Curse

Skyy High · Aug 21, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

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Or why caster damage skills in general are so poor. I think it's a consequence of Guild Wars being relatively slow compared to 'twitch' games, and much more strategic, with a high value placed on death. What I mean is, if you look at wizards historically through the genre, they used spells that had ridiculous damage outputs or crowd control effects. This was fine in PvE (endurance contests), but in PvP things broke messily. So the archtype had to be reworked to avoid the WTF Blowout factors. The trouble is, once you start pulling the pure frontloaded aspect away from the archtype, it naturally turns into a DPS archtype. While the nuking archtype is being chopped up and reworked, the standby DPS archtype - physicals - are effectively untouched. So what you have is a poor shock-and-awe archtype (because that breaks games messily) which is forced to play the DPS game (which it is terrible at) because blowing people out with huge spells isn't good for games.

Another way to look at it is to compare the game to a first person shooter. Most of those games are very fast paced (so execution is usually haphazard) and put a very low price on death - respawn, lose 15-20 seconds of position and some powerups (varies by game and type). So in that sort of environment you can easily have very powerful but very balanced weapons, sniper rifle style. It'll miss often enough just because of the nature of the game, and when it does hit it isn't a huge deal.

Now take that sort of gametype and give everyone an aimbot. The balance instantly goes to hell because those crazy frontloaded, one hit weapons just blow people out instantly. So you have to drop the rail damage on 'em to make 'em multihit. Ok, that's reasonable. Now slow down gameplay so that teams can coordinate better, link up with each other reliably, etc. Now rail weapons are ridiculous again, as teams can coordinate to blast opponents together and reproduce the instakill effect. So those effects get nerfed further. Ok, now put a very high price on deaths. That makes all of the instakill effects very dangerous from a balance standpoint, so they need to be made very unreliable or situational. So those get scaled back as well.

So you go through all of these changes, and you have a reasonably balanced game from where you started, albeit a very different one. But then you start playing it and notice that all people use are hitscan weapons (machineguns, etc). Those don't break anything...except they're the only good weapon left, because everything else has been nerfed to hell.

Warriors are machine guns. Elementalists are nerfed sniper rifles that can't headshot, and need 5 shots to the chest to kill anything.

By far the best explanation for the elementalist's situation in this game I have read. Makes perfect sense.

Personally, I'm partial to the idea of making "Energy Storage" work more like an attunement - whenever you cast an elemental spell, you gain a certain percentage (between 1% and 2%) of the energy back for every rank in ES. That, or you could make it reduce the cost of spells; a caster-oriented Expertise, with the same limitation that Divine Favor has (only works on ele spells).

Ensign's original post on why eles suck at dealing damage noted that an ele spamming lightning strike could reach a nice dps, but to spam it continuously required either a lot of energy, or dual attunements. So...if you want to make the elementalist more dps-friendly, give them innate, unremovable attunements.

0mar · Aug 21, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

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Originally Posted by falling demon

hows about 1.5% armor penetration per rank in ES?
i dont know what the argument about Warriors not beating Eles if damage increase was introduced, warriors arent MEANT to beat eles in damage, Warriors are meant to be the guys who soak up the damage, Eles are meant to DEAL most of it

Warriors can do over 250 damage in two hits (Eviscerate + Executioner's strike = ~250 damage due to the deepwound from Eviscerate) in about 1 second (frenzied/tiger's fury). Eles can do about 200 in 3 seconds (surge + orb), but any good monk knows who's going to get spiked because surge is a hex and good communication will save that person 90% of the time.

Warriors easily outdamage Eles in almost every scenario, even with a flashbot spamming blinding flash. There's a reason why you see 2-3 warriors on a team and only 1 ele (usually heal party/blinding flash/ether prodigy). Necros can outdamage eles as well, because their spells ignore armor (shadow damage), recharge faster (2-8 second recharges on most of them) and the life-steal spells can even avoid protection spells. Mesmers can shutdown players either by interupting skills, hexing people to hell, or energy denying the other players. It seems that the majority of Guilds only use Eles for spamming heal party and blinding flash. It's a sad state of affairs for the ele in PvP, but that's the way it is.

Trylo · Aug 21, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

@ demon
Last time i checked wars get 1% AP per lvl in str, so lets give them +4 energy per rank too since your giving that AP to elementalists.

2%, even 1% more damage from elemental spells works for me, i just dont like the -60 health from a 15-25e spell when a war is hitting for 58 damage on a normal hit with 3 less ranks in the damaging (axe vs element) attribute.

theres obviously something wrong with the energy to output proportions. i like saying proportions because thats what is wrong with the elementalist. the spells deal far less than what im putting into them, my energy doesnt recharge as fast as i waste my energy, +36 energy doesnt help me. my armor isnt proportional to the amount of damage i can deal (elem vs war), my spike potential isnt proportional to the energy wasted (Lightning Orb vs Oppresive Spike).

