Curse

blastm · Oct 26, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

wow. until now, i was thinking: "why did they put breath of fire in the game, when we already have this useless nerfed firestorm?"

Now it's worse, i'm wondering if it'll be wise to strart nightfall with my fire ele like i wanted to, or even start a new dervich..

i'm all for nerfing solo farming if it means more fun and drops for everyone, but this new Aoe system obviously need a few tweaks...

The Prince · Oct 26, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

a good argument against the update is that it changes in a flawed manner the way the professions were designed to operate. if a warrior cant hold aggro to keep casters from getting killed, then what use is it to have a balanced party?while that may not be the best argument, i also think that "randomizing" anything doesnt make the AI more like a real player, since real players usually follow some sort of plan when taking on groups, so randomizing what monsters attack and what they run from seems to make it harder, but not in a contructive manner.

Brother Redmund · Oct 26, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

This is directed at the OP's reference about VWK farming.

I may be missing something in the definition of AoE and my understanding of the skill Vengeful Was Khanhei, but how is the use of this skill going to trigger scatter due to AoE tweaking?

Unlike SS, the dmg is not spread over any other target with the exception of the one that is hitting you. I may be wrong but I dont understand how this is an AoE skill, I just dont think it applies to VWK.

With regard the actual AoE skills being affected; at least people are going to need to think and rebuild the concept of "farming".... Cantha has been farmed to the point of extinction simply by applying farming techniques perfected since Sorrows Furnace was introduced.

A good shake up of things cant hurt.

Imaginos · Oct 26, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selena_Lionheart

Anyone else suddenly look at the dervish now with the attitude of "Wow, are they useless, freaking walking firestorm." As there attacks are all AoE, and if the scatter works on them, hello to being useless in PvE. Not to mention, the damage range and AoE made them all but useless in PvP to start, so, yay to the new totally useless class! If its true, assassins finally wont be the most unwanted class in PvE.

I suppose time will tell, but I ought to work on a hammer based dervish while I wait...

That was my first thought...wow nerfed before Nightfall even goes live. Most of the dervish skills are aoe based AND the scythe auto swings at up to 3 targets.

GG ANet!

Carth` · Oct 26, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm all for anything that makes PvE more of a challenge, and causes the AI to act more closely like real human opponents. I don't know why everyone wouldn't be for this, unless you'd rather just have /iddqd and /idkfa along with a BFG to just kill everything on your screen.

Seriously, let's see a reasonable argument against this update.

Exactly. If a group of humans is being hurt by SS, they move away from the person hexed with it. If a foe has SoJ on them, most humans stop attacking after a few knockdowns. I don't see what the problem with that is..

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prince

a good argument against the update is that it changes in a flawed manner the way the professions were designed to operate. if a warrior cant hold aggro to keep casters from getting killed, then what use is it to have a balanced party?while that may not be the best argument, i also think that "randomizing" anything doesnt make the AI more like a real player, since real players usually follow some sort of plan when taking on groups, so randomizing what monsters attack and what they run from seems to make it harder, but not in a contructive manner.

Well, the warrior can't "hold aggro" in PvP, but the class is still used a lot.

aspectacle · Oct 26, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Solo and duo farming filled in the time between chapters for me when I felt that all the other content was done. So I am sad to see it go (in it's current known form at least). It is possible that without the farming I'll simply put down Nightfall when it is done and play another game rather than extending its life as has happened so far.

I was surprised when the first AoE change came out that SS *didn't* trigger the scatter response and was surprised that they didn't fix it then.

Maria The Princess · Oct 26, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritualistic Spankin

Chinese Gold Farmer #1 "Shittaki mushrooms...how we gonna make money?"

Chinese Gold Farmer #2 "I don't know"

Chinese Gold Farming Boss "Quickly, make a warrior group, and DO MISSIONS as fast as you can!"

ROFLMAO

thats totaly expected!!!1

Ritualistic Spankin · Oct 26, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Redmund

This is directed at the OP's reference about VWK farming.

