Curse

Navaros · Sep 29, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

The solution is not to nerf Heros but rather it is to buff normal characters so that they can also use any skill that is unlocked on their account. This has been suggested a long time ago on the Suggestions board and it's a great idea, now moreso than ever. If you have unlocked a skill on your account you should be able to use that skill on any character, period.

SilentAssassin · Sep 29, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

all you are saying is only for the island, from the moment you get to the "real" story and are lvl 20 (wich is hopefully 80% of the game) you will have your own builds and are as powerfull as your hero.

lyra_song · Sep 29, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I think the heroes are excellent, and only as good as their controller:

ie: you.

if you build them right, rune them right, flag them right, they are AWESOME.

If you dont know jack about directing a party like a good tactician, they fight like regular henchmen and youll die

in the end its more options to the player, but id still rather play with real people cause heroes dont have burping contests on vent XD

Henchman · Sep 29, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

The heroes' skills are a tad extreme. I found it quite ridiculous that Koss and the monk Heroes can use Hundred Blades and WOH when you first aquire them, being only level 2-5. On the other hand, forcing a hero to unlock every skill in the game for his use is quite frustrating. Therefore I propose 2 solutions:

1. Heroes can use any non-elite skill you have unlocked in your account. As for the elite skills, your main character has to capture them, and only then they become unlocked for all of his heroes.

2. Heroes can use any non-elite skill you have unlocked in your account. As for the elite skills,every hero is on his own, and must capture them individually.

SnipiousMax · Sep 29, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I agree with everything Frog said, but I REALLY don't want to see the Hero end of things tweaked, I like the skill distribution as it was with them... It would be INCREDIBLY frustrating to have to unlock all the skills for them. So I second Frog's suggestions. I really like the idea of being able to unlock Elites at any skill trader. It's too frustrating to have to want on a elite you know is in a remote location at the end of the game your second time through the game with a new character. The Start of the game will not change at all, it will not give you any advantage that experience wouldn't give you to begin with, so I don't see a problem in offering all the skills you've unlocked (elite or not) at any skill trainer (ESPECIALLY the on in the Guild Hall).

Gli · Sep 29, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

You can do the same with standard henchmen as soon as you have a group of 8. For the records, you can complete pretty much all missions and quests with an empty skill bar or an echo mender. Making them weaker won't make the game more enjoyable, especially for those who have countless of hours behind them.

Been there, done that, but with heroes and flags, there's a huge difference. Playing with 7 henchies and no flags (Prophecies and Factions) still takes player involvement. In the preview, I could kill enemies at the edge of my radar, without having line of sight, or ever coming within twice the aggro range. I could kill them from so far away, I didn't even gain XP for the kills.

If there are repeatable quests, I could make a Legendary Survivor without ever aggroing an enemy except for the early game while I work toward the point where I have 3 heroes and parties of eight. Something about that doesn't seem quite right.

ChaoticCoyote · Sep 29, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin1607

Wait, so after months of complaining that henchies were cannon fodder and that no high level missions could be completed with them, now suddenly they're OVER powered?

Now that's what I call ironic.

What I wanted was smarter henchmen, and what we got were three extra "characters" who may, in the beginning, be *better* than out own "characters".

I'm nto a group, I'm my character. Singular. One person, the hero saving the world.

Except now it's a committee. And the other members of the committee have more skills tha I do, including end-game, hard-to-cap elites from other chapters! That certainly devalues my character, who is stuck with a few paltry starter skills.

The Factions storyline did the same thign -- it devalued my character to being a lackey for Mhenlo and Togo. The NPCs were the heroes, I was just a human-controlled henchman. Which is one of the major reasons I dislike Factions.

I expect the Heroes to be fun, but the game won;t be about *my* hero, it will be about my *group*. And I'm willing to bet that these henchmen will drive the story, leaving my character -- once again -- to be nothign more than a glorified henchman.

Gli · Sep 29, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

And I'm willing to bet that these henchmen will drive the story, leaving my character -- once again -- to be nothign more than a glorified henchman.

I won't bet against you. In the preview, you even HAD to take a certain hero along to be able to play a certain mission at all. Didn't like that one bit.

akh · Sep 30, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

I think you have overlooked my previous post. It's not because of heroes but because of builds efficiency. *Real* MM (or something else) would be even better than hero. Their skill management (account unlocks) is good as it is.
If you have all unlocks it's because you have played game long time and you are experienced/veteran player (or you have bought unlock pack

).
Ability to give hero every available skill including elites is reward for the time you have wasted unlocking this. New player who just started the game will not have opportunity to use heroes in their full power.
Capping every elite for all of my future heroes is definitely not what I'm going to do when NF's released.

Ensign · Sep 30, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

The suggestions I would make:

Heroes cannot use secondary professions until you complete the Elonian equivilent of Ascension.

Heroes cannot equip an elite skill until it has reached level 20.

Sure, they're still going to have a ton of flexibility because they're based on unlocks. But at least that way they won't be given abilities above and beyond what their controlling player has access to.