The more and more i look at it, it seems as though wards are the only thing that eles have that are well designed. melee is like an AOE gaurdian, like an aegis for less energy and that has 20duaration/20 cooldown. Ward against harm is by far the greatest protection in this game, +24 vs everything is giving all your casters warrior armor, and the best part is it cannot be stopped. NOTHING can stop it, it can be precasted, 1 second cast is fairly easy to interupt, but still this makes balance. Water is by far one of the most effective lines, i would put it right next to earth.

Symbol · Aug 21, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

funny thing... people keep telling me things are balanced because they have obvious counters. Touch rangers are balanced because they can be snared and degened to death. Warriors are balanced because they can be blinded. EoE balanced because it can be killed. SS balanced because it is elite... bla bla bla...

Can you do anything besides making horrible strawman arguments?

Touch rangers aren't balanced because counters exist, they're balanced because said counters have broad applicability and can be included in almost any team build without detriment. Warriors aren't necessarily balanced, clearly warrior offense is heads and shoulders above that available to most other classes, esp casters-but that doesn't mean something is wrong with warriors-it just means that casters need to be brought up to par. SS is obviously imbalanced in PvE, so I have no idea what you're babbling about when you brought it up.

What you don't realize is that the mere existence of a counter isn't enough, the counter must also be sufficiently useful that including it in your build doesn't cripple it against everything else.

In the case of your ludicrous 200+ damage orb interrupts are not a good counter, period:
1) Orb has a 5sec recharge, most interrupts have recharges that are considerably greater
2) You can easily get around interrupts by taking mantra of concentration/resolve.
and most importantly
3) Mass interrupts are not sufficiently useful to warrant including in a build in a game sans 200 damage orb.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

funny thing... people keep telling me things are balanced because they have obvious counters.

Those people are wrong.

Peace,
-CxE

Ira Blinks · Aug 22, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Can you do anything besides making horrible strawman arguments?

i dont recall doing anything like that, but if you say so...

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Touch rangers aren't balanced because counters exist, they're balanced because said counters have broad applicability and can be included in almost any team build without detriment.

this is your problem right here. Counters are widespread because they are REQUIRED to survive.
Played RA or Aspenwood lately? Touch rangers rock them like no tomorrow. Why? Because nobody builds specifically to counter them. Because you are REQUIRED to counter touch ranger OR you WILL die. People in random arenas can not do that and so touchies having fun of their life.
With ele you are not required to do anything - ignore him and you still will be just fine or beat him with your axe and he will run like a worthless covard he is.

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What you don't realize is that the mere existence of a counter isn't enough, the counter must also be sufficiently useful that including it in your build doesn't cripple it against everything else.

ummm no, thats exactly what I do realize and you don't. The said touch ranger is a good example. While any give ele is countered by just about anything in this game.

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In the case of your ludicrous 200+ damage orb interrupts are not a good counter, period:
1) Orb has a 5sec recharge, most interrupts have recharges that are considerably greater
2) You can easily get around interrupts by taking mantra of concentration/resolve.
and most importantly
3) Mass interrupts are not sufficiently useful to warrant including in a build in a game sans 200 damage orb.

oh well, if you say period you must be know what you talking about... no wait...
Honestly I don't feel like struggling against "black is white because i said so" argument.

Ira Blinks · Aug 22, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Those people are wrong.

Peace,
-CxE

i used to think so to, but so many people told me to stfu and learn to counter i dont even know anymore.

Master Fuhon · Aug 22, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

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Originally Posted by Skyy High

That, or you could make it reduce the cost of spells; a caster-oriented Expertise, with the same limitation that Divine Favor has (only works on ele spells).

I never liked how monk/ritualist/warrior/assassin primaries almost completely limit the class to doing certain things. The ranger (expertise on tons of things), necromancer (anything dies), and mesmer (all spells) all lead to the possibility of drastic play style changes. I think it would be nice for a warrior to have armor penetration on spells because they are already the worst spell casters, although it would be completely absurd. I guess strength would have to be changed to "Overpower: warrior's attacks and spells deal damage with %armor penetration." I would have been happier maybe with the warrior having 70 base AL +20 physical with the strength attribute adding onto the armor (with respective changes to new armor, some issues with the str required one).

