Curse

Trylo · Aug 10, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

@spike
It is quite hard to tell sarcasm on the internet, despite my daily usage of it, my main point was to just get back on topic after all the conflicts.

@whoever said do i play other classes...

I do have a Monk, Warrior, Necromancer, Ritualist... and of course my ele. out of all i enjoy the elementalist most, but am saddened at its recent decline in effectiveness, but has also allowed me to see earth magic as capable and viable in MANY builds, especially sliver armor vs. oni, my party was very suprised when i was soloing them once everyone had died

@Cynn
im confused at what you mean by the effectiveness of the attunements, even though i thought i understood what you meant...

My Take on what you meant...:
Move ALL attunements to energy storage thus making it a benefit for eles and only eles, killin the FC mesmer along the way?

Spike · Aug 10, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I kind of like the Energy back, but if that's done, Ele's should have the same base energy as everyone else. And the Energy back should only to apply to actual energy spent, and it should only apply to Elemental spells (not Mesmer for example!)

Even if you do all of those things it would STILL be possable to never run out of energy if you get back 90% of the energy cast. Glyph of energy 5 to cast. none back as its not tied to any element. Takes 1 second to cast. 1 1/3 energy regenerated. Meteor shower only costs 5 because of the glyph but you get 4 back and since it takes 5 seconds to cast you will have regenerated 7 and 2/3 energy before you have finished casteing it. So you have spent 10 energy and got back 13.

As for cyns attemept once again to show how week eles are, shes wrong AS USUAL. Does the ele who has cast Obsidian Flame only have 10 energy in total and therefore is unable to cast anything else during the 30 seconds the exhaustion is wareing off?. Of coure if you compare the damage of ONE spell vs the damage of FOUR spells. The FOUR spells are going to have more. Unless of course you compareing flare with meteor shower. Any ele who can play thier class properley (unlike cynn) would use gyph of energy to counter the exhaustion. Or use other spells while the exhaustion is wareing off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

For the record, please don't misunderstand that I "hate" eles. I "hate" that Elementalists were advertised as one thing, but in the game, are something else. I have an Ele. I want her to be an awesome, fear inducing spellcaster of doom. But until the do a massive overhaul, she'll be a seond-tier damage dealer. Warriors do more DPS. Rangers have greater spikes. Necros do more damage, and have better energy management. Mesmers are better interupters.

In short, there's nothing the Ele can do, that another core class can't do better (except maybe Spam spells like Blind). And that's just wrong.

Sigh. I'm not sure the topic exists any more but there was a HUGE thread called something like Warriors don't kill things eles do. This was before the aoe nerf so its probley not as accurate now as it was then. As far as I remember it proved all of the things you said ARE WRONG. IE theres nothing an ele can do better than any other class. I sure hope mesmers are better interupters than eles after all thats thier primary function.

Lordhelmos · Aug 10, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Post Deleted, while re-reading I decided was uneeded. Wouldn't want to pour more gasoline on the fires. This thread is already waiting to blow, I don't want to be the one to light to fuse.

Nuff Said (:

Katari · Aug 10, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Anyone who has played a MM, SS nec, or properly build warrior (Yes, eles *will* outdamage your 8-weapon mastery tank.... *gasp!*), along with an ele, should know how right Mordakai is. If you have played those classes, and somehow still think your necro is dealing less damage to endgame mobs, then you need to ask around and learn how to play those classes.

Cebe · Aug 10, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Oh nice...here we go...another "Let's discuss how another profession will become less powerful when something happens in the future..." Who is it who was conned into buying the "Fisher Price Crystal Ball" from that dodgy guy at the market?

I made an elementalist as my first character and she is my most loved. She may well be the first character I take to Elona and I do intend to plough my way through the game with her, enchantment strippers or not! It will be doable and I really don't see the need for people to fall into a never ending pit of dispair about elementalists becomg less powerful...find a way around it....be inventive. LOL - maybe there will actually be a use for Energy Boon!!

Don't Worry - Be happy!!

Symbol · Aug 10, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Even if you do all of those things it would STILL be possable to never run out of energy if you get back 90% of the energy cast. Glyph of energy 5 to cast. none back as its not tied to any element. Takes 1 second to cast. 1 1/3 energy regenerated. Meteor shower only costs 5 because of the glyph but you get 4 back and since it takes 5 seconds to cast you will have regenerated 7 and 2/3 energy before you have finished casteing it. So you have spent 10 energy and got back 13.

BFD. You can get infinite energy _now_ by using dual attunements. As long as you're not stripped you can cast indefinitely. Guess what? That doesn't matter one whit when the elementalist is _also_ limited by recharges and exhaustion (and to a lesser extent cast times).