Peace,
-CxE

FrogDevourer · Sep 30, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Again my concern with heroes is not about their intrinsic strength. They're as strong as your unlock status and a group of heroes is as coherent as your ability to make/reproduce build groups. Players who have unlocked hundreds of skills through PvE or PvP have access to more powerful heroes. Such players expect to breeze through low levels areas such as the newbie island. In short, if your heroes are very powerful, it's likely that you'd steamroll monsters with henchmen anyway.

The problem is that I can build a well-designed group of heroes with many synergies (so far so good), but that my own character doesn't blend in this group (problem is here). I don't mind heroes having access to the top quality stuff (especially at higher levels) if it spares me dozens of hours in old campaigns. My problem is that I'd like to see the same elites on my character first, and then on my heroes.

I really, really like the flexibility of the heroes. They basically highlight the best features of the core of this game: skill selection, builds, combos, synergies... Thus it would be a big mistake to limit them, or to alter the current hero system.

Unfortunately, so far PvE players are still forced to replay through each and every campaign with each and every character to access elites they've already unlocked or captured many times already. That's most frustrating because many options are impossible to consider on your own character but you can use them on your lackeys.

I understand that human characters still need to grind for gold and skill points (economy gold sink, learning curve...), but I'm disappointed to be forced to redo many many missions and quests, just for an elite that is already on 3 old characters. When GW had only one or two chapters, this policy was understandable from ANet's point of view. But after chapter 3 or 4, even casual players will have 4/6 pve toons, and replaying through all campaigns for a couple of elites is not really thrilling.

Even if you limit heroes at lower levels (and it looks like a boring restriction for most veterans), they'll still be much more flexible and more powerful than the player's own character once you reach higher levels (no skill point limit, access to everything).

It's probably normal for a player who doesn't have hundreds of hours behind him, but I'm somewhat sad to see the best feature of the game (builds, combos, synergies) limited to hero bots in PvE.

Historically, only PvP character had access to a full flexibility (for obvious balance reasons). Heroes provide much more options for those who enjoy PvE (especially in a casual way, for questing or for the storyline) and in my book this is a good thing. I'm just a little disappointed because with Nightfall, I know I'll have more fun (at least in pve) with my three bots, than with my own character.

SilentAssassin · Sep 30, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

I think you have overlooked my previous post. It's not because of heroes but because of builds efficiency. *Real* MM (or something else) would be even better than hero. Their skill management (account unlocks) is good as it is.
If you have all unlocks it's because you have played game long time and you are experienced/veteran player (or you have bought unlock pack

).
Ability to give hero every available skill including elites is reward for the time you have wasted unlocking this. New player who just started the game will not have opportunity to use heroes in their full power.
Capping every elite for all of my future heroes is definitely not what I'm going to do when NF's released.

/agree

The hero system was good as it was, geez ... do you rly think I want to cap ALL elites on each character just so that I can equip my heroes with those elites???

NO WAY, I have worked sometime for my fully unlocked account and now you are comming to tell me you want to buy all skills over again (or elites) just so my heroes can equip them...

The heroes are only slightly stronger because YOU have played the game MANY times and unlocked many skills.

There is only 1 solution where i can live with and thats that heroes only get elite skills when they are of the island or something, but even that is... meh

And if your heroes were better then you, then you have to think maybe about a new play style.

My heroes still get killed by mobs where we wouldn't have died if they were real ppl...

Anet don't listen to these ppl... I dont want to start unlocking all elites on every character of mine just so that my heroes can use it...

The Real Roy Keane · Sep 30, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

You can be my Hero baby; You can kiss away the pain..

Jimmy McDoodle · Sep 30, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

How about just having all core skills unlocked on any new character, PvP, PvE (maybe after a certain point, the Pre-Searing equivelants), everyone. There is still reason to play the campaign for their specific skills but you're on fairly even fields with a hero.
Further thinking: maybe just all core skills (including elites) at skill traders?

kazjun · Oct 02, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

I like the system as is. You shouldn't have to go re-unlock anything. You spent time and plat or faction to cap elites and normal skills, you shouldn't have to go do it over again for each hero. As plenty have posted, they are only as strong as the player. And stupider in most cases.

As for being stronger than the player, the only difference is the elite. It costs nothing on a new char to buy your 6 favourite skills (minus elite and res sig which you should get). If you can't get a good build from that then maybe you should go unlock more stuff rather than worrying about your heroes.

And don't forget this is practically presear. You can't judge something just by how fast they kill training dummys. Take your lvl 20 to shing jea, or ascalon, they'll kill so fast you won't even notice hostiles.

I wouldn't worry about not partying with newbies either. At first I'll just be worried about finishing the campaign, but once I've finished once, I'll party with anyone. Most people I know are the same. The only times I've seen newbies turned down is if we're farming UW or FoW.

RudyNam · Oct 02, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

The thing you guys have to realize, is that to a noob, the heroes aren't overpowered, since the noob doesn't have very many skills unlocked at all. They are strong at low levels, because veterans don't want to have to play through the whole game to get to a certain point.

