate) or have a free world where people can choose to do missions if they want, or not. The first option looks more and more dictatorial with no real (proven) benefits overall, and seems to be from some of the posts in here supported just to see others unhappy almost. The second you get the choices, you can find other players who want to do the mission (instead of people who feel like they're being forced to do it, HUGE difference) or you can play the game however you like without others making you do it their way.

What would you rather be? 1 person in a group of 8 who wants to do the mission, while the other 7 all feel like they're being forced to do it again... or 1 person in a group where everyone in the group chooses to do the mission. I know which I'd much prefer.

Francis Demeules · Aug 17, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

Off topic...I feel your pain, but IMO Factions was geared more towards PvP and not PvE and that’s why all of the shortcomings for PvE oriented players.

AB and Competitive missions were great, but PvE coulda, shoulda been better.
Nightfall is being touted as PvE oriented, so hopefully the same shortfalls in Factions will not surface in Nightfall.

And PvPers will blame Nightfall for less PvP style.....

gene terrodon · Aug 17, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

And PvPers will blame Nightfall for less PvP style.....

Can't please everyone all the time...

Clone · Aug 17, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I just don't want to see any more bloody restrictions on areas. I don't care what team just won Halls, I just want to go to the Underworld. I don't care who has farmed the most faction. I just want to come and go from the elite missions without standing around for a half hour spamming to get a ride. I'm not locked out any Counter-Strike maps if some dude in Seoul is having a good run. But, Guild Wars seems to love only unlocking your content when someone you've never met reaches some goal you really don't care about.

Francis Demeules · Aug 17, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

Can't please everyone all the time...

What I think now will be Chapter 4, everyone will stop buying because they will know it will be the team of Factions. So, another thing I think, its look like Anet have plitted the team for 1 with PvE oriented and 1 for PvP oriented. That way, they will upgraded at their own rythme. Like now, Players in Faction blame but the majority are PvE'ers. When Nightfall will comes out, PvP'ers will blame (another circle here). Anyway, I'm ready to see 1001 threads and topic on Guru for a "Yet, another thread to blame a new game with bugs" and "We love this game topics"...... or Dervish and Paragons builds.

Anyway, as always, I say "wait and see". If you like it, good for you, otherwise, too bad. I enjoy Guild Wars, no matter the Chapters I have.

For Nightfall map, its easely to make a big world with almost without design on it. But the prob is the design of the area and monsters.

Perhaps.... we will see the origine of Kephket

Gorebrex · Aug 17, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

... In the end it only means I will be very carefull with sequels and if they come up with a similar straight-jacket concept, I'll not buy.

Id like to see alot of people do that actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

You should be able to go just about anywhere in the map, if towns are the only place to get quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In factions you can't, you have to follow a prescribed path, there is no going to just about anywhere.

Yes, I know, but you should be able to go anywhere, on the map, just not be able to do much of anything, and not be able to get into towns you havent unlocked the gates to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

On the Droks runs, I think it wasnt meant to be accessible from Beacons for anyone, but was to give lvl 20s somewhere else to go from Droks, and to give them something besides final quests to do to get xp for skill points, just for fun, or practicing tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The droks-run was by design, someone quoted from an interview with a ANet employee about it, in this thread.

Reread thread from page 1, never saw that quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

dont know, maybe people LIKE getting through the game as fast as possible, so they can get bored with it that much faster, I just dont understand why people are in such a hurry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In Factions people are in a hurry more then they were in Prohecies.

That seems ass backwards to me, maybe its because Im not the "runner type". Theres less to do, but people are in MORE of a hurry? Dont see how that makes or could make, any sense at all.
IDK, maybe there should be an Uberizer button, when making a new character, you press Uberize, and it opens up everything, gives you all items to pick and chose from, all skills/elites(for all professions), 100k plat, free storage, and your storage contains 20 full stacks of ectos, easy to move, because youll already have your belt pouch, and 2 10 slot bags when your appear in Pre-Sear. I think that might satisfy some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

I see none of the "I hate runners and think gates are great" people are lining up to volunteer to redo missions for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th time? I'll put that offer back up if gates are all over Nightfall. Because it's so much fun and enjoyable doing every mission over and over again, none of you will mind doing that for me will you.

Oh btw
Official interviews ftw. Running was designed into it.

Prophecies story had no need for locked gates (you can always go back and do everything in sequence at any time)
Running was a design element. Lornar's was most likely made for running...

That would be me, my necro just went to help a friend with Hells(I already had mission and bonus, needing only Glint and THK), he got DCd, I stayed with party, did mission/bonus with rest of group, during usual "gj"s and such, I mentioned that I had trouble telling if we had done mission/bonus because I already had them. Got asked, "So you did this for nothing?" I said, "Yeah, was here to help a friend, but he DCd, figured I may as well stay and help you guys"

Lazy, or giving in to frustration with being unable to find a good group?
Only 3-8 times? Lightweight! I had to do Elona about 18 times before I made it, due to really bad groups.