I also missed out on all ally effecting skills (mostly enchantments, inspired hex) getting divine favor bonuses, not that it would change many builds besides having divine boon trigger on random things and signets. The only thing I can think of being in issue is that Divine Favor could trigger on allied corpses, ressurecting them from the dead. I would have gone so far as to enjoy shouts triggering divine favor, but that encroaches on Paragon territory. This might not have worked because of how party wide skills only trigger on self, but if that was changed, monks would be nicer to run Heal Party, Aegis, and Orders.

Mesmers fast action on other types of skills to make them nearly immune to interrupts? I really haven't thought about that one yet. Assassins need critical strikes for weapon damage, but they don't have any energy gain type things for stealthy manuevers and hexes/enchantments. Spells don't critical in this game, and I'm clueless about the process of fixing almost all unusable hexes with powerful effects, high costs, and high recharges. The ritualist primary works on minions and ranger spirits, but I hate losing my weapon bonuses for summoning urns. What is it that would help make a ritualist appeal as a healer when he has no divine favor and underpowered heals for energy costs?

Problem with Dervishes is that the primary attribute could absolutely blow out anything that currently exists in the game, because of the limitations already placed on the classes as primaries. I guess the only option is to limit them in the same way.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

....comparison of guild wars with FPS game with aimbots and high penalty on death...

Agreed completely with what I interpret from the explanation, for a game where all spells can be thought of as a projectiles aimed from one target to another, damaging outward in some type of radius only after the point of impact.

About other games in the genre, DoTs work well when the AoE and the energy costs start as soon as the spell is casted and you can interrupt the guy casting in order to end the spell before the end of the effects. I don't know how that would work with this game's programming without them being classified as hexes on a target or being maintained enchants.

Other types of abilities usally radiate outwards from the front side of the caster only, in the shapes of cones or semicircles. These are replicated in guild wars as the Inferno/Lava Font spells. Problems mostly being with aftercasts to prevent casting combos. Occasionally, you also have the straight line spell that penetrates through the intended target to hit something directly in line with it. Closest thing to this is Chain Lightning. Multi-shot spells are crappy when compared to barrage; Lava Arrows has half range. Then there are the flatbow-arcing spells that could probably use a slight decrease in the time it takes to get there.

I think the balancing usually runs into the problem of making sense with the abilities that they give a certain class, and to some extent, following the lore that has existed in the games from the genre. Warriors and Paragons use adrenaline, but every class has the capability to hit with an attack and build it. This also seems to me to be the reasons why skills, hexes, enchantments, stances, spirits, shouts and signets are scattered among a few of the classes. Then there are the uniques: glyphs, wells, urns, teleports, and weapon spells that have no direct skill counters. Guild Wars warriors are already lore-breaking, gaining the knockdown ability from elemental powers rather than brute force. How far should the game go with dispelling the familiar aspects of the genre in the name of balance?

I would say, fire magic works best hitting fast and hard, and giving lower damage burning afterwards. Cold magic usually has snares inherently placed into the DoT. Earth and single target Air magic are things I haven't seen before, but they are replicating the 1v1 spells and defenses that exist in other games from other magical characters. Air is strong in this game, with blind, spike, knockdown, and the largely unusable nuke. Earth is supposed to represent the defenses that the wizard can create: wards are nice, but the self defense buffs are lacking. Wizard defenses are at the most effective when they can slow the melee attackers and create separation, and these usually have to be maintained at all times for survival. On an 8 skill bar with necessary high allocation into energy storage and an element, the class self-defense skills need to be found in at least every combination of two elements. Following the ideas that already exist in the genre will not allow you the creativity of developing the skills too far beyond the point we are at now.

The games premium on movement should prevent the wizards from blowing everything out with DoT for a while (as long as it can't move at high speeds), but the spikes from boosted damage spells make the game closer to the unbalanced scenario that you described. Knockdown is kind of overpowered, since it both interrupts and prevents you from doing almost everything except activating stances. But speed bursts are cheap and easy, and hex snares/cripple have had higher costs associated. This is a game that is otherwise lacking the paralysis condition and the unremovable stuns that would completely destroy most characters in seconds. Although a class that only has access to spells is already the most easily shutdown.

Phades · Aug 22, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Or why caster damage skills in general are so poor. I think it's a consequence of Guild Wars being relatively slow compared to 'twitch' games, and much more strategic, with a high value placed on death. What I mean is, if you look at wizards historically through the genre, they used spells that had ridiculous damage outputs or crowd control effects.

It really depends on if you are refering towards single player fantasy settings, where the power is scaled according to relative player level opposed to encounter level, or if you are refering to MMO settings where the ranged DD guy typically has always been gimp in the sustained and up front damage due to the possibility of pvp. The only saving grace tended to be the superior skill variety and/or AOE skills that match, if not exceede the potentcy of the single target skills (by volume).

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Originally Posted by Ensign

So the archtype had to be reworked to avoid the WTF Blowout factors.