Quote:

As for cyns attemept once again to show how week eles are, shes wrong AS USUAL. Does the ele who has cast Obsidian Flame only have 10 energy in total and therefore is unable to cast anything else during the 30 seconds the exhaustion is wareing off?. Of coure if you compare the damage of ONE spell vs the damage of FOUR spells. The FOUR spells are going to have more. Unless of course you compareing flare with meteor shower. Any ele who can play thier class properley (unlike cynn) would use gyph of energy to counter the exhaustion. Or use other spells while the exhaustion is wareing off.

It's "wearing" not "waring". And the purpose of that example is that obsidian flame can't dps, which sort of misses the point but still...

Quote:

Sigh. I'm not sure the topic exists any more but there was a HUGE thread called something like Warriors don't kill things eles do. This was before the aoe nerf so its probley not as accurate now as it was then. As far as I remember it proved all of the things you said ARE WRONG. IE theres nothing an ele can do better than any other class. I sure hope mesmers are better interupters than eles after all thats thier primary function.

Lol. I have no argument and persist in wasting everyon'e time, but, uh, there's this thread that I can't link to that proves me right and all you wrong. Good going there, that's the most persuasive thing I've heard today.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 10, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

@Cynn
im confused at what you mean by the effectiveness of the attunements, even though i thought i understood what you meant...

My Take on what you meant...:
Move ALL attunements to energy storage thus making it a benefit for eles and only eles, killin the FC mesmer along the way?

Well, dear Trylo, ANET has already hit hard FC eles making the lasting time of the elite Elemental attunement depend on your ranks on Energy Storage: 30 secs with zero, 52 secs with 13, and with a recharge of 45 secs.

Personally if a necessary buff on eles will kill a non primary ele like the FC ele (which by the way before the change on Ele attunement was better than a primary ele) i wont complain at all, even if i hae a mesmer and she is a FC air spiker, in the same way that should Contemplation of Purity read "50% failure if Divine favor is 4 or less" in order to prevent Dervishes from using it my monk would not care.

Unfortunately i doubt that we will be heard by ANET so all discussion risks to be futile. Nevertheless as a mental exercise i will post my Attunements idea:

Air/Fire/Earth/Water Attunements now depend on the element exclusively, give 30% of energy cost back without taking into account glyphs. Their recharge time is 45 secs and with 6 attributes on the element they last 45 secs.

The elite Elemental attunement gives 50% of energy cost back without taking into account glyphs. I repeat its duration depents on Energy storage: lasts 30 secs with zero atts, 45 secs with 9 atts, and has a recharge of 45 secs.

Using twin or dual attunements on we can cast continuously due to the 83% back + 4 pips of energy. But those attunements are very fragile: first, their recharge times make it really painful for an elementalist if they are removed; second, we have no skill that prevents you from being stripped (some of us have asked to have a "lock" for our enchantments).

I propose to make this modifications:

Reduce the casting times of all attunements to 15 secs. In that way we can recast them when they got stripped/ removed/ drained/ rended/ shattered/ expunged.

Make all percentages depend on Energy storage attributes, starting from 33% and up to 90% and attunements non-stackable. This would make us have the twin attunements rebate without the use of a elite. I am aware that this would kill a FC ele but if a primary elementalist is weaker than a FC elementalist using Air/Earth/Fire/Water magic then the elementalist profession is rubbish. ANET knew it and thats why they made the last mod on Ele attunement.

This is my proposal:

X ATTUNEMENT:
Energy Cost: 10
Casting Time: 2.00
Recharge Time: 15.00
Description: For 30..45..60 seconds, you are attuned to X. You gain 30...75...90% of the Energy cost of the skill whenever you use X Magic.

ELEMENTAL ATTUNEMENT:
Energy Cost: 10
Casting Time: 2.00
Recharge Time: 15.00
Description: For 30..45..60 seconds, you are attuned to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. You gain 30...75...90% of the Energy cost of the skill each time you use magic associated with any of these elements.

Make a skill to avoid enchant removal on eles. I have already proposed to modify the current uninteresting Mirror of ice in order to make it prevent a skill to be used on you, but maybe a non elite stance of the kind of Hex breaker would be better:

AURA OF THE ENCHANTER (stance)
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.00
Recharge Time: 15.00
Description: For 15..63..79 seconds the next time you are the target of a skill that removes an enchantment, that skills fails and Aura of the Enchanter ends.

Silver_Fang · Aug 10, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

AURA OF THE ENCHANTER (stance)
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.00
Recharge Time: 15.00
Description: For 15..63..79 seconds the next time you are the target of a skill that removes an enchantment, that skills fails and Aura of the Enchanter ends.

Maybe change it to -10...5 energy or this stance ends. Casting any enchantment will also end the stance.

