Curse

Gorebrex · Oct 12, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Only a VERY few times I forgot to bring a rez, due to soloing for items to merch, and forgetting to put it back. ALL my characters take rez, W?N has sig, N/Mo, E/Mo, and Mo/Me take restore life. As to why put rez on loewest armored target? Because theyre supposed to be in the back, fighting classes(usually warriors) in front "holding the line". Heres a couple quotes from one of my favorite people "......If equally matched you may engage him. If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing. And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

"In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack - the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers. The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn. It is like moving in a circle - you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities of their combination?"

This is one of the best ones - "Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards... Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain."

Aera Lure · Oct 12, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Depends for me on a few things but generally speaking in PvE: res sigs on warriors and others for emergency battle res, one or two casters if possible with a hard res/rebirth and no res on the monks. If there are two+ monks and one can fit rebirth, ok, but usually all 8 slots are needed for dedicated healing and energy management, condition removal etc and only the extreme cases should a monk bring a res. Imho.

crimsonfilms · Oct 12, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I miss the point of the quotes in regards to the points you have raised. I don't think any of the quotes have any relationship to the current discussion. I may be wrong.

Quote:

Because theyre supposed to be in the back, fighting classes(usually warriors) in front

And so is the rest of the caster line. Monks healing range is only as big as your offensive caster. So unless your offensive caster is attacking something beyond your tank, positional wise, they are not better than monks. Even if the offensive characters are more forward (aka midlined), if you have to wait until the midline is dead to retreat, then really there is something wrong with battle philosophy that goes along with Monk + Rebirth.

Like I said in the other thread - it is flawed battle tactics that justifies Rebirth on monks. If you stop the using flawed battle PvE tactics, you will see that Rebirth on monks is also flawed.

Disclaimer = this is 6 or 8 men builds - not farming missions.

Ork Pride · Oct 12, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

we should have a mini-skill slot just for the ressurect signet

dansamy · Oct 12, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

In general, my philosophy is to not carry a res on most of my monk builds. I regularly boon prot in PvE and there just isn't room. I do carry a res in most missions and end-game area like UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz.

Who should carry res?

Everyone except the monks.

*/Mo should have at least 2 copies of rebirth and one copy of vengence.

Mo/*, only if they have room and/or it's an area like Urgoz/UW/etc., vengence.

*/* (not monk primary or secondary) Res sig, flesh of my flesh or lively was naomi (for rit primary/secondary)

And if the PuG I am in looks particularly stupid, I bring Unyielding Aura. It's the best aggro management tool out there.

ss1986v2 · Oct 12, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

in pvp i can understand not bringing a rez for the monk. you need every slot you got to anicipate all of the different things you will encounter. but in pve, id say you can monk most of the game with only 4-5 skill usually. you know before hand what the area is gonna contain. you know wether or not you are going to need heavy condition or hex removal, wether energy is going to be an issue, or if you should or should not be using enchants. why bring a skill to cover every monking scenario in the game if ya rly not gonna face many of them. and heck, there are usually two monks, making it much easier to cover your bases, ie: one prot with condition removal and a heal with hex removal.

and if you dont like the idea of two monks planning out their skill bars together, why not use a build like this to cover your bases:

healing enchant - sead, vig
prot enchant - RoF, PS
spot heal - orison, heal other, dwayna kiss, WoH
another spot heal - see above
condition removal - Mend Ailment
hex removal - remove hex, inspired, smite
energy management - power drain, MoR
rez - rebirth, chant, whatever

doesnt this cover all the bases?

in the standard two monk line, if your team is any good at all, the monk is usually standing around waiting to heal the guy holding the agro. this should be the game plan for most all pve situations:

tank grabs agro. tank holds agro.
when safe, casters move in to cast/heal.
after the nukes/ss/whatever are done, mob is now dead.
rinse and repeat.

and if one of the monks happens to be a bonder or if there is a rit lord in the group, like maybe in FoW for example, the other monk is gonna be sitting around waiting to drop his Orison and then sit back and wait some more. so why not bring a spare rez incase something goes wrong?

saphir · Oct 12, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I think the question who should carry rez isn't as important as "how the the person w/ a rez play?"

too often I've been in groups where the people carrying rebirth are lying dead on the ground in aggro range of the remaining mobs. Or the only ones who lived don't have a res sig or only have resurrect w/ no pts in it.

