Curse

Paperfly · Oct 15, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

I feel that if I'm Monking in PvE and my entire team manages to get themselves killed, I'm better off finding a new group than trying to be a ninja with Rebirth.

Then you probably shouldn't be playing in PuGs (OK, you probably aren't)... Inasmuch as you're being time inefficient with that attitude. Picking up a goup and bodily carrying them through a mission generally takes a lot less time than assembling a new PuG would.

(admittedly, it doesn't help that my timezone allows me online only at off-peak hours for both European and American servers)

...On a slightly different topic, people seem to be ignoring the importance of a set number of hard resses in groups, simply to cover incidental deaths without exhausting the team's signet supply. And in a PuG, the only person guaranteed to have access to one is the monk. Obviously, that doesn't require Rebirth over any other hard res, though.

(LOF)CozmicD · Oct 15, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

This thread should be broken down into a few different topics:

1)Who brings Res in Pve
A)in PUGs
B)in guild/organized groups

2)Who brings res in PvP
A)GvG
B)PUG

After scamming thru most of this inSANEly long thread, I have come to some conclusions.

1)Who brings Res in PvE?...Everyone
A)in PUGs...Aboso friggin loootely everyone
B)in guild/organized groups...you can plan before you start who is going to do what

2)Who brings res in PvP
A)GvG..you should have already figured this out...what works for your Guild build works.
B)PUG...abso friggin loootely everyone

There is not a solo build that works 100% of the time given the human factors in this game.

If there was, we would all be soloing ThK.

Ensign · Oct 15, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Picking up a goup and bodily carrying them through a mission generally takes a lot less time than assembling a new PuG would.

I'm playing a Monk. Do you actually think I'm going through the trouble of *assembling* a random group? If I want a true, random pickup, I'm joining a group that's almost full and ready to go.

Teams that manage to wipe themselves thoroughly only very rarely have the ability to clutch up and actually finish a mission. More often, they continue the stupid behavior that wiped them in the first place, only this time with DP.

That said, sometimes I'll bring Rebirth after I'm done capping everything, as I'm used to functioning on six skills in PvE and that slot really isn't all that valuable. The number of times that it's proven valuable is rather low, however - more often than not, when a group does wipe thoroughly, there's no real way to get them back up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

...On a slightly different topic, people seem to be ignoring the importance of a set number of hard resses in groups, simply to cover incidental deaths without exhausting the team's signet supply. And in a PuG, the only person guaranteed to have access to one is the monk. Obviously, that doesn't require Rebirth over any other hard res, though.

Yeah but there's really no reason to run any hard res other than Rebirth on a Monk. I sure as hell am not about to stop casting mid-battle to res some dead guy - the fact that he died almost always means that my energy is bad, or he did something stupid. Out of combat, Rebirth is just the best res, so if you're going to bring one it might as well be that one.

But, as I said, if you're the Monk and your team has wiped so thoroughly that you're the only way that the group can get going again, the group you're in is probably doomed.

Peace,
-CxE

Jessyi · Oct 15, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Yay, Ensign agrees with me. Eat it everyone who didn't.

-Jessyi

Ensign · Oct 15, 2006, 12:00 PM // 12:00

...

Are you seriously saying that in situations where people are dying, you're perfectly content to stop healing for almost 9 seconds (and possibly more to run into position) for a combat reschant? Fast cast gear? What do you do if you don't get the fast cast, burn the energy and keep restarting until you get it?

My view is that any Monk who's plan is to stop healing when someone dies to hardcast an 8 second res is getting cut for a henchman at the first opportunity. Please describe the situation where people are dying, but it's ok to stop and res for 8 seconds. I have never encountered it.

You know, I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you, since you didn't even bother to read the paragraph you quoted.

Peace,
-CxE

Paperfly · Oct 16, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

I'm playing a Monk. Do you actually think I'm going through the trouble of *assembling* a random group? If I want a true, random pickup, I'm joining a group that's almost full and ready to go.

...Heh, fair enough. I'll admit that I've recently taken to ignoring requests from groups at fewer than five people, depending on what kind of mood I'm in.

Quote:

Teams that manage to wipe themselves thoroughly only very rarely have the ability to clutch up and actually finish a mission. More often, they continue the stupid behavior that wiped them in the first place, only this time with DP.

I think this is where we're differing... Not on any theoretical grounds, just in what we've observed. Personally, I've seen enough near wipes (and their cousins the half-wipe + retreats) where people've been shaken out of their complacency and played better afterwards that I'm willing to keep putting the effort into those groups. Occasionally the team is actually more enjoyable (defined as a point halfway between its members' collective competence and their agreeability as individuals) after a couple of /ragequits, and it's led to some fun experiences - finishing Tombs with our last three players, for instance.

Quote:

Yay, Ensign agrees with me. Eat it everyone who didn't.

-Jessyi

...Yeah, I can't think of any way to salvage some dignity out of this that doesn't involve comparisons to Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, Quirk's Exception to Godwin's Law prevents me even from doing that with any chance of success.

