Curse

Paperfly · Oct 13, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

I simply don't understand why people's skillbars are so crowded on their PvE monks. The single most skill-packed option you can build is a boon prot, and even then running Signet of Devotion + Inspired Hex + Contemplation of Purity is a luxury, not a necessity.

(CoP is the lynchpin here. If you need CoP in a PvE environment then you're in one of those groups everyone keeps invoking that has deeper issues.)

In fact, there are no non-farming builds for PvE whose bar is so crowded that they can't drop a slot for a res.

Quote:

Everybody who disagrees with this is wrong.

versus

Quote:

Everybody who believes this is an idiot.

For PuGs, the former is correct. For guild teams or closely prefabricated builds, the latter is... Still wrong. That is, Rebirth on the monk under those circumstances may be sub-optimal, but not by a hell of a lot (not enough to warrant an 'idiot' tag, anyway!).

I have spoken. Bow before Zod!

Another important point is that Rebirth is a lot less effective in Cantha than Tyria. Factions mobs are a lot more mobile, so those retreat situations are much less common... Oh, and they tend to detect Rebirth attempts and hunt you down.

Finally... Flesh of my Flesh. Seriously. If you have access to it (or if you're spending your secondary on just a hard res anyway) then bring it along and make yourself the official fast resser.

Sekkira · Oct 13, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

For PuGs, the former is correct. For guild teams or closely prefabricated builds, the latter is... Still wrong. That is, Rebirth on the monk under those circumstances may be sub-optimal, but not by a hell of a lot (not enough to warrant an 'idiot' tag, anyway!).

The point of my remark was to show how retarded the comment was. Guess my subtle remarks tend to go over most people's heads.

Clinically Proven · Oct 13, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

I would never expect a monk to have a rez, of any type, at any time.

Everyone else should have at least a signet, always, x/Mo's should have rez chant or rebirth in place of signet in PvE.

Sli Ander · Oct 13, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Every plan is good, until the first arrow flies.The best laid plans of mice and men. Not as pretty as the other quotes(where are they from by the way?), but they still make my point. Rebirth is the most popular of the resses, especially the teleport part. A monk should carry this. I would say at least half the team should carry a sig, just in case something should get the monk.
But before you go all "grab the torches and pitchforks" on me, let me say this: A monk should carry a res because no matter how hard you try, eventually something will go horribly wrong. And then you'll be wishing you had that res. No matter how good your group is, something could go against you that you are unprepared for. So don't go bashing people for being cautious(especially when playing with pugs). I'm not going to say which res is best, I'm just saying its best to carry one.
But thats just my two cents.

Florence Cortista · Oct 13, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

A) I didn't tell you my skill bar.
B) Bringing suboptimal skills is terrible play. I clearly don't consider res an optimal skill. I believe I explained as such.

And there's the voice of reason to soothe my aching brain-wounds. Thank you good sir.

i like this. it makes sense.

Guildwars is full of players who in pubs who...
a) believe all monks can out heal all mobs
b) believe all battles are won by force
c) believe that planing before any encounter is bad
d) believe that running is a tabo.

Now im not saying everyone, just the majority that fill pubs. im my life i've had maybe 100 pubs in GW which just knew how to play well, thousands more who could not.

Thallandor · Oct 13, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

^ Pubs = PuGs (Pick up groups) ??

Memnochs Adversary · Oct 13, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Well, considering this is my first forum post, I figured I would post it on something I think worthwhile in pve.

PVE: Everyone brings a res (signet in some situations even if /mo [raisu, tahnnakai, etc] where bosses are plentiful. And a hard res [chant, rebirth, et al] where they are not and there is more time to spare such as all tyria missions, and the back way in eternal grove...)
Seriously. Everyone who plays in PVE has played with henchmen at some point or another. Now the way I'm reading it so far upon this thread, is that it's pretty much 50/50 on whether bringing res or not. How many of you wouldn't have completed missions or quests if henchmen didn't bring a res of any sort. Or how many would people be screaming at Anet WTF WHY DIDN'T the henchmen rez me?!?!?! At the very least, I think if what you expect from the hench, you should expect from yourself. If you don't care about ressing other party members, why should they care about ressing you. Which is where this whole conversation started from.

PVP: Everybody except a monk should bring a res. Monks in my opinion as my favourite class playing, these are my observations:
GvG: I've only monked twice in GvG situations... my very first time being against Te so not pleasant for me. Second time one of our dmg dealers didn't set attribs correctly, but seeing the high level of play I can understand why GvG monks don't bring a res.
HA:
8v8: monk bringing res, 3 backlines, (I've played all main 3 monk backlines, WoH/HP, Sb/infuse, RC. And each time I've always brought a res, with the team doing considerably well. Never winning/holding, but enough for a few fame per night.
6v6: Extra healing/port is required in 6v6 so I can understand the res sig being dropped out in HA here.
RA: Unless you're a good healer I expect you to bring a res. Sadly enough noone does.
TA: See above, except in a team way... you need to tell the teammates to bring a res.
AB: Res not needed. No death penalty... only purpose of a res, seems to be so you and your teammates don't get seperated.