Ira Blinks · Aug 10, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Aura of Restoration has 5 seconds recharge and recharge time is what counts when amost every enemy around has enchant removal. But even with it I been hit by 2-3 enchant removals from NPC enemies before. The only thing that I found works reasonably well is precasting attunement with GoR and then just putting it back when stripped.
Also I would love to see obsidian flesh making enemy spells fail (like spellbreaker does) instead of preventing casting.

Katari · Aug 10, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

The new classes might only make eles usless because they do exactly what the eles were susposed to do in the first place, that is, kill stuff. The introduction of yet more enchant removals means nothing at all. There are few areas in PvE where people avoid enchantments altogether because of enchant removal, and in PvP, teams have a limited number of skills lots. Adding more types of enchant removal dosn't mean they're going to devote more slots for that use.

As far as dealing damage, all ele skills, with a few exceptions (such as fireball) are not worth the investment of either time, energy, or they have needlessly long recharges. Sure, some singular spells deal plenty of damage, but they have very poor DPS once you consider that spells like Rodgorts Invoction take a full three seconds to cast.

If eles did such great damage, have 5-man farming groups used SS necs and MMs? Why do UW duos use SS necs? Why do PvP teams use warriors, sins, and sometimes thumpers for DPS pressure/spike? Why not eles?

Because eles aren't as good as any of those classes at deal damage. Yes, I do think the general public can be quite brutaly stupid, and is often disturbingly clueless (like the mass love for sundering) but if eles really were as powerfull as some people in this thread claim they are, if some sort of player skill could somehow make them deal more damage, we'd have seen it.

Or, if you actually played the classes in question, you'd see it for yourself.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 11, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

If eles did such great damage, have 5-man farming groups used SS necs and MMs? Why do UW duos use SS necs? Why do PvP teams use warriors, sins, and sometimes thumpers for DPS pressure/spike? Why not eles?

Or, if you actually played the classes in question, you'd see it for yourself.

I totally agree, my necro is more fearful, deadly and lethal using any line: blood, curses or death... unfortunately...

Spike · Aug 11, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Apart form the 5 man SF groups I've played in, and even some of them had an ele in. EVERY single other group I have EVER been in has had AT LEAST one ele. IF there where as useless as you say they are why do so many people play them?

The only people being brutaly stupid around here are those people who insist that eles are weak and useless.

BTW obsidian flame CAN dps. You can cast it 6 times in 31 seconds for a total of 708 damage and NO exhaustion. I will leave you to work out how you can do this. Giveing you a DPS of 23.84. Vamp gaze can be cast 6 times in 31 seconds doing 378 damage give you 12.6 DPS. So it seems an ele CAN out dps a necro. And by 1.89 to 1 too.

This is my last post on this topic as has become clear its poinltess trying to make you people see sense. So have fun in your delusional world where eles are so weak and useless.

Ira Blinks · Aug 11, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Apart form the 5 man SF groups I've played in, and even some of them had an ele in. EVERY single other group I have EVER been in has had AT LEAST one ele. IF there where as useless as you say they are why do so many people play them?

I can tell you why I play ele... because it was my first char and I have put lots of time and effort into here.

Quote:

The only people being brutaly stupid around here are those people who insist that eles are weak and useless.

oh wow, what a clever retort. I think it is the other way around, wanna have a good old school fist fight about it?

Quote:

BTW obsidian flame CAN dps. You can cast it 6 times in 31 seconds for a total of 708 damage and NO exhaustion. I will leave you to work out how you can do this. Giveing you a DPS of 23.84. Vamp gaze can be cast 6 times in 31 seconds doing 378 damage give you 12.6 DPS. So it seems an ele CAN out dps a necro. And by 1.89 to 1 too.

thats an interesting way to count...

The only thing that negates exhaustion as far as i know is Glyph of Energy, which is elite (not required for vamp gaze casting) and takes 15 seconds to recharge. So first there is no way you can cast 6 obsidian flames in thirty seconds and get no exhaustion.

Second, there is no way you can cast 6 obsidian flames in 31 seconds at all.
Cast time = 2 seconds.
Recharge = 5 seconds.
(2 + 5) * 6 - 5(throw away recharge before first cast) = 37 seconds
And that is without glyph, which will add 2 more seconds to this.

Quote:

This is my last post on this topic as has become clear its poinltess trying to make you people see sense. So have fun in your delusional world where eles are so weak and useless.

hmmm really? According to above it is you who live in delusional world since you clearly have no clue what you talking about. Your arguments made up on the fly, so I take it as pathetic attempt in flamebating.

Ensign · Aug 11, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Eles are everywhere because people want to play 'nukers'. Effectiveness does not translate into popularity in PvE - just look at all the assassins running around. They're like cockroaches.