Unfortunatly they knee jerked with caster based damage, but physical damage got ignored.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

So what you have is a poor shock-and-awe archtype (because that breaks games messily) which is forced to play the DPS game (which it is terrible at) because blowing people out with huge spells isn't good for games.

It really depends on the game. However, the common stereotype seems to follow that physical is the best damage dealer in most situations, while casters are meant for situation control. The problem occurs when it becomes a war between situation control individuals to see who gets their physical damage dealers the most play in a rock, paper, scissor environment like GW. Due to things like the current damage caps, the scissors can never cut the paper because of the damage up front concern.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Another way to look at it is to compare the game to a first person shooter. Most of those games are very fast paced (so execution is usually haphazard) and put a very low price on death - respawn, lose 15-20 seconds of position and some powerups (varies by game and type). So in that sort of environment you can easily have very powerful but very balanced weapons, sniper rifle style. It'll miss often enough just because of the nature of the game, and when it does hit it isn't a huge deal.

In the environemnt you described, it reminded me alot of planetside. Baiscally when you allow for this situation to occur, the "precision" weapon ends up being employed as a makeshift shotgun, due to the mechanics and objectives of the game. If you have a precision weapon that does not match the dps of heavier close weaponry, is inable to penetrate armor effectivly, can be foiled by more simple meduim weaponry, or by stealth, it becomes a obscelete and useless item. Even so, with the generalization to fps, there are alot of fps games that have virtually no tactical change and it becomes merely an reflex aptitude test. In the more strategic ones, you will observe a more rock, paper, scissor environment, but any of the different choices can beat any of the other choices depending on how each are employed. By contrast to a rpg style setup, the values of effect are pretty much set into stone and the only real margin for error tends to lie within coordination and strategy.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Warriors are machine guns. Elementalists are nerfed sniper rifles that can't headshot, and need 5 shots to the chest to kill anything.

Well, wars can also triple shot a shottie into someone as well, while most everyone else is still forced into the cast mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

If they need to play the DPS game, find a way to make them unique and good at it.

The dervish is the closest thing that comes to mind that fits that description, assuming the skill and the class do not change alot.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

You can't get trapped in it currently because it doesn't knock you down until second 3, and it has the small AoE. If it knocked down from the beginning, it would always get that first hit, and the second one might be difficult to avoid as well (you only have one second to get out of the way).

Due to the pitiful AOE size, you can escape after being knocked down once by meteor shower if you arent directly in the center. If the AOE was expanded, it would help "guarentee" 2 k/d hits, but not the 3rd on the intended target. If the skill is meant to drive away people, then it needs to be a larger aoe to deny territory effectivly. If it is meant to actually cause any damage to the target for the full effect and be balanced against its full effect, then it also needs a larger AOE to help guarentee the full effect on the target. Even if the target cannot escape, there are some defensive skills that can be fit into the window between knockdowns. It would still be easy for any outside assistance to occur before the spell reaches the conclusion. Hell, you could even react to a meteor shower with a ritualist using shelter before it gets the last hit in.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

With a medium AoE, I don't think you could ever get out of the way of the second meteor, and the third would be a real threat. I am really scared of that sort of self-contained knocklock from a PvP perspective. If you want to work to hold someone in a met shower, that's great, but the skill shouldn't hold them in it alone.

Considering the behavior of ele based snares and every DOT aoe, its hard work just getting the first hit in. If anything, id be more concerned about the warrior based self contained knock locks before meteor shower even with an expanded AOE size. I understand your concern, but it reallly only applies to the intended target, which is really no different than other combination shutdown methods given the drawbacks involved with elementalist spells.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

I think the AoE could be bigger if the meteors didn't start to hit until the 3rd second. But I feel that the first hit is more important to the skill than the larger AoE, making it more reliable, but harder to outright break games with.

If a meteor lands in the first second, you will get 1k/d in most instances with some misses and never a 2nd hit without extenuating circumstances. Fireball can be dodged and meteor can be avoided. This is the parity you are looking for i believe.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Maelstrom doesn't hold you in the effect by itself, you need to snare someone otherwise to keep them there - and the snare effect is usually slow enough that you could largely get out of the AoE in the time given. It's much less dangerous than knocklock storm as well, because, well, no knocklock. I could see increasing the AoE on this one, if other costs wanted to be altered as well. The difference, again, is that you can escape

The thing is the knock lock in fire is about the same as snare + malestorm, due to the fact that ice has snares. When comparing the two in unsnared hits they both kinda suck, but with snares the k/ds make meteor shower better. The difference in damage output is like night and day as well though. To say that meteorshower is better because all DOT aoe skills need a k/d to get more damage out of them ill agree with, but that does not mean that they both share the same drawbacks given the target area versus movement available.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind the skill has more to do with Ice Imps than anything else. The graphic is pretty much set in stone at this point - a majority of elementalist AoE effects have misleading AoE graphics, and I expect those to be fixed about the same time they fix the animation on Reversal of Fortune. If they won't even bother to fix graphics on the most used skill in PvP, you can guess where on the priority list an unused skill is.