Kool Pajamas · Oct 13, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

In pve random pugs or random arena, everyone take a rez of some type (usually a sig in randoms). In an organized group it depends on the team build. In AB never bring one unless your team build requires it for some reason but thats very rare...

Thats the best answer I see.

Narutoscryed · Oct 13, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Rebirth for monks sucks. It is a horrible philosophy on PvE.

You have 1 or 2 monks for heals and you have 6 for offense. And you expect the monk to bring res??
The monk has to bring 2-3 spammable healing skills, 1 con removal, 1 hex removal, 1-2 protection skill and 1-2 energy management and

Seriously - there is no offensive skill more important than res. So tell your W/Mo, your E/Mo or your N/Mo MM (who already has points in heals) to bring the hard res.

Rebirth on monks is as bad Mending on a W/Mo.

And if a W/Mo brings Mending and complains monks don't have Rebirth - tell him press F12 and uninstall!

And if your monk is the last one to survive and you are depending on hard res - that is because 7 other people did not know basic things like kiting and retreating. You don't take damage until you die or ignore monk's energy.

It kills me when I see an people only retreat when 5 people are already dead. These are the same people waiting for Rebirth.

And why would put hard res on the easiest and lowest armored target?

i farm a crapload.. and i three man alot.. as a monk i bring rebirth in my build... so do my farming buddies... and we all bring rebirth..

here is why:

YOUR WAY:Lets say tanking monk dies... he is in the middle of aggro.. you run up to rez him with your rez sig... he comes up and dies instantly from the 20 some odd baddies around him.. either way you are out a rez sig and are totally screwed...

EVERY FARMER AND THEIR MOMS WAY: The tanking monk goes down.. the partner runs away from aggro.. de aggros the aggro.. then procedes to use rebirth on the fallen tank.. the tank is teleported out of the massive pile of aggro and all is fine.... yay..

oh and also.. as a healing monk.. in the rare occasion my party craps out..and then im the only one left alive. I HAVE REBIRTH.. I BAIL.. . i run back in and rebirth everyone out of aggro... we all end up alive.. and continue on to complete the mission..

there are no such things as bad skills.. only bad players

........ya you should never say anything totally or absolutly sucks.. because you make your self look like an ass when you assume... just some freindly advice..

bigwig · Oct 13, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

just like you assumed he was talking about farming groups, when he was clearly talking in context about pve 8 man groups?

or did you just ignore the context so you could call someone an ass?

Darakus · Oct 13, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

........ya you should never say anything totally or absolutly sucks.. because you make your self look like an ass when you assume... just some freindly advice..

Not exactly the best english around but nevertheless true, where skills are concerned there is no absolute best way to do anything.

Concerning the presence of resurrection skills on party members.

In pvp :

Winning is the key and fast resurrection is the backup key in case of a slip up and should thus be carried on every party member bar the monks who have other things to focus on. If there comes a time when the monks are the only one left rest assured they won't be given the time to resurrect anyway.

I know most people only consider resurrection signet to have a place in pvp but bear in mind that a) some environments or situation make hard resurrection spells a possibility (GvG comes to mind) and b) Flesh of my Flesh for example is behaving in about the same way as an infuse would and as such remains a possible choice (yes I know that some people will not consider it as optimal still I've seen victories decided in RA-TA-HA-GvG because the winning team had a hard resurrection skill available, it might not be optimal but if it gives you the win it is good enough in my book)

In pve :

Keeping the team alive to complete the objectives you have fixed yourselves is the key. Wheather this is achieved by having a team who knows how to aggro, kite, retreat, ... or by a team who brought the proper skills to allow itself to rebuild in case of incidents doesn't matter.

As such always plan for the kind of team you will be participating in and the kind of area you will be exploring.

If you know the participants and the area well and are confident no resurrection skills will be needed on your character then by all means don't take any, I'm pretty confident you have a use for that extra slot.

If you know the participants well but not the area and nobody on your team is really familiar with it then take a resurrection skill, chances are there will come a point where you will fight more mobs than you can deal with due to unexpected patrol appearances, never let it be said that not being ready for anything that could come is the optimal choice.

If you don't know your team's participants bring a resurrection skill, don't fail a mission/quest/... because you didn't plan for the fact your team would behave in a destructive way.

Concerning rebirth I believe the skill is a wonderful complement to a necrotic transversal and a great extracting mechanism when you need to get back those members who died in the middle of the monster pack (don't pretend it doesn't happen because you'll jinx yourself by doing so

)

As a conclusion I'd just say to always prepare for the worst, its the best way to have it better.

