Curse

Blackest Rose · Oct 31, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Stagnation is the worst killer of any activity. Especially in an online persistant world, the game has to change constantly. If things stay the same all the time, then there's no point in logging in because there will be no experiences to have.

Sid - I have to disagree with you - if stagnation was a killer why aren't we up to our ears in threads like "change UW - it's boring!", "please nerf stuff because change is good!"
Why wasn't UW/FOW completely empty prior to the update? - it hasn't changed in months and people were happily playing.
Instead it was one of the most played high level areas of the game!

If stagnation was a killer what about all those games which got their last update years ago and people still play.... I wonder why - because they're fun maybe.

To me the acid test is the following :
Given the AI changes does it make me more or less enclined to play through parts of the game which I've already done.
The answer for me is a resounding no.

People play games to have fun - pure and simple - if fun decreases, people will stop playing that game.
No one is aguing that change is bad - it's just that change which decreases fun is bad and change which increases fun is good....

We're on opposite sides of the fence - I think the AI change decreases fun and hence my enjoyment of the game and hence I'll play less and all this may lead to me not buying future GW products.
With every change there is a gamble, if anet sell more as a result of this - great for them, if they don't it was a bad choice, it may or may not work out.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 31, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

Sid - I have to disagree with you - if stagnation was a killer why aren't we up to our ears in threads like "change UW - it's boring!", "please nerf stuff because change is good!"

Pffft. The only people who frequent UW are there to get ectos. I doubt people want to change their routine in getting ectos. Hell, just look at the uproar when it WAS changed so they couldnt farm it easily.

Besides, you brought up only ONE aspect/area of the game. And go look at Sardelec Sanitarium and you'll see tons of threads for suggestions of change or additions.

And by the way, just because you see it as a "nerf" doesnt mean it is. That is all.

Blackest Rose · Oct 31, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Pffft. The only people who frequent UW are there to get ectos. I doubt people want to change their routine in getting ectos. Hell, just look at the uproar when it WAS changed so they couldnt farm it easily.

Doesn't UW have high level quests? It's it considered a high level area of the game?
Any area of the game can be considered farming - collecting orr emblems for halloween events is farming...

But let's say you're right for a minute....
It doesn't matter if people were farming there or not.
The point is that people were there to enjoy the game and have fun, if farming to some people is fun why kill it?

What if people don't play any more because farming isn't fun anymore?
Should we get rid of all those people? Anyone who goes to UW to farm ectos?

I guess it boils down to how many new players GW will get as a result of the AI update and how many they'll lose - we'll never know those numbers...

This is different from the AOE nerf - the AOE nerf did exactly what the update notes said that they would do - mosters move out of AOE. With this update many people including myself are seeing very strange behaviour from the monsters - and this does not mean better AI, just more frustration and less fun.

Prospero · Oct 31, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

We're on opposite sides of the fence - I think the AI change decreases fun and hence my enjoyment of the game and hence I'll play less and all this may lead to me not buying future GW products.

Well, I was about ready to quit the game b/c it was quite boring IMO. Now that the changes have been made to the AI, it is much more interesting and engaging. Indeed, I plan on continuing to purchase GW chapters. So,

, we cancel each other out.

Hand of Shiva · Oct 31, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

I'm not going to say this is a nerf, nor am I going to say is it the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can see that the devs wanted to make the game more challenging or as some would equate it as more fun.

My problem isn't really with the farming, because a true farmer will find other ways to farm and make their mountains of plat and laugh at people who can't do it. My problem is two fold. 1. I hate pvp, I try to stay away from it as much as possible (yeah I'm a noob I got over that title along time ago) and here they are attempting to push PvP into PvE, that's not my definition of fun by any stretch of the imagination. I like to hench alot of things, and I like to play monk while doing it (because mehnlo still can't seem to heal worth a bean) So heres my problem, the Devs didn't deem the monk worthy enough to get a Holy Snare skill and my henchies (the brains they are) don't carry one either. So what's a poor healbot to do?

My second problem is that chasing down these monsters are killing any chance of being able to get masters when the bonus is time based. I can go from one end of the map to the other zapping something for 4 hp with my wand stop go the other direction only to have the thing stab me in the back then run away again. Not fun, no sir not at all.

Like I said I have nothing against smarter AI. However when the AI turns out that AoE is dropped a quarter of the mobs go running for the kills, a quarter of them run 2 feet stop and start picking their virtual noses not doing anything, and the other half of them go haywire attacking randomly this is not smart AI. By watching the Semi final and Finals videos of GvG I'm fairly sure its not even smart PvP to do that.

Anyway, that's my two cents on how fun its gotten. Love Nightfall, love the artwork and the music, not crazy about some of the armor designs, and definitely not having fun trying to get my lvl 5 paragon to stop chasing the Corsair as he runs through a horde of skales.