I may be missing something in the definition of AoE and my understanding of the skill Vengeful Was Khanhei, but how is the use of this skill going to trigger scatter due to AoE tweaking?

Unlike SS, the dmg is not spread over any other target with the exception of the one that is hitting you. I may be wrong but I dont understand how this is an AoE skill, I just dont think it applies to VWK.

A good shake up of things cant hurt.

Right after the update i tried VwK farming, and it works at 1st, then the enemies pull out, and some come back in while others heal...then they would alternate constantly, so nothing was dying. This was with the wardens outside Arborstone btw.

Ritualistic Spankin · Oct 26, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

ROFLMAO

thats totaly expected!!!1

Just a note, I didn't want my chinese gold farmer remark to come across in any negative, streotypical, or racist manner. If it did, I apologize and I will remove it.

Rabies · Oct 26, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

In reference to SS and some other skills and how they "should have caused AOE scatter to begin with"... well, because it makes the skills pointless. Firestorm and other true AOE over time spells are still going to cause damage to those foes while they try to flee, especially if you slow them in some way. However, SS and some other spells just becomes worthless. They hit once, and then decide to wait till it wears off to attack again.

Basically what I mean is that only AOE spells that hit in increments over time are the only spells which should cause scatter. Spells which effect multiple targets in a single attack, or ones which which are conditional on an action like SOJ shouldn't ever cause scatter because they get quite useless.

A second point is that you can't just look at all this stuff in terms of farming. This current "bug" also effects regular PvE play. Think how annoying it was when an E brought firestorm and make all the enemies scatter and ruin your strategy of blockading enemies from the casters, making your Warriors run after them, etc. Well.... now most caster spells will cause this. What are you going to do? Go with just Tanks and Monks into a zone?

-

Li Tian · Oct 26, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

instead of typing here, play the game, just ran a mission with my ele, my world rocks again - they have put the punch back in, blinded by the new 6ft high hp counters but it really feels like i got my bang back.

as for my 55, that was a specific build for a specific type of farm, so what if they have nerfed it, find a new route for gold grind - you can use the fact that melee monsters run to your advantage.

alot of really good changes, and havent tried yet but looks like my war might be useful again too.

arcanemacabre · Oct 26, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

It makes a quarter of the skills out there as useful as firestorm in PvE?

Decent argument, which is countered by simply pointing you to another large chunk of skills called snares. Snares are not a strictly kiting type of skill, they are meant to hold someone down while you wail on them. Keeps them from running. That's the idea. It now makes both types of skills more useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prince

a good argument against the update is that it changes in a flawed manner the way the professions were designed to operate. if a warrior cant hold aggro to keep casters from getting killed, then what use is it to have a balanced party?while that may not be the best argument, i also think that "randomizing" anything doesnt make the AI more like a real player, since real players usually follow some sort of plan when taking on groups, so randomizing what monsters attack and what they run from seems to make it harder, but not in a contructive manner.

And how is this any different from the way people act in PvP? Randomization is the closest thing AI can come to the sometimes irrationality of the human mind. I dare you to program it better. Besides, humans might as well be considered random, since when you face one guild, their strategies are completely different from another guild, and although they may appear to have similar teams, they will act completely different, thus a sense of randomness.

A warrior's job in PvP is to apply pressure. They give casters/healers something to worry about. In PvE, the warriors job was to tank/gather aggro. Why should there be two completely different jobs for the same class just because of the difference of fighting AI versus fighting humans? This difference in adaptive play style is the gap Anet is trying to fill here. That is what I love about it.

Soon, you will be able to be effective in PvE, and actually not be a complete joke in PvP. Your same strategies may actually work in both. This is what i find absolutely cool.

combatchuck · Oct 26, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

We haven't seen what it does to Nightfall skills yet, so there could be a reason that we don't know about. Having said that, I have to disagree with some parts of this nerf. Yeah, it makes them behave more like human players, which raises the bar. Human players, however, do not travel in packs of 20, with bosses that do double damage. Human players also don't reach level 28. There has to be some kind of trade-off, or some parts of this game are going to be unplayable. Just thinking of playing the first quest in the UW with a balanced group turns my stomach now.