Emik · Oct 13, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Monks bringing rebirth is kinda silly to res in battle... ok you can res afterwards but why not that skillslot for a skill to heal?

First choice: Necro; why? for the soul reaping of course.
Rebirth drains your energy but that SR will fill it up quick enuff...
Second choice: Me/Mo; Mantra of Recall; cast it before you rebirth

Very bad choice E/Mo with rebirth... all that energy gone to waste.
Other possibilities: you do take a rebirth for your monk but require a Necro to BiP or BR you...

Monks better take Resurrection Chant or Restore Life since they won't be ressing in battle anyways. just my two cents

Sab · Oct 13, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

In PvE: Everyone should have one. Rebirth if /Mo, Res Sig if non-/Mo or in a place with lots of bosses.

In PvP: Everyone but the Monks should have a Res Sig, Glyph Sac + Res Chant, or FC Res.

Carth` · Oct 13, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

PvE: monks bring a non-draining res, everyone else bring Rebirth or Res sig
PvP: everyone except monks bring a sig, unless you can cast faster like an ele or mesmer, but even then, I prefer being resurrected at full health

Paperfly · Oct 13, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Guess my subtle remarks tend to go over most people's heads.

Sorry, but your duck was quacking like a crowbar. You know, as in "if it looks like a crowbar, and is subtle as a crowbar..."

Quote:

And if your monk is the last one to survive and you are depending on hard res - that is because 7 other people did not know basic things like kiting and retreating. You don't take damage until you die or ignore monk's energy.

...Well, duh? Lots of groups suck. I'm in one of them on average every couple of days. That's why I run builds that are optimised to compensate for idiots, and not ones that assume every single aspect of my teammates play is polished and perfected.

carbajac · Oct 13, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Other possibilities: you do take a rebirth for your monk but require a Necro to BiP or BR you...

Monks better take Resurrection Chant or Restore Life since they won't be ressing in battle anyways. just my two cents

Not necessary, focus swap before you cast rebirth. Switch back and you're good to go.

Sekkira · Oct 13, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Sorry, but your duck was quacking like a crowbar. You know, as in "if it looks like a crowbar, and is subtle as a crowbar..."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

...Well, duh? Lots of groups suck. I'm in one of them on average every couple of days. That's why I run builds that are optimised to compensate for idiots, and not ones that assume every single aspect of my teammates play is polished and perfected.

I don't assume my team mates are going to be top notch players capable of matching wits with the top 5 guilds in all aspects of the game. There is a very large middleground between absolutely horrible at the game and those players. I assume my team isn't at the bottom of the skill level in playing the game and adjust my build to suit that, without a res (when I'm monking).

I've said often (bragging more like it) that I enjoy a good challange as a monk, however there's a difference between a team taking a lot of pressure and a team you could swear were trying their best to party wipe. I'd rather not monk for the latter where there's going to be a long, tedious zerg to complete whatever it is we're aiming for and multiple uses of that rebirth skill if I brought it along. I'd say the team could stand to learn a bit more about the game if that res skill is the difference between success or failure, and I'm no teacher.

NJudson · Oct 13, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Alrighty then, I'll give my 2 cents. Since I only play PvE then I'm speaking from that perspective. There is no 1 perfect way to play. Everyone has their own styles that they've come to play and gotten good with. However, no matter how good you are or how good you think you are, everyone should bring a rez. Personally, no matter the character I play (all have monk secondary) I bring rebirth. Even if you are captain kickass and can dominate all before you, you simply don't know how good/bad/stupid your PUG team will be and if they do something dumb and get killed then your only alternative to finish mission/quest is to solo it (good luck with that) if you didn't bring a rez.

Occasionally I have been a bonehead and didn't retreat when I should've and the team failed because the guy who ran away didn't have a rez. However, there have been so many times where I've saved the team because I was smart and retreated and then rebirthed everyone back.

So then comes my next point. I'm not one to tell someone how to play their character or what build/skills to use, but everyone should carry a rez. I don't care if you think your super leet pwned retard build "requires" that 8th slot. ALWAYS bring a rez. And for those monks who say the 8th slot is better used for e-management/hex removal/...etc then find a different variation of you build to include rez damnit.....your not a god.

This one of the variations of my monk build that has served me quite well and I have gotten many compliments before.

WoH
Dwaynas Kiss
Orizon of Healing
RoF
Mend Condition
Hex Removal (any type that suits)
Vigorous Spirit (unless in heavy enchant removal area)
Rebirth

Always bring a rez cause you just don't know if or when you'll need it.

Gun Pierson · Oct 13, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

I'm very surprised to see so many monks who bring rebirth instead of for example res chant.

myword · Oct 13, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

there are no such things as bad skills.. only bad players

hahaha, don't tempt someone into listing the number of shit skills in guildwars currently.