Prospero · Oct 31, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Hand of Shiva: So you use mostly hench? Because I do too. I capped Hundered Blades for my warrior in Prophecies with hench...not to boast, but that's not an easy task. Working with henchmen is hard until you learn crowd control. If you truly use hench often, you should have a firm grasp of what it takes to control them and get them to do what you want. This AI update ups the bar a little bit, but by no means, makes it an undesirable experience.

0mar · Oct 31, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Nightfall's PvE is 10x better because of this update. I truly wish Factions PvE was as good as this, maybe I wouldn't have quit the game for 6 months.

Thom · Oct 31, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I like AI that stands there while I hack at them, but runs away when they see an unattributed firestorm. I like the fact that AI limits the number of efficient attack skills to maybe six. I like the fact that I can solo anyone who doesn't have enchantment removal without issue and I like being hopeless against mobs which have bad removal skills.

Observe dripping sarcasm.

Narutoscryed · Oct 31, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

Nightfall's PvE is 10x better because of this update. I truly wish Factions PvE was as good as this, maybe I wouldn't have quit the game for 6 months.

Can you give details on what you like about it? cause saying that you quit over factions pve.. i mean what did you dislike about that?

Aera Lure · Oct 31, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

I'm sure you agree with that and I know you think that things are too hard and frustrating. There's really no way to say anything to change your opinion about fun though. Either you think it's fun or not.

Its not particularly hard or overly frustrating. I'm just saying its less fun. It also considerably dampens any sense of progress or development PvE-wise to constantly be under the effects of downgradings and increased difficulty. I define that as not particularly fun, generally speaking, but have always adapted and come out on top irregardless of successive nerfs and updates in the past. My only point is to support the OP that it gets tiresome and makes one feel like they are always swimming upstream.

No matter. Its to each their own to decide if its fun for them or not and continues to be so. I dont think it was the point of this thread by the OP to convince anyone of one position or the other, nor was it mine.

Tozen · Oct 31, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

This is called kiting. Real players do it and monsters previously didn't.

The best way to counter it: attack your opponent from the behind and body block them. I like the new challenge a lot

0mar · Oct 31, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

Can you give details on what you like about it? cause saying that you quit over factions pve.. i mean what did you dislike about that?

The enemy density is way down. It's an encounter every 30-45 seconds instead of literally every 3 seconds. The Nightfall enemies are much more interesting as well with a lot more varied skillbars and packs. Factions was just Am Fah rangers putting spike traps every 15 paces. Factions wasn't particularly hard, it just took way more time getting to places than it should have. Plus, a lot of the quests were inside of giant mobs and required you to zone out, so you'd have to kill the same large density mobs 3 or 4 times just to get a quest done. Every once in a while, you'd get an ele boss that would basically one-shot your team with 400 damage lightning orbs. Then, on top of all that, you had to get 10K faction for each side to progress the story, and that's just where I stopped. It would have been an inordinate amount of grind to obtain 10k faction, more than I was willing to spend playing PvE at least. It didn't help that the story was absolutely dull and didn't try to involve the player at all. Nightfall involves the player by making him part of an order, has a very sensible enemy mob density and it just doesn't feel like grind.

I'm used to being kited, as I'm PvP primarily, so it doesn't concern me. It just means you got to stick in a snare or bring a water ele. I also shy away from the "nuke" spells, prefering to overload a single target very quickly. I also don't farm much either. I only have 4 PvE toons including my new dervish, and two of them already have 15k armor I want. I'm sure that I'll have enough for a 15k dervish outfit by the time I'm done with Nightfall.

Hand of Shiva · Nov 03, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Yes I do know how to work the Hench Ai, its never given me a problem however when I said level 5 paragon I meant my level 5 paragon. Now that I have to worry about everything scattering to the wind I can't tell if that corsair is running or just moving to cast at me again. But thats all in the past now I just stand there like a dummy and spam chants and shouts like every good paragon

.

Anyway for those of you who keep comparing this to PvP and well PvP people bring snares and slow hexs and your grandmothers oatmeal to the table have you ever considered that in PvP when the other team kites you their not kiting you into another 10 to 20 mobs? or kiting you into a mob full of level 23 to 24 monsters?

Also as an odd occurence I keep hearing everyone saying that the mobs all rush for the tank now, however while playing with my heroes and henchies I find that my level 20 Koss isn't the target nor is the level 20 Devona hench the target of all the mobs, they all seem to go straight for the level 20 Menhlo character and they'll all go to town on him first. I'm not exactly sure whats going on with that but it seems counter to what everyone else is going on about.

Also going backwards in the chapters I find that the mobs in both Factions and Prophecies have a greater propensity to scatter then Nightfall mobs. At least the propensity to scatter for the hills on the other side of the map that is. Can anyone else confirm this?