1st you say "Official interviews ftw. Running was designed into it.", then you say, "Running was a design element. Lornar's was most likely made for running..."
So, which is it? And wheres the interview link?
BTW, the closet Ive ever come to running someone was a trip from Piken(I think, may have been Nolani), with 2 other people. It was right after I had ascended, had no elites yet(wanted to get missions done before going back to cap), so it was that much harder. Anyway, all I did was throw some heals on them, no fighting for me, they did that, I just kept throwing heals when they needed it. Just outside Yaks, one of them runs ahead, aggros a bunch of Stone Summit, and Im trying to attack, AND heal at same time. Run out of energy, and we all die. One ragequit, other had good sense, knew quitter was wrong to aggro so many, made it fine after that.
Sorry post is so long, but I had alot to say.
Edit:Wanted to say the person I took to Yaks was lvl 9-10 at the time, and my warrior was lvl 10 when I got there(henching), so it wasnt like they were a lvl 5 or anything.

Amy Awien · Aug 17, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

Yes, I know, but you should be able to go anywhere, on the map, just not be able to do much of anything, and not be able to get into towns you havent unlocked the gates to.

Why not go into town?

I am getting really tired of people like you who can only say how things should be this way or that way without ever saying why they think so. I've explained what I don't like about the locked gates. Now it's your turn.

Quote:

Reread thread from page 1, never saw that quote.

It is right here.

But ... do you realize you are actually quoting from that post? You don't really read, do you?

Quote:

That seems ass backwards to me, maybe its because Im not the "runner type".

Now you are implying that anyone who dislikes the locked gates is a "runner type".

Quote:

Theres less to do, but people are in MORE of a hurry? Dont see how that makes or could make, any sense at all.

People are trying to get a "Masters" on the missions which usually means doing it fast. In Prohecies the Mission Bonus was usually an extra task, there was no pressure to rush (and even Rurik takes a break once in while).

Quote:

IDK, maybe there should be an Uberizer button, when making a new character, you press Uberize,

And now you are plain insulting ... so there is a use for the ignore list after all. Don't bother with a reply.

Mordakai · Aug 17, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

It's funny to me that most of the arguments for Gates revolve around Prophecy, and really don't apply to Factions (ie, access to max armor is very early in Factions, you level faster, etc.)

No one has yet to come up with a single valid reason to have gates.

I do like some of the ideas that have come from the discussion, like having multiple missions that can be done in any order, maybe even different branches.

Who knows, maybe Nightfall will have some of these features...

gamecube187 · Aug 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

There is progressivly more skills availeble the further you get in Kainang City and beond.

In factions, you don't get any new skills to buy once you get to kainenge. I looked through all the skills and bought any good once with my monk, as soon as I got to kainenge. I cheched every single skill person throughout the game and saw no change. At the end of the game, I was dissapointed because there were no new skills availible to buy after I went to kainenge. The exact same thing happened to my friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Players skipping missions has never made them incompleteable for other people. You can do every mission+bonus in Prophecies with henchmen, and I still maintain that a henchman group is *more* likely to be successful than a PUG.

I'm glad you can somehow do good with henchies, but for me they always do horrible and cause me to fail a lot of the missions I do with them. Then I get a accual human group and it is 110% easier (99% of the time). I just don't know how to prevent henchies from agroing groups I don't want aggroed or running into the middle of a enemy group to try to rez another henchie that died, and ending up dead by doing so. I don't know how to control the henchies as well as you seem to, so I have to get a player group most of the time for missions.

Oh, wait, your talking about prophecies....well, that is a lot easier with henchies, but some I just can't do some missions with them, and those ones always happen to be either in fire islands, or one of the missions that many players skip so there aren't enough people to get a group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Reading through the various pro-gate comments I'm tending to agree. I can't see any really solid reason in support of it. Ruins game etc. has all been addressed several times (it does not make any real difference). So I'm going to conclude several just want to force their viewpoint on everyone else.

The fact is freely explorable areas (no gates) will have NO impact on others. Prophecies had maybe two places you had to do, but the rest was free to explore and/or run or ignore even. Where are the many threads about runners ruining that game? I don't see them. How exactly did it have a negative effect on those pro-gate? It didn't, that's how. Gates did not magically increase the quality of PUGs, in fact made it worse because less people can be bothered to do everything all over again for the nth time.