Considering 1 warrior can nearly solo infinte quantities of ice imps, i really do not see what the issue is.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

It's closer to 3 seconds with sprint up. You can land an Ice Spikes on a warrior cast at maximum range, and still prekite.

Yeah i forgot sprint is 25%, i was thinking 33% or greater run speed boosts.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Not really, there are other counters to interruption as well. However, the elementalist only has two really awesome skills besides his energy elite (Blinding Flash and Deep Freeze), and one of them happens to also be a very strong counter to interruption, so I really don't see a need to dig any deeper.

I dunno, when someone can just walk up to me and use shock, blackout, gale from a distance, in addition to the myriad of mesmer options, i dont think that only using blinding flash is a reasonable answer especially with how quickly it can be removed compared to how slow elementalist skills are to cast. Then again we have been talking a bit about DOT aoe skills, which air and water are largely devoid of, which would imply that other elements should be condisdered being brought and as a consequence force the ele to leave behind things like deep freeze and blinding flash.

Symbol · Aug 22, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

i dont recall doing anything like that, but if you say so...

this is your problem right here. Counters are widespread because they are REQUIRED to survive.
Played RA or Aspenwood lately? Touch rangers rock them like no tomorrow. Why? Because nobody builds specifically to counter them. Because you are REQUIRED to counter touch ranger OR you WILL die. People in random arenas can not do that and so touchies having fun of their life.
With ele you are not required to do anything - ignore him and you still will be just fine or beat him with your axe and he will run like a worthless covard he is.

Wrong. Snares and degen are useful tools. They counter all melee professions. They provide good pressure that goes right through prots. You can fit them into lots of builds without reducing their utility.

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ummm no, thats exactly what I do realize and you don't. The said touch ranger is a good example. While any give ele is countered by just about anything in this game.

See above. You don't know what you're talking about.

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oh well, if you say period you must be know what you talking about... no wait...
Honestly I don't feel like struggling against "black is white because i said so" argument.

Hello? I just gave you three very clear reasons why interrupts are not a justification for allowing a 200 damage orb. In my previous post I also pointed out why said 200 damage orb is overpowered.

You on the other hand have done nothing but whine and wave your hands. Seriously, stop wasting time and shut up if you're not going to contribute to the discussion.

Ristaron · Aug 22, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

The Elementalist class has gone from "I've had the game for two days and I can handle all four of you myself with this skillbar I threw together" to "Alright... ele... what the hell can I do?"

Those who have the creativity to come up with new strategies for elementalists find more pleasure in them... but ANet - as has already been stated - has nerfed them so badly that a new genius strategy is required for every situation.
And, of course, the diehard elitists these days (90% of the experienced population) don't accept innovative new ideas unless they see some exceptional video on the net.
Thus the new ideas don't become popular unless they're conceived by a high-end guild, and even then the true genius of them is recognized by few, and used by fewer.

Elementalists will survive the introduction of the Dervish and Paragon, but who will use them if they're not visibly buffed to counter the nerfing that they have been hit with since day 1? Nobody.

Ira Blinks · Aug 22, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Wrong. Snares and degen are useful tools. They counter all melee professions. They provide good pressure that goes right through prots. You can fit them into lots of builds without reducing their utility.

bah... You say I'm wrong, I say I'm right. I played this game and you have set here and theoritized about how easy it it to fit snares and degen. But I guess you right, touch rangers are not rocking random PvE, because virtually every second build has counters to them, and me and hundreds of other visitors of this forum just imagined being killed by them...

You know what you problem is? You think everything you say is a proven fact.

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See above. You don't know what you're talking about.

is it because you already realized that you arguing with your mighty logic against well known fact?
In case you still dont get it: Touch rangers required to be countered and eles are not.

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Hello? I just gave you three very clear reasons why interrupts are not a justification for allowing a 200 damage orb. In my previous post I also pointed out why said 200 damage orb is overpowered.

no, you gave me three carefuly crafted and insanely biased reasons.
1) Oh yes, they also tend to steal energy, do damage and disable used spell, but that ofcourse doesn't count, right? I mean if you can't shutdown ele with one interrupt on your bar, then that ele simply have to be overpowered...
E-bay yourself some brains, ok?
2) Oh the power of what-if... What if ele uses a mantra... What if you use shutdown/e-denial? What if you dodge that orb? What if you apply prot spell? What if you start thinking beond one argument ahead?
3) Good job Sherlock, this time you got it right. Interrupts are not useful. Why? Because ele spells are not worth being interrupted. The moment you see an ele raising his/her hands and think "zomg! I HAVE TO interrupt that spell" (the same way as you go "zomg! I HAVE TO snare that melee guy charging on me") then we got the balance right.