SpeedyKQ · Oct 16, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

The people opposed to bringing a hard-res keep saying that if the party is bad enough to near-wipe, they aren't worth playing with anyways, so you don't need a res.

As much as I disagree with that, for me it is much more common to have a single person drop mid-battle than it is to near-wipe. And a hard res is needed to pick the person up when the fight is over. You don't want to waste a res sig on that, and you don't (usually) want to leave them dead.

Scutilla · Oct 16, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Everyone should have a rez. I don't care how leet your 8-skill build is, if you're the last person standing and you don't have a rez, you're going to feel really stupid.

All non-monks should have a rez signet.
If you're a monk secondary, a reusable rez like Resurrect is better- never know when you'll end up in the same situation twice.
Monk primaries should have a stronger rez, such as Restore Life or Resurrection Chant, to get the party back on its feet faster.
Obviously, the above applies to Ritualist primaries/secondaries and Flesh of my Flesh.
If you're in a particularly dangerous area such as Fissure of Woe, Rebirth is better. If you have a near-wipe and the monsters camp the party's corpses, it's the only way to get them out without aggroing. Other than that kind of situation though, Rebirth is pretty terrible for a rez.
I'm NOT suggesting that monks should rez in battle. They should only be using their long-cast rezes after battle. Rez signets should be used if an in-battle rez is really needed.
If there are a lot of bosses (such as in Dragon's Lair or Tahnnakai Temple), everyone can just bring rez signet and not bother with monk rezes.
If you're going to NOT bring a rez, PLEASE let your party know beforehand. I can't count the number of times I've failed Imperial Sanctum because Shiro got in a few lucky hits and we wiped because no one had a rez signet.

Note that the above only applies to PvE, I don't know what the general rules of conduct are for rezes in the various PvP modes (other than everyone should have a rez signet in RA/TA).

Akane · Oct 16, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Rebirth can be effectively managed in PvE, even in mid-battle, by switching weapon sets. I flip to my -5 axe and Forgotten Fan to preserve a healthy 25 point energy pool.

Best done if you're the secondary prot monk (Aegis spamming with Blessed Aura and a Totem Axe). That way the primary WoH monk maintains energy and sticks to healing.

Gun Pierson · Oct 16, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

Rebirth can be effectively managed in PvE, even in mid-battle, by switching weapon sets. I flip to my -5 axe and Forgotten Fan to preserve a healthy 25 point energy pool.

Best done if you're the secondary prot monk (Aegis spamming with Blessed Aura and a Totem Axe). That way the primary WoH monk maintains energy and sticks to healing.

True but it will never be as effective as res chant. You'll get even more energy when switching weapon sets and can cast the spell a few times in a row if needed, can't do that with rebirth. Also the healer doesn't need to heal him instantly or he might die again.

Rebirth:
pros:
1) teleport thingy

cons:
1) monk loses all energy
2) player comes back with 25% health only
3) player comes back with zero energy
4) player can't cast for x seconds

res chant:
pros:
1) monk keeps energy
2) player comes back with monks current life
3) player has 35% energy
4) player can cast spells right away

cons:
1) spell has half the normal range

Conclusion and on topic: The monk should carry a good hard res except for rebirth. Other players who have monk as 2nd should bring rebirth. The rest of the party res signet. I was all the time talking about pve ofcourse.

saphir · Oct 16, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

while rebirth may not be as effective as res chant, res chant will never be as flexible as rebirth. If you know how to manage your energy correctly you can not only use it as an emergency (talking about situations in which most of the team may be down, but otherwise the fight is stable, and you need more firepower to finish it off), but you can also extract dead party members from hairy aggro areas.

I never cast rebirth in the middle of battle without making sure of a few things: that i have a incoming supply of energy, that aggro is stable (no bladed aatxe is going running around killing casters), that no one is on the verge of death, that the players who have aggro are not going to lose it by dying or running, and most importantly that I will have enough energy immediately after to not only heal that person back up but also to keep anyone one else party from dying as well after the rebirth.

Age · Oct 16, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

When it come to rebirth over res chant or restorelife it is best for a Monk in PvE to carry res chant ot restorelife and let the other /Mo carry rebirth eg.R/Mo or even N/Mo.These are the one who should carry rebirth.When or if the group get wiped all the Monk has to do is wait for some clearing and res the person with rebirth then let them do the ressing.

Aillas · Oct 16, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

My monk philosophy on this depends on how bad I need the goal (mission, bonus, etc.) If it is something critical, I'll form a guild/alliance group, take rebirth, and work extra hard to "save" a mission from a near wipe. So for these situations I agree with the people who take rebirth/res whatever.

In a PUG, somewhere I'm tagging along helping 1 friend and 6 strangers, I don't give a crap. Especially if I've already finished the mission, bonus, or whatever. Here I agree with the "if the group near wipes, they are screwed" attitudes. I'll take a res, or maybe not, and if the group folds due to incompetence, retreating and rebirth isn't going to make a difference. Putting the time into saving the mission is more wasted time for me.