Angel Netherborn · Oct 02, 2006, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Yep. To a new player, having so many options isn't going to mean anything. It'll be too overwhelming for them to start customising the heroes; most likely they just take them as it is. Just because veteran players will have it really easy by micromanaging all their heroes doesn't mean the hero system needs to be modified.

As was mentioned, you can always choose not to micromanage them so much, not to give them powerful builds, or even not to bring them at all. I'm all for realism and a progressive storyline so I'll keep the power level of my heroes down myself. But we shouldn't limit the options for those who don't like it.

scrinner · Oct 02, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

But Do the heroes get the extra 30 attributes we get? In the WPE Koss didnt get the 15 attributes from the only 15 att quest i did. Thats a MAJOR set back

FrogDevourer · Oct 02, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by RudyNam

The thing you guys have to realize, is that to a noob, the heroes aren't overpowered, since the noob doesn't have very many skills unlocked at all. They are strong at low levels, because veterans don't want to have to play through the whole game to get to a certain point.

Wrong. A smart newcomer can browse fan forums and look for the best builds, and unlock the elite they need with a few RA games. In my book, it's great option because it rewards the smart newcomer as opposed to the noob who doesn't want to learn.

As for the average casual player (playing since GW:F or GW:P), he has 2/3 pve characters already and he has unlocked enough skills to reproduce the most popular/efficient hero builds from fan forums. And if he doesn't, he can take his GW:P or GW:F characters and go unlock what he needs, or he can play a handful of RA games to unlock the elite with Balthazar factions.

So far, newcomers could slip in a good group as the 7th or 8th player. Even if their build were subpar or "not-so-exciting", they had a chance to group with experienced players who would help them beat a tough mission.

Unfortunately, with Nightfall, 2 human players can form a full group with Heroes. So it only takes two veterans to make a very powerful and coherent group. Two weeks after release, the best hero builds will be posted everywhere and a lot of players will mimic them. So the newcomer won't be invited anymore because he just cannot match a well-designed hero. Again, the problem is not the heroes' strength, it's the unability for a human player to blend in a coherent assortment of Heroes (whatever the intrinsic power level).

Let's take a simple example: the old THK (not the nerfed version we have nowadays). This mission used to be so hard that players were trying again and again. Sooner or later, even newcomers had a chance to be invited in a good guild group, or in a group of veterans. They had a chance to play with skilled human players. In Nightfall, most if not all guild/good groups will likely ignore newbies and they will take heroes instead. The AI might be stupid, but with a good build 'copied from fan-site X', he'll do his job better.

Let's take another example: the minion master and the echo/gor/ap nuker are very popular builds in PvE. Playing both builds is so simple that even a monkey could be good at it. So in the first 2 chapters, you could safely invite any unskilled player as long as they were using these templates. Unfortunately with GW:N the same role can be given to heroes (I did that with both builds and it worked like a charm). These templates were the perfect tutorial builds for newbies to learn and to beat tough spots. With GW:N, heroes will be selected over humans thanks to their flexible access to equipment and key-skills and elites, so in the same situation newcomers will have no other option than to play with other newbies.

That's why I'd like to give -at the very least- a couple of flexibility options for newcomers who are smart enough to read fan forums and to reproduce the best standard builds. If they're able to use the same skills as my heroes, and to blend in a coherent hero group, then I'll give them a chance. Otherwise it's unlikely I'll jeopardize a mission (and my time) when I can trust the synergy and consistency of my heroes.

And again, my concern is not about heroes being too powerful, you can build powerful heroes with cheap tricks and a handful of unlocks. You can limit heroes if you want but the problem will be the same. If the hero system is changed to make them less flexible, I'll be frustrated and bored but I'll still exploit the system. My heroes will still use the best skills/weapons available, and they'll sill be better than the average pick-up player.

The WPE hero system gave pve players the ability to make optimized group builds, which used to be something reserved to PvP characters. It highlights the best features of the game: choosing not only the best skills, but skills that work together coherently. The WPE version of the hero system is unarguably the best new feature in GW:N and I sincerely hope it won't be strongly affected.

Yet increasing the pve characters' flexiblity gives a small chance to newbies, and it allows casual players to benefit from past characters and unlocks (and not just through their heroes), and it makes the game more enjoyable for veterans who will beat the third chapter easily anyway. As for hardcore players, they already have a lot of pve carrots to grind.

So far unlocking elites was useless save for the cute hunter title. Make unlocked elites buyable from trainers and players will have an incentive to replay old characters to unlock more elites, and humans will have more options to effectively replace a hero.

Thallandor · Oct 02, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Personally i like the heros the way they are now as for the suggestion of making skills you unlocked avaible to all your PvE characters account wide warrens a greater indepth discussion.

Soon having 9 character slots to play with in NF, assumming theres some form of skills unlocking for each of the 10 Heros (cant remember exact Hero no.) means 9 PvE characters X 10 heros to unlock skill for = ARE U OUT OF YOUR MIND!

Please take this into account and consideration before changing anything.....

Edit for spelling.