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You on the other hand have done nothing but whine and wave your hands. Seriously, stop wasting time and shut up if you're not going to contribute to the discussion.

I think it is the other way around, but thats just me.

Symbol · Aug 22, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

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Originally Posted by Ira Binks

bah... You say I'm wrong, I say I'm right. I played this game and you have set here and theoritized about how easy it it to fit snares and degen. But I guess you right, touch rangers are not rocking random PvE, because virtually every second build has counters to them, and me and hundreds of other visitors of this forum just imagined being killed by them...

You know what you problem is? You think everything you say is a proven fact.

No I don't think that. If did I'd just say "you're wrong" and leave it at that. Instead I'm wasting my time actually providing reasons (that you don't read and/or understand) for my opinion and rebutting yours (such as they are).

Unlike you I know how to form a coherent argument, and how to justify my opinions.

Furthermore, who the hell is talking about random pvp? Basing balance discussions on random pvp is pointless. In a team setting, touchers are simply not an issue. Anyway I'm not discussing this issue with you anymore. If you want to whine about touchers, then you can post in one of the hojillion threads already devoted to that purpose. Stop hijacking this one.

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is it because you already realized that you arguing with your mighty logic against well known fact?
In case you still dont get it: Touch rangers required to be countered and eles are not.

No shit, sherlock. But you need to counter warriors. You need to counter assassins. You even need to counter rangers. You even need to "counter" (in so far as raw damage usually can't get the job done) monks. That you don't need to counter elementalists says nothing about touchers, it just shows that elementalists are underpowered, something that I never disputed.

Jeez you are dense.

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1) Oh yes, they also tend to steal energy, do damage and disable used spell, but that ofcourse doesn't count, right? I mean if you can't shutdown ele with one interrupt on your bar, then that ele simply have to be overpowered...

Oh nose! You can steal energy from the class with the best energy management in the game, boohoo! Sure you can distracting shot that orb, bfd. You can blind the distracter too.

Good job producing yet another idiotic strawman though! (your "you can't shutdown ele with one interrupt -> ele is overpowered" bullshit).

Let's follow your line of "reasoning" to its logical conclusion. Why limit orb to 200 damage, why not a nice round 1000? Afterall your counters still apply. You can still interrupt it, dodge it, neuter it with prot spirit. Hey, it's not overpowered in the least!

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2) Oh the power of what-if... What if ele uses a mantra... What if you use shutdown/e-denial? What if you dodge that orb? What if you apply prot spell? What if you start thinking beond one argument ahead?

Get a clue. Do you seriously think that edenying an elementalist is going to prevent him from activating mantras? Or that being able to dodge the orb somehow justifies insane levels of damage? Please

By that retarded argument we should buff ranger bow attacks to ridiculous proportions too. After all you can dodge them! And apply prots! And edeny!

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3) Good job Sherlock, this time you got it right. Interrupts are not useful. Why? Because ele spells are not worth being interrupted. The moment you see an ele raising his/her hands and think "zomg! I HAVE TO interrupt that spell" (the same way as you go "zomg! I HAVE TO snare that melee guy charging on me") then we got the balance right.

No mass interrupts are not useful because they're flat out ineffective against a lot of classes. It's very difficult to shutdown a physical, or a boon prot, with interrupts for example. Bringing enough interrupts to completely shutdown a team spiking with 5s recharge 200 damage orbs will cripple you against anything else. And guess what, you absolutely do need to shutdown said team, because even 3 orbs getting through will net a kill on any soft target.

Get over your monomaniacal fixation on elementalists and think about the rest of the game.

That's why using "interrupts" as a justification for idiotically overpowered elementalist skills is, and always will be, a horrid idea.

Quote:

I think it is the other way around, but thats just me.

Spare me your drivel, you haven't been doing any thinking at all. It's ironic that you accuse me of making an argument from authority, when you've yet to provide a single shred of justification (besides "elementalists should do more damage", lawl) for the ES change.

Xpl0iter · Aug 22, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

I just noticed something awkward. Has any one noticed the damage done with same spell in PVE vs PVP?

if one says PVE doesn't matter then rest of the arguments seems viable, Otherwise, Not.