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 03, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hand of Shiva

Anyway for those of you who keep comparing this to PvP and well PvP people bring snares and slow hexs and your grandmothers oatmeal to the table have you ever considered that in PvP when the other team kites you their not kiting you into another 10 to 20 mobs? or kiting you into a mob full of level 23 to 24 monsters?

Then DON'T kite into other mobs. It's not like they drop you in the middle of surrounding mobs when you do a mission. You approach from the side/angle that's least likely to aggro other groups and gives you room to maneuver.

Hand of Shiva · Nov 03, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Sid, you realize that this update effects all 3 chapters right? including that crap quartered rat maze known as factions? Henchies are going to kite after targets no matter what you do once you get into the fray. I have enough trouble watching for what just ran behind me much less what Talon is chasing after while Devona is off beating on something else. People need to understand that this is PvE, not PvP you can't hit the talk button and tell Talon "Dude stop before you aggro that group of.... nevermind."
You know somethings a little funny too when Gaile opens a thread about the AI and then says nothing has changed with the AI despite the update saying there were changes to the AI.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...34#post4484234

This seems to say their aware of something not kosher and their working on it. So there might be a change in the works... might be being the keywords.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10071034

garethporlest18 · Nov 03, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I'm telling you flatout that right now, the cause of most problems and the fix to them would be to....upgrade the human AI to something that is suitable for fighting monsters above level 15.

WasAGuest · Nov 03, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Apparently, according to the posts from Gaile in gwonline, the improved and praised AI changes we loved around 10/25 or so, was actually a bug that Anet "fixed" around 10/31 - which everyone is disliking... perhaps, Anet has their priorities backwards in the AI field when a bug is highly praised and their "corrected version" is hated?

A direct quote for those who are not members there:

Gaile -

Thank you, nudge, for a well-presented report on this issue. I am going to post here and may also paste over on the other thread, as well. I want everyone to read this carefully, and to consider this comes directly from Mike O'Brien, who leads the design team, and who would be an excellent source for information about "who updated what, and when, and in what way." So here's some information for you:

1. The monster AI targeting has used a system which remained unchanged from the release of Prophecies (04/28/05) until just prior to release of Nightfall, specifically 10/25/06.
2. On 10/25/06, we accidentially introduced a bug which made monsters choose targets almost at random.
3. On 10/31/06, we fixed that bug, and now the AI targeting system once again works the same way it has ever since the release of Prophecies.

The true AI change on 10/25/06--which some players may be finding unsettling or annoying and may be calling a "bug"--is a change to melee monsters that causes them now to back off. That is new; that is intended; and that would not be likely to be changed. But in all honesty, the manner in which monsters choose targets, which seems to be the major complaint in forum threads, has not changed since the release of Prophecies (aside from that brief period when the bug was in place).

With that in mind, we will continue reading the specific instances of concern about the AI, but I hope that this overview will help keep the discussion to points of actual error, and will not include reports that are based on faulty perceptions or expectations. Please also remember that the melee monster change is not an error at all.

Lastly, the Henchmen's odd "start/stop" on the skill casting will be fixed in the next Live Build. I think that'll go out soon, most likely today.
__________________
Gaile Gray
Community Relations Manager
ArenaNet
www.guildwars.com

/end quote

source link :here

Marc0 · Nov 03, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

@ those that called this a rant, the OP was not ranting, he stated his views & observation. You people just miss the point that not everyone is a farmer...but it IS still nice to be able to play the game without having to chase mobs that may be running you into another patrol or something...

And I think you guys are really missing the point the the Mobs aggro US in most cases, then THEY run...that's some weak sauce for you. Aggro in this game is really lame to start with compared to most other games....there is no taunting, detaunts or real way to manage aggro, nor does aggro have any real logic. To me, if the mob runs away, he should simply de-aggro since he already knows you can whoop it's butt....if he's a coward & he runs, he should not re-enter the battle. At least then it would be a little realistic.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 03, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hand of Shiva

Sid, you realize that this update effects all 3 chapters right? including that crap quartered rat maze known as factions? Henchies are going to kite after targets no matter what you do once you get into the fray. I have enough trouble watching for what just ran behind me much less what Talon is chasing after while Devona is off beating on something else. People need to understand that this is PvE, not PvP you can't hit the talk button and tell Talon "Dude stop before you aggro that group of.... nevermind."
You know somethings a little funny too when Gaile opens a thread about the AI and then says nothing has changed with the AI despite the update saying there were changes to the AI.

It doesnt matter what Chapter you're playing, there's always a way to pull and then kite enemies into a better position for you to fight them. You keep telling me that I should try to understand that this is PVE and not PVP...why? I play PVE more than PVP. You trying to discredit me by calling me a PVP'er just aint going to work.

Also, if you're having that much trouble with warriors running off to aggro, then simply dont bring warrior henchies for that mission/quest. Sometimes what works for one area does not work for another. It's called adjusting and adapting.