Curse

Kali Magdalene · Oct 03, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

The article at least to me was more on the uses of the Necromancer skills used in PvP GvG and PvE. The class, apart from Soul Reaping, is the sum of the skills used with that class.

There's also the litany of "Necromancers enjoyed a brief time in GvG with this build, but it was nerfed." Without getting into whether the skills were overpowered as they were, it seems like necros get balanced out of GvG over and over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

People farmed alot. Many mobs continue to die. Xp totals rise.

There's no metagame to talk about in PvE...

He totally talked about the PVE metagame

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Sunstrom

Necromancers are one of the most popular PvE classes in Guild Wars, and a minion master is a given part of any serious PvE group.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.

B Ephekt · Oct 03, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

It is 'State-of-the-game' or 'State-of-PvP'?
Because all I see is PvP and GvG talking.

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

PvE has no meta-game...

Shyft the Pyro · Oct 03, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

PvE has no meta-game...

Really?

I remember a time before the AoE nerf when Necromancers got about as many party invites as Mesmers. Until Elementalist AoE spells started scattering enemies, few people even heard of a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer, much less a Minion Master one. The "metagame" was to have a tank and as many echo nukers as party size allowed. The Scribe is a perfect place to illuminate underused but effective PvE builds which linger on the fringes of the "PvE metagame." Instead, we've had "interesting" rather than "effective" builds, like the "chaser" Warrior with Ride the Lightning.

Granted, come Nightfall, we might never see other players again due to our Heroes and the PvE metagame will turn into "how to setup your Hero ftw."

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

let it go. If you don't like that he happened to mention a popular build that happens to use mostly necromancy skills, simply because the primary is a ranger, don't read any more state of the game articles.

I started the thread with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Overall a very nice summary of why Necromancers don't see GvG play as often as other classes, but this paragraph made me pause

I think the article is very good, except for the single paragraph. It feels out of place to me, and I wanted to start a discussion on it. Clearly, you feel it is as valid a part of the article as any other. We may disagree, but that is no basis for personal attacks or insults.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

he never implied that he would solely talk about primary necromancers.

Are we reading the same article? From the very top:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Sunstrom

Necromancers are one of the most popular PvE classes in Guild Wars, and a minion master is a given part of any serious PvE group. Yet, up until this point, Necromancer builds have been the least common in top level GvG play by a longshot. So why is it that the Necromancer has been the least popular class in PvP to this point? In this article I'll explain my theory, and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the class.

If that's not an essay on primary Necromancers, I don't know what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

What a ridiculous thread.

And yet you're contributing.

B Ephekt · Oct 03, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Really?

I remember a time before the AoE nerf when Necromancers got about as many party invites as Mesmers. Until Elementalist AoE spells started scattering enemies, few people even heard of a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer, much less a Minion Master one. The "metagame" was to have a tank and as many echo nukers as party size allowed. The Scribe is a perfect place to illuminate underused but effective PvE builds which linger on the fringes of the "PvE metagame." Instead, we've had "interesting" rather than "effective" builds, like the "chaser" Warrior with Ride the Lightning.

Granted, come Nightfall, we might never see other players again due to our Heroes and the PvE metagame will turn into "how to setup your Hero ftw."

That's nice - I remember it as well - but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The pvp metagame is an ever evolving change in how teams setup their offenses and defenses, and how they interact to get kills. Pve does not have this, since the monster AI is unchanging and boringly predictable. You can literaly bring any 8 skills into a pve mission or quest and still complete it with ease. Yes, pve has changed since release, but what hasn't? Yes, people figure out new farming techniques, but that hardly qualifies as a metagame.

Spader · Oct 03, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

i'm not to sure about signet of lost souls.

by my guess
guildwiki has it listed as works on target less then %50 hp you steal 10-82 hp and 1-7 energy great for a finisher if a spike goes wrong. But how many guilds will go feast then SoS spike, wait desicrate, SoS

its going to be fuunn in the first weeks of nightfall.

B Ephekt · Oct 03, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spader

i'm not to sure about signet of lost souls.

by my guess
guildwiki has it listed as works on target less then %50 hp you steal 10-82 hp and 1-7 energy great for a finisher if a spike goes wrong. But how many guilds will go feast then SoS spike, wait desicrate, SoS

its going to be fuunn in the first weeks of nightfall.

The skill doesn't seem to be life stealing; it says "you gain," not steal, x amount of health and energy." It's not useful as a spike follow up... and who does FoC spike anymore anyway?

Shyft the Pyro · Oct 03, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

That's nice - I remember it as well - but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The pvp metagame is an ever evolving change in how teams setup their offenses and defenses, and how they interact to get kills. Pve does not have this, since the monster AI is unchanging and boringly predictable. You can literaly bring any 8 skills into a pve mission or quest and still complete it with ease. Yes, pve has changed since release, but what hasn't? Yes, people figure out new farming techniques, but that hardly qualifies as a metagame.

My point is that the "PvE metagame" does exist and does change - sometimes more, sometimes less - when the game itself changes. Considering two new classes are about to change the game yet again, it would be interesting to see how a Paragon or Dervish build could work with a party rather than solo farm something. Even in PvP, unless you're talking about 1v1 battles, each character is designed to hold up a particular end of the team. I really don't understand how "advertising" a viable if "generic" team build for either Paragon or Dervish in The Scribe could be detrimental, or even worse than the content we see now.

Kali Magdalene · Oct 03, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

There is most certainly a PVE metagame, which is why mesmers and assassins get neglected, people look for MM, SS, Spirit Lords, team builds for FoW/UW/ToPK/Urgoz' Warren/The Deep. When people complain about cookie cutter builds, they're really complaining about the PVE metagame.

I'd also dispute the idea that you can just put any eight skills on your bar and farm or PVE successfully. While there may be greater tolerance and flexibility for builds in PVE than in PVP, this does not mean that mediocre builds will thrive or even accomplish anything useful. Of course, that statement is just the normal "PVE is mindless" noise from PVP players, and should really be disregarded.