Ensign, if all the ideas are just going to get worst, why don't you come up with something not just based on skill description change like you did before?
I still do not see no damage appearing regardless of the very first meteor hitting a foe in PVE. Knocking down a foe is kind of an interupt. Doing that with a mesmer and necro is easier in pve. Their spells do not affect an area, but a Foe or number of foes.

what do you consider anet doing to an ele in their current situations where they need to be balanced for both PVE and PVP when compared to any other profession out there?

Any damage fixed for PVE high end purposes seems to be breaking the game in PVP. Any PVP fixture seems to be gimping an ele for PVE purposes. Armour difference or mob level difference? I wonder.

dgb · Aug 22, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You can't get trapped in it currently because it doesn't knock you down until second 3, and it has the small AoE. If it knocked down from the beginning, it would always get that first hit, and the second one might be difficult to avoid as well (you only have one second to get out of the way). With a medium AoE, I don't think you could ever get out of the way of the second meteor, and the third would be a real threat. I am really scared of that sort of self-contained knocklock from a PvP perspective. If you want to work to hold someone in a met shower, that's great, but the skill shouldn't hold them in it alone.

Just curious, what do you think when I put out the combo of your buffed meteor shower (four hits, first pulse on one second in), glyph of sacrifice/essence (your choice) and earthbind.

I remember smacking round one of those idiot Mo/R healballs in HA with this combo once we interupted their ward of stability - it just seems the idea of an impossible to break (without killing the spirit which is another argument in itself) knocklock for 12 seconds seems stupidly good without even considering catching multiple guys in there. Get two monks and GG. At the 15 Spawning 14 Communing break, Earthbind can survive sixteen knockdowns so it's probably not going to die from that.

If you've got a smart guy with Ward Stab. on his bar, he'll get in there and drop it into the shower to get you out but there's not a lot of ways out of it.

Good luck in the championship as well.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 22, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Its sad that that due to the tone of the posts here the main ideas pass by unnoticed.

My opinion after reading the "hottie" posts is that:

eles need to deal more damage

Eles can deal good damage but after the first hit people become aware of them and voila! neverending inters coming up because of their slow casting, and then they are useless.

inters > ele, and more dmg can be a compensation to the ele

Yes 5 secs recharge would make a 200 dmg hit a threat but let me tell you that if you use distracting shot (8 secs recharge) on it then Orb has 25 secs recharge. Add Savage with its 5 secs recharge and then the ele is totally neutralized.

when i play ranger vs an Air ele i wait for her Orb and her elite. After distracting shot them both i say "ok im done" and switch target. If she seeks vengeance then i repeat the dose. But if she could give anyone a really boom shakalaka! i would keep my attention on her. Yes i can be blinded all the time but then she will focus her whole attention on me: Blind flash = 10 secs effect and 5 secs recharge. And Geez! i have 100 armor vs her attacks so i dont care. But if she forgets to blind me shes dead.

My personal conclusion is: a ranger inters and switches target, the ele cannot give herself that privilege because if she does it means death, or in the happiest case total shutdown.

GW is not balanced and the repetition of skills is an example

Toucher ranger is a very clever and funnny build that uses expertise as a way to profit a "glitch", as it is 55 monk, 2 man UW, 1 man farmers, and so on. It can be stopped with not a specific build but that does not mean "balance": the bias is not the use of expertise on necro skills but the fact that the toucher is using the repeated skills Vamp touch & bite, thats a terrible mistake of ANET. Same idea vs a MM at AB using Heal area and Karei Circle, you just cannot kill her. Shall we have the same oligophrenic deja vu at Nightfall? im afraid so...

Id love more concern about all facets of this game

Unfortunately, most of the people that post here do not care about PvE, faction battles and random arenas. But the game is more than "serious" PvP, at least for me.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 22, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

The Elementalist class has gone from "I've had the game for two days and I can handle all four of you myself with this skillbar I threw together" to "Alright... ele... what the hell can I do?"

Those who have the creativity to come up with new strategies for elementalists find more pleasure in them... but ANet - as has already been stated - has nerfed them so badly that a new genius strategy is required for every situation.
And, of course, the diehard elitists these days (90% of the experienced population) don't accept innovative new ideas unless they see some exceptional video on the net.
Thus the new ideas don't become popular unless they're conceived by a high-end guild, and even then the true genius of them is recognized by few, and used by fewer.

Elementalists will survive the introduction of the Dervish and Paragon, but who will use them if they're not visibly buffed to counter the nerfing that they have been hit with since day 1? Nobody.

I totally agree. I hate to play "according to the book" and have people building my belt, it makes me less than a pawn.

Check PvE in factions for the build: 2 monks 2 tanks 1 MM and 3 more. Not very often i see "GLF nuker" except at Raisu palace because the elemental Celestial is a blast. In fact in several mssions i was "forced" to play healer because i couldnt find a group. No so bad, i love to heal but geez! i am an elementalist im supposed to cast on foes not on allies.