Groups want 'nukers' more often than not because 1) they're used to the tank/heal/nuke model from every other game and keep trying to reproduce it here, and 2) in the scrub metagame, nukers are actually ok. It takes a player who knows what he's doing to rock with a warrior - max weapon attribute, a customized weapon (*gasps*), attack skills, good target selection. Most warriors are incapable of doing this. In fact it is hard to get warriors to go in first to take aggro often enough. Ditto with rangers - they can deal a ton of damage if built for it, but people don't know how to build for it.

To that extent, fire is fairly idiot proofed. Scrubs know they're trying to deal damage and get that 16 fire, and they're going to hit people with 119 fireballs like the good players. They might not hit as many targets, and they *will* run out of energy fast because they sure as hell aren't running emanagement. But they at least deal some damage, usually in an AoE. That's more than you can expect from people in general.

You really have to hand someone a cookie-cutter build, ala B/P, to get a physical to do any damage. It's unfortunate but it's just how these things work.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Aug 11, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

To that extent, fire is fairly idiot proofed. Scrubs know they're trying to deal damage and get that 16 fire, and they're going to hit people with 119 fireballs like the good players. They might not hit as many targets, and they *will* run out of energy fast because they sure as hell aren't running emanagement. But they at least deal some damage, usually in an AoE. That's more than you can expect from people in general.

You really have to hand someone a cookie-cutter build, ala B/P, to get a physical to do any damage. It's unfortunate but it's just how these things work.

This is precicely why the game should be balanced for what is considered optimal, not the lowest common denominator. Its probably why i get kinda annoyed when i see so many skills that seem like they would be interesting, but turn out to be utter garbage in practice.

Trylo · Aug 12, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

1) popularity =/= good, as ensign said, look at all the cockroaches running around...

2) can we stop saying how elementalists cannot do damage and THINK about more ways to help them, so far Cynn and myself have given ACTUAL suggestions about the elementalist primary attribute and attunements, stop flaming everyone and THINK.

3) i agree with ensign that a warrior (eviscerate is deadly...) and ranger (at least 1/2 caster health in a hit) can do huge amounts of damage with specialized builds, elementalists can prevent huge amount of damage with water and earth and you do need to be very accustomed to your skills are fast thinking, which again is not what anet had... intended to do, but ended up with. fix the brochure for nightfall at least.

4) stop saying how necros's can out-dps eles, we know it already, anyone who says otherwords shall need to learn math...and im still not quite sure where spike is getting his times...

4 1/2) what is up with shatterstone, an incendiary bonds can easily outdamage it... no slow down time or anything? add at least 50% slow when hexed...

scooba_steve · Aug 12, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Why don't u just cover you enchant...

wren e · Aug 12, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

There are three really big problems with Ele's: cost, casting time, and recharge on many skills. The Ele just doesn't get their money's worth from the energy and effects for many of the skills in the profession. If you disagree with this, I would suggest trying out some of the other professions and you will see for yourself and understand what everyone is saying.

inscribed · Aug 12, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wren e

There are three really big problems with Ele's: cost, casting time, and recharge on many skills. The Ele just doesn't get their money's worth from the energy and effects for many of the skills in the profession. If you disagree with this, I would suggest trying out some of the other professions and you will see for yourself and understand what everyone is saying.

Its a little more complex than just changing the numbers on a few spells. Warriors are able to deal out a lot of damage without using any skills, more than an elementalist spamming spells. Any skills a warrior decides to use is 'extra', which is why the warrior is so flexible. He can drop whatever he wants on his skill bar and still be effective offensively. If an elementalist wants to be able to compare to a warrior as an offensive powerhouse, they need to either be able to deal damage between spells (like a warrior can deal damage between skill uses), or the elementalist needs to be able to dish out enough damage to make up for the times when they aren't casting (although this would lead more to improving elementalist spiking than to increasing their ability to apply pressure). Making elementalist spells balanced with warrior attacks, as it is now, isn't enough. Elementalist spells need to be much stronger than a warriors attacks.

Back in beta, elementalists got toned down a lot, but honestly, if elementalists were restored to their level of power during beta, I wouldn't consider it overpowered. The biggest problem back in beta wasn't the power level of elementalists, but that the players hadn't developed enough to know how to counter them. With the metagame as developed as it is now, the old elementalists would fit in fine, imo.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 12, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by inscribed

Back in beta, elementalists got toned down a lot, but honestly, if elementalists were restored to their level of power during beta, I wouldn't consider it overpowered. The biggest problem back in beta wasn't the power level of elementalists, but that the players hadn't developed enough to know how to counter them. With the metagame as developed as it is now, the old elementalists would fit in fine, imo.

Is just like the dervishes now. Yes they are overpowered but if you dont let them use CoP everything would be balanced.

*sigh* im afraid ANET will nerf them to absurd levels and both eles and dervishes will long for the good times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooba_steve

Why don't u just cover you enchant...

Its not that simple. Any anti enchant foe carries always more than one skill to do so and half the options she has remove more than one enchant.