Two options: force everyone to do the same damn thing just like you (if you're pro-gate) or have a free world where people can choose to do missions if they want, or not. The first option looks more and more dictatorial with no real (proven) benefits overall, and seems to be from some of the posts in here supported just to see others unhappy almost. The second you get the choices, you can find other players who want to do the mission (instead of people who feel like they're being forced to do it, HUGE difference) or you can play the game however you like without others making you do it their way.

What would you rather be? 1 person in a group of 8 who wants to do the mission, while the other 7 all feel like they're being forced to do it again... or 1 person in a group where everyone in the group chooses to do the mission. I know which I'd much prefer.

I'm not trying to force my opinion, and runners do impact people trying to do the missions. I don't care if the people that got run are just as good as the people that didn't. That isn't the point. The point is, with gates, people have to go to and do the missions. That means there will be more people looking for groups, which mean you can get a group for a mission without waiting forever, and real players are almost always better than henchies.

Also, if anything, I think you are trying to force your opinion since you seem to talk about forcing opinion so much.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

I just don't want to see any more bloody restrictions on areas. I don't care what team just won Halls, I just want to go to the Underworld. I don't care who has farmed the most faction. I just want to come and go from the elite missions without standing around for a half hour spamming to get a ride. I'm not locked out any Counter-Strike maps if some dude in Seoul is having a good run. But, Guild Wars seems to love only unlocking your content when someone you've never met reaches some goal you really don't care about.

Now that is something I think a lot of us can agree on, and really needs to be fixed/changed. At least make a way around it if we don't have favor or something, like quests that need to be redone every week or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

It's funny to me that most of the arguments for Gates revolve around Prophecy, and really don't apply to Factions (ie, access to max armor is very early in Factions, you level faster, etc.)

No one has yet to come up with a single valid reason to have gates.

I do like some of the ideas that have come from the discussion, like having multiple missions that can be done in any order, maybe even different branches.

Who knows, maybe Nightfall will have some of these features...

Are you reading my posts? The only reason I want gates is to have more people do the missions so it isn't almost impossible to get a player group. That would apply to cantha. If it weren't for the gates, what would a lot of people do? They would probably just skip the first missions and go to the luxon/kurzick area. They would probably also just go straight to the last mission so then they can get a green really easy. I can think of a few missions in cantha that are already unpopulated, and would probably have been abandoned by now if not for the gates.

Also, I agree that the multiple missions in any order or something like that would be much better than gates. People (hopefully) wouldn't find a way around it, like they did in prophecies, but they (probably) won't complain about it either, because it gives them so much choice. I hope nightfall has something similar to it!

Edit
Sorry for yet another long post from me...

Rera · Aug 18, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamecube187

I'm glad you can somehow do good with henchies, but for me they always do horrible and cause me to fail a lot of the missions I do with them. Then I get a accual human group and it is 110% easier (99% of the time).

This isn't a point we can reasonably argue over because each viewpoint is backed up by personal experience alone. However, I will continue to maintain that henchmen are better than PUGs, so I still can't accept the claim that not having actual players at mission towns makes them incompleteable. I also believe my position is stronger than yours because many people have claimed to finish the game with henchies, and I haven't heard many cases where someone was unable to complete a mission with just henchmen (in fact, you are the only example I can recall).

But let's address the larger argument on your terms. Let's assume that lack of a real group *can* make a mission incompletable, or at least makes completing the mission so difficult so as to be unreasonable. Under this assumption, *anything* that causes a lack of players at a mission town, or anything that causes a difficulty in finding groups, must be called into question.

We would have to remove henchmen, because clearly some people can complete the mission using them, and some people prefer using them over using a real party, making them unavailable to the rest of the players as a potential party member. In other words, we must force all players to play with a party, to make getting parties easier. We would also have to overhaul our current party invite system, because right now it's easy to leave parties, kick people from parties, and simply not accept people into parties, and all of these makes it more difficult for some people to find parties. We should also make endgame missions more easily accessible, to address the lack of players at those missions (running actually helps here, ironically).

Is it reasonable to force people to play in real parties? I don't think so. Should I be forced to group with some annoying leroy wammo or tanking assassin just so he can find a group? I don't think so. So why should I be forced to do every mission in the game just so someone else can find parties more easily? Answer: I shouldn't.

The elegant solution to the problem is to provide strong incentives to complete each mission. There's a strong incentive to beat the final mission of Factions: you get a free green. And I do a lot of the missions in Factions not just because I have to, but because they're short, and they actually give decent XP and skill points if you can make masters in one try (which you can most of the time). Why did people skip so many missions in Prophecies? Because there wasn't any point in beating them. That piddly 1k XP and one skill point just isn't worth it when I could pick any popular farming spot and make ten times that amount in the same period. There just wasn't any reason to complete those missions.

Swampgirl Inez · Aug 18, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

This has been argued before and is starting catch fire.

Closed.