I guess dervish will pwn the game and i cant wait to make mine. Evolution and natural selection is inevitable because it is impossible to balance 8 professions and thousands of skills. I think that elementalists and assassins are at the very tail of the GW hierarchy, at least in PvE, and Nightfall will show it in a clearer fashion, if it has not been translucent enough.

frojack · Aug 22, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

The Elementalist class has gone from "I've had the game for two days and I can handle all four of you myself with this skillbar I threw together" to "Alright... ele... what the hell can I do?"

Those who have the creativity to come up with new strategies for elementalists find more pleasure in them... but ANet - as has already been stated - has nerfed them so badly that a new genius strategy is required for every situation.
And, of course, the diehard elitists these days (90% of the experienced population) don't accept innovative new ideas unless they see some exceptional video on the net.
Thus the new ideas don't become popular unless they're conceived by a high-end guild, and even then the true genius of them is recognized by few, and used by fewer.

Elementalists will survive the introduction of the Dervish and Paragon, but who will use them if they're not visibly buffed to counter the nerfing that they have been hit with since day 1? Nobody.

That is essentially the meat of the predicament. What Anet decide to do now is the real question however.

I mean, sure I can use the elementalist as it is right now. I Have a build I call the 'Monk Hunter' which specialises in knockdown and general softie killing. I just go for softies. Anything with armour forces me to exhaust everything I have. I fact, most softies with some defensive abilities have the same effect. That is the real problem. There seems to be no sense of reward or accomplishment for all this expenditure.
Everything I do as an elementalist requires I drain myself almost completely. The damage should account for this. It doesn't. Also as an elementalist, all my defensive/healing abilities rely on enchantments, which are horribly fragile, unless of course I can happily stand in one spot (wards). Never really an option. So essentially I also have the weakest defense in the game. The quality of that defense should account for this. It doesn't.

It would be really nice to hear what Anet have to say about this themselves. They obviously have an idea about what they are trying to make of the class. It would be nice to hear more than just conjecture and constructive but ultimately speculative ideas for a change. They do (I hope) have the answers after all...

Cynn Evennia · Aug 22, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Before the AoE scattering eles pwnd, but when ANET made the foes flee from DoT the casting and recharge times of our spells were not updated accordingly. I mean, fleeing foes are better for realism but then Meteor and Meteor shower should have faster casts and recharges.

People have posted nice ideas here and in other threads for ele improvement. Let me mention some of them:

*Meteor shower must deal damage and KD the very first meteor that lands
*Eruption blind on each pulse like Dust trap
*Fire storm last 5 secs but deal double damage, and the same for AoE spells that last 10 secs: sincerely, who stays all 10 secs under the rain? only a ranger killing the fire storm caster
*Buff on attunements: less recharge, make a skill to "lock" them and avoid removal, or make them skills or preparations like Ritual lord or Apply poison
*No exhaustion on Mind X

Im afraid, dearest Frojack and all fellow elementalists, that we will be the first profession that will be set aside. Its inevitable: Natural selection. ANET cannot balance things with 8 professions without remaking some of them. Steam machines vs Diesel, its that simple.

Id love ANET if they could accept that Energy storage needs a drastical update and that the elementalist's skills need to be all polished accordingly to the new ES attribute, but im afraid this wont happen: pride and money. But let me tell you this, dear ANET: i love the game and i thank you for it since its the best gaming experience ive had. Accepting that the elementalist needs to be rebuilt will make us all believe that your commitment on game balance is true, and we all will be very proud of you.

Mouse at Large · Aug 22, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I've read a fair bit in this thread and a couple of others. Here's my 2c.

My wish list would be (in no particular order)

Make attunements stances or preparations, in fact anything thats pretty much non-strippable once applied. I've no problem with getting interrupted trying to apply them.

Make e-storage increase elemental damage by 3% per lvl on spells and wanding. No need to increase burning times or it's degen effect. This gives eles a better chance of dealing damage relative to other caster types who go E/X purely to tap into a larger energy pool.

Miscellaneous tweaks to various spells to decrease duration time e.g. MS whilst upping the dps to maintain overall damage per cast.

I think the first two would not take much in the way of coding/update. I'd really like to see at least one of the first two introduced just to see what the wider community thinks and how it would affect the metagame. Imho, these changes would not be overpowerful, but would make eles more viable as damage dealers rather than the support chars they have largely become. For evidence of how far down the pecking order eles have fallen, especially in PvP, just look at most of the top GvG games and see how many eles run fire....

You'll still be squishy, but a slightly more effective squishy