I really hope this makes the value of my hard-earned money raise, because I have a lot of time and frustration put into my 300k. One positive thing may come out of this. Maybe, just MAYBE, I can find a regular UW/FOW group now. Farming is grinding, and this game isn't supposed to be about grinding.

Sheol · Oct 26, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Why did ArenaNet nerf AoE this much? Do they want us all to be Warriors?

Lol funny you should mention that in a video i saw a while back (was a preview for guild wars) every character was a warrior.

The Prince · Oct 26, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

ive never been in a group and had one guy just randomly decide to run away, or attack a caster for no reason, or break aggro on a whim. i agree with your analysis of the warrior's job, but the problem is PvE and PvP are remarkably different. i dhate to have to use the same kind of specialized build for pve as i do in pve, just to be able to be effective in beating missions, it takes a lot of the freedom out of what you can use and still be effective with. also, if i wanted to have PvE play be a lot like PvP, id just play PvP. there are people who dont like the way pvp operates and thus are there purely for the roleplaying/pve aspect of the game.

Valkyrian · Oct 26, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Scattered monsters are too busy running for their lives to attack you, which means you squishy casters are now safer from mobs. This should be a good news, so why complain?

They break aggro from the tank in the AoE.. then immediately go for the most prone caster int he area... have tested it in both Proph and Factions now with mission PuG groups and solo/dual farming. The aggro break in AoE is disgusting, tanking isn't tanking if the enemies break your aggro for any AoE and go to nearest target...

As for the "loss for PvE'ers win for the farmers"... I agree completely, the farmers already have loads of cash, not to mention hundreds of ectos... now that ecto prices are going to double-triple in the coming weeks they will be able to sit back on it for a long time to come. Anyone looking to get FoW for less than 1mil or by UW dualing will have to try somethin else, cause the cash flow is gonna stop.

update- /notsigned

Rabies · Oct 26, 2006, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

A warrior's job in PvP is to apply pressure. They give casters/healers something to worry about. In PvE, the warriors job was to tank/gather aggro. Why should there be two completely different jobs for the same class just because of the difference of fighting AI versus fighting humans? This difference in adaptive play style is the gap Anet is trying to fill here. That is what I love about it.

Ok, so basically make PvE like PvP right? Make your techniques the same and strategies the same? Ummm, no fun. This is why some people enjoy PvE more than PvP. They like the difference in how the game plays. Sure I like doing some AB at times, but I honestly would prefer PvE as long as I have somewhere new to explore new enemies to overcome. I don't want to play GW where every experience is the same... Factions was already like that enough with having every mob having a blend of enemies instead of having similar classes.

-

LoKi Foxfire · Oct 26, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

*dances* At least they didn't nerf Barrage yet either!

*hides his precious Barrage under a nerf proof bed*

FloatingLakes · Oct 26, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

someone said now people should use snares to counter the running of enemies. well, that works for certain damage over time spells such as degen and straight dmg dealing, but what about SS, Empathy, Backfire, Price of Failure, Insidieous Parasitic... etc etc.

to answer the question why should PvE be any different than how PvP is played, because they are two different things!

Tickle · Oct 26, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Great so now we are going to have 7 leeroys and a monk dedicated to keeping them alive.. "WTF you doing monk, heal...F*&KIN NOOB!!!"..."Monk Of Party has left the game"..
For every injustice there has to be a greater justice, lets see what nightfall brings.
I however don't agree on such a major change before a much anticipated release.. Marketing is everything and the best value to spreading that marketing is word of mouth by the consumers, I would say from reading every post here that 70% of ANets consumers aren't going to market this game in a positive aspect. ANet make the rules, the game and house the servers, lets hope that ANet has a huge nestegg on hand to help pay the bills if the games don't get sold.
:P