Kha · Oct 17, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Conclusion and on topic: The monk should carry a good hard res except for rebirth. Other players who have monk as 2nd should bring rebirth. The rest of the party res signet. I was all the time talking about pve ofcourse.

Your whole argument that monks should bring Resurrection Chant is very one-sided in that it can only be effective in one type of battle: when the party is taking very little damage and the enemy group is small. This isn't always the case and I argue that if someone has died during a battle then 95% of the time it isn't the case (and don't try to use the battle with Kunnavang as an example since it only represents less than 1% of the type of battles in the game, i.e. one target boss battles). And also if this is the case, then the still standing members should have no problem of defeating the enemies, rezzing the fallen member afterwards and recovering easily. If your team needs more damage power or certain skills from your fallen teammate to successfully kill the target, it is counterproductive that the damage dealers still go on while the monk who is keeping the party alive has to rez.

The opposite side is when the foes' power far exceeds the party's power and the damage being taken is heavy. This can be the case with bad pulls, added aggro, surprise spawns, new foes, etc. There's no time here for a monk to rez during battle. If the group is smart enough they will retreat, then they can Rebirth their fallen friend (especially if the enemy likes to camp the corpse) and make a fairly quick recovery. A monk should be the last one standing if the retreat goes well. A full recovery with Resurrection Chant while the enemy camps your teammates' corpses is most likely not going to happen.

Many people that argue the case for not carrying a rez seem to only point out that deaths are caused by stupidity or lack of energy. There are numerous reasons otherwise, like lag, bad spawns, new to the area/mission, etc. If you're in a party where 7 out of 8 of the members get wiped and you think it can only be because of stupidity, then you obviously don't understand that this is a game and it is not flawless. And if you can't tell that you are in a bad group, or that there are some problem members, after the first couple of battles and are kind of shocked and angry that your party gets near-wiped later on, then you only have yourself to blame for not paying close enough attention to your teammates' playing style.

-Old 3FL- · Oct 17, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

PvE - Monks should bring rebirth. Everyone else, a rez.
PvP - Everyone but monks should bring a rez.

Agreed with Ark.

Lady Lozza · Oct 17, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

PvE: All should have res of some sort - NO EXCEPTIONS.

Honestly I can't count the number ot times I've gone into a mission or farming or questing or whatever and someone doesn't bring res. The "I'm not a monk, or part monk" excuse doesn't wash it, especially when it comes from a warrior, as they have the higest lvl of armour in the game and when pulling too much aggro are often the last ones standing, squishies don't stand a chance if you don't pull right!

As for the type of res, really it is up to you. Res chant is great on Me/Mo players with the fast casting, at least one non-monk primary, should have rebirth, at least one monk should have rebirth. Thiese are just very general rules.

Another general rule is for monks to not res in the middle of a fight. Of course I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever, but it is easier and better for another caster/ranged character to atttend to it than the monk who will have to stop healing the rest of the party for the length of the spell.

the_jos · Oct 17, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I agree with all people in earlier postings that (playing PvE, ni PuGs) all people should carry a res.
i cannot think of one skill that is more valuable than the 7 skills of a fallen partymember.

When I play Mo/ I usually carry Rebith. When level has loads of bosses and I team up with a second monk, I also bring Sig. I'll call when I cast sig to let the other monk know he's on his own for a few seconds.
Most of the time other partymembers simply don't see that a partymember is down as fast as the monks.

When playing /Mo it's always a hard res.
I prefer playing casters, so most of the time it's Rebirth. Or Res Chant on my Me/Mo.

Also important is determining which res to use.
When a tank that has aggro goes down, Rebirth is not the best option.
Also chant would not be preferred, except on Me/Mo or the other 'tank' if you have one.
It's Sig or one of the 'keep alive for certain time res'.

I also would like to add that the type of res depends very much on the goal of the team.
When you attempt masters on the timed missions in Factions, rebirthing the whole team is not an option. So rebirth has less value there, other resses that get a player up and running near the battle are better there.

Laughing Man · Oct 17, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

To me it's really situation dependent..PUG vs henchies vs guildies? I typically go into PUG groups with the mentality that there's an idiot or n00b in a group. Someone that still hasn't learned it isn't smart to run and agro tons of mobs, get themselves killed and blame the monk. So all my characters (Ranger, Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer) carry a res when possible. Whether it's hard or soft.

For a while I kept using the Mesmer elite that gives you energy Mantra of Recall I think. I would keep using that before I casted Rebirth. Another reason why I always bring long distance resurrects is because people don't know when they should retreat. So they'll often die right in the mobs camp area -_-.

This topic reminds me of a mission I did with PUGs in I believe Abaddon's Mouth. I had already henched it so I just wanted to go capping but I decided to help the group with the mission. Turns out I was the ONLY one with a resurrection skill. And judging by how often the group died it was a miracle that the mission was finished.

Lena A · Oct 17, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

I prefer to play with 7 survivors => no rez required => 1 more free slot

Rez is for noobs

Ensign · Oct 17, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Rebirth is a hard res that you can use in a battle that you lose. Resurrection Chant is dependent upon winning.

Peace,
-CxE