I mean, if you have rebirth, why didn't you run when you started dying?? Or if you have res, why did you run away and stand and watch everyone else die?? What do you think you'd do if you lived at everyone else's expense if you don't have a res?

I generally always carry rebirth on my monk in PVE, it's just a habit for frequenting uw/fow/elites most of the time. Really, the rest of pve is not too hard so use a slot on rebirth, especially with wipe-happy pugs.

Also I've always carried rez on all my chars in pve just because I'm the type of player that pays extra attention to the overall health and capabilities of the party. If things start looking hairy, I reposition and back off a bit and retarget just in case the front lines start going down, and focus more on minimizing damage to myself if the monks are having severe issues. And I know when to run, so I know I'm most likely to live in an event of a party wipe, thus I always carry a res on my chars. I don't have a warrior or assassin so I'm not quite sure what I would do in that case.

As for rebirth during battle, you can do it if you know what you're doing, if you've got aggro under control (not loose and whacking on all the casters), and if you can swap your focus, have an incoming source of energy and can cast something like seed or MOP on the aggro target so free yourself up for that rez. The only case I generally do this is if there's only 1 war alive and myself, possibly other casters w/o a hard rez. Otherwise, 99% of the time, plz don't rebirth during battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

And so is the rest of the caster line. Monks healing range is only as big as your offensive caster. So unless your offensive caster is attacking something beyond your tank, positional wise, they are not better than monks. Even if the offensive characters are more forward (aka midlined), if you have to wait until the midline is dead to retreat, then really there is something wrong with battle philosophy that goes along with Monk + Rebirth.

Actually, to be more exact, ideally the monks healing range is one person/target less than the offensive caster's. Because where as you only need to be close enough to heal the furthest member of your party (usually the warrior or tank), the offensive caster has to be 1 target closer than you as they have to target the nearest enemy. So yes, the monk should always be the furthest back. Only things further behind the monk would be spirits (and their casters), or bored-out-of-their-mind bond monks =)

But a caster is hardly ever only focusing on the frontline enemy, as mesmers may need to interrupt their backline monks/casters, eles may need to nuke their backline, and curse necros can't be casting SS on the same frontline target over and over.

Sofonisba · Oct 12, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Unless I am soloing, I take some sort of res no matter what: monk, /mo or not. Just habit.

I understand the arguments: "Well you were doing something wrong as a monk if you need to res anyone at any time," and "Well your team was doomed to noobness if someone with a res didn't stay alive." I understand them, but I do not agree.

I am a competent monk, I'd never call myself leet, but I can be relied upon, and I am frequently called upon to help guildies/alliance members. I manage my energy easily under normal battle conditions.

But I recognize that things happen ALL the time to perfectly good teams. A great tank can slip up and accidentally call the wrong target, a lag spike causes an ele to end up in mid-melee, whatever. One extra healing spell, and no res, in a crisis situation? Not gonna help. And one mistake (which might domino into more mistakes) should not make it destiny that our mission fail.

I always take a res. Always. It only depends on the mission/quest, and what my prof is, whether it's res chant, sig, or rebirth.

Franco · Oct 12, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

I just hate being rebirthed by a wammo as a monk and he expects me to heal him right away :\ disabled skills for 10 seconds ftl, unless he uses MoP.. :\

And since when has this thread turned into a Wammo flaming thread?

If the warrior ressurected you then you should be thankful not ungrateful, maybe next time he should just leave you dead

B Ephekt · Oct 12, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I don't do pve much but when I do it's generally with friends who I know are good players, so I don't take a rez.

If I'm forced to PUG I will take Rebirth so the pubbies don't cry, and when I need to rez I switch to my negative energy set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

In 6 vs 6 at least one monk should take signet, IMO, otherwise not enough signets >_<

No, 4 sigs is enough in 6v6, especially considering that most people only ran 5 sigs in 8v8. Monk bars are even more cramped in 6v6 so they don't really have the place for a sig.

Akhilleus · Oct 12, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by morimoto

since rebirth drains all your energy, the monk should never rez a person during a battle, other party members should carry a rez signet or other rez spell.

before you cast, switch to a -energy set, and then back again.
with the right items you can get -20 or more energy...which means after you switch back after rebirth, you'll immidiatly have 20+ energy to work with, allowing you to function.

Age · Oct 12, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

In PvE everyone should bring a res of some kind Monks should not use rebirth unless otherwise.In PvP everyone should bring signets except in HA and GvG Monks shouldn't have res at all.To Jessyi you may think you don't need a res being a good PvP player but if everyone in a PuG turn out dead in a Mission and you have no res it is time for you to die or /resign.I wouldn't be over confident if I were you as most who play Monk around here are just as good as you.

Tainek · Oct 12, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

In PvE The monk should always have Rebirth if there is two mo/* , if there is just one monk, he should not, and he should not have one in pvp

with a monk team you need
Heals (at least two/three spamables and a power heal, ala WoH)
Prot (Prot Spirit, RoF, ect)
Condition Removal (At least one spammable, extinguish in heavy areas)
Hex Removal (Have the prot monk take Expel Hex's)
Energy Management (Cant say i often need this in PvE , i often take channeling, and should i hit <5 energy and the battle is going badly, i cast channeling and run into the fray, from here i can cast as often as i like, it often saves a wipe, and no, it doesnt get me killed, kiting ftw

)

So

Heal Monk
WoH
Wisper
Kiss
touch/Orison/open
Channeling
Heal Party
-Open-
Rebirth

8 Insp
11 Df
14 Heal

Prot Monk
RoF
Guardian
Remove Condition
Expel Hex
Channeling
Extinguish
-Open-
Rebirth

14 Prot
11 Df
8 Insp

Plenty of room for rebirth, and theres an open slot on each monk for utility or e-management, so with two monks, i dont understand people saying there isnt room

Gorebrex · Oct 13, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

The quotes maybe were a bit too long, but basically, be able to adjust tactics(flexible builds), be able to retreat(mobility), direct attack is the job of warriors, rangers, and eles mostly, the indirect is shutdown from mezs, healing from monks(keeping rest of team able to fight), and AoE spells/effects.

But I agree alot with Sofonisba's post, things go wrong, you or a team member will get a lag spike, ect, and then you will have to adjust, thats all you can do.

Thallandor · Oct 13, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

PvE/quest missions:

combat rez is possible.

Monks: Res Chant.
Other classes excluding eles with monk sec, rebirth.
Other classes without monk sec, rez sig.

PvE UW/FoW/tombs/Elite missions:

combat rez is not advised.

Monks: Res Chant/rebirth-The Deep.
Other classes excluding eles with monk sec, rebirth.
Other classes without monk sec, rez sig.

Sekkira · Oct 13, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

(note: ideal pve formation)

A: Assassins or melee backline
B: Warriors or tanks of some kind
C: Rangers, Mesmers, Elementalists, Necromancers
D: Monks or Ritualists

As A, I'll bring a res because there's a likely chance I'll be in the mid line recharging when things drop. As a B I debate bringing a res due to making sure I'm the first to die. As C, I will definately always bring one to get those B's back up asap. As D, I will never bring one. When B goes down, C should get the hint and retreat, assuming there is still a sizable amount of enemies present.

If they all die, it's because I'm not stupid and retreated beyond healing range of which they didn't get the hint and stupidly died. I use my 8 skills to keep people alive and if that isn't good enough, the group isn't worth continuing on with.

Mr_eX · Oct 13, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

PvE - Monks should bring rebirth. Everyone else, a rez.
PvP - Everyone but monks should bring a rez.

Everybody who disagrees with this is wrong.

Sekkira · Oct 13, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_eX

Everybody who disagrees with this is wrong.

Everybody who believes this is an idiot.

Jessyi · Oct 13, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Why is taking too much damage bad play, but bringing suboptimal skills not bad play? Lots of silly skillbars will work if you've got good teammates.

A) I didn't tell you my skill bar.
B) Bringing suboptimal skills is terrible play. I clearly don't consider res an optimal skill. I believe I explained as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Looks like the failure is mutual to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Rebirth on monks is as bad Mending on a W/Mo.

And if a W/Mo brings Mending and complains monks don't have Rebirth - tell him press F12 and uninstall!

And if your monk is the last one to survive and you are depending on hard res - that is because 7 other people did not know basic things like kiting and retreating. You don't take damage until you die or ignore monk's energy.

It kills me when I see an people only retreat when 5 people are already dead. These are the same people waiting for Rebirth.

And there's the voice of reason to soothe my aching brain-wounds. Thank you good sir.

ryanryanryan0310 · Oct 13, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

EVERYONE needs REZ!!!!!

A "GREAT" built without rez isn't a "GREAT" built at all.