Curse

Hand of Shiva · Nov 03, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Omega I'm not exactly sure what your pointing to in that link. I already sent a bug complaint in and gotten no word back from ANet about it. Then again they never get back to me on those kind of things so I'm not expecting much. But if someone in the community could tell me if the Insignias overwrite runes that would be nice.

Also whats the deal with the Vitae rune? it gives +10 health but thats less then the minor rune of Vigor.... does that mean the Vitae runes are stackable? (Not that i'd slap 5 vitae runes on when I can get away with a Superior Vigor rune and a butt load of minor runes to up my skills).

Gigashadow · Nov 03, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Fow armor has always been obsolete because it has no underlying value in the first place.

By this logic, everything other than 1.5k Drok's armor has "no underlying value", which is clearly false. The fact that people are willing to spend the time getting it and paying for it shows that it has value. It also has the same stats as any other armor, and therefore has the same utility value. To claim that flashy looking armor has "no underlying value" is simply absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

It's 15k armor that has an ecto cost of a few generations of children. It's flashy, nothing more.

Sure, and so is 15k armor, 10k armor, 5k, armor, and basically everything other than baseline Droks armor. You seem to reserve your contempt for people with FoW armor (and no, I don't have any), while ignoring the fact that the difference between spending gobs of money on FoW flashy armor vs the also nice looking 15k/10k/5k armor sets, is only a difference of degree, not of principle.

While you might want to live in some idealized gameworld where everyone does the "right thing" and wears only the cheapest 1.5k Drok's, because it would be "stupid" to spend more money (whether 5k, 10k, 15k, or 150k) on armor that just looks cool, rest assured (and you can prove this to yourself by just taking a look around at the avatars in game), the rest of the players in the game do not live, or want to live, in that type of gameworld.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Your mistake was expecting it to maintain its value over time, when in fact that would never be the case.

I don't see any claims from anyone in this thread that anyone expected it to maintain its value forever, as it's obvious that new stuff is always being added to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

You say it's obsolete now, but you're missing that it was obsolete long before Nightfall had beta tests. You paid a stupidly large amount of gold for an armor specifically designed to look flashy. You weren't buying it for the stats, so how can you say it's now obsolete because of the stats?

This is an unsupported statement which happens to be false anyway. It was not obselete before Nightfall because it had the same stats as everything else. Also, people did buy it for the stats; stats that are the same as everything else. You would not see so many people wearing FoW armor if it had inferior stats to regular armor. Now that FoW (and other pre-NF armors) are inferior stat-wise (depending on how you want to configure your armor), they are obselete at the stat level. Whether they are obselete at the looks level to each successive type of armor that comes out in GW, is a subjective decision that FoW-wearers will have to make for themselves.

Oh a GW forum · Nov 03, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

As for people saying you can just over-write insignias... That's fine if you use the cheap crap kind that is pretty much worthless anyways, but I guarnetee insignias like Radiant, Survivor, and especially warrior will not stay 200-300 ea... that is unless Anet puts a cap on the prices. Just look at popular minor runes... Even before the demand went up because of heros, Minor vigor was 1k ea and warrior minor tactics and strength were around 1k ea, and some other were as well. Minor runes are easy as hell to farm, but when there is a high demand, "saturation" isn't going to do shit.

Further, if people are constantly over-writing their own insignias, that is going to drive supply DOWN, and when supply is down and demand is constant, that means price goes up. Therefore, simply overwriting your insignias, is NOT a viable solution.

Seriously, you can't win here. Insignias are dumb and need to be re-thought.

thelessa · Nov 03, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I say bring back the Factions type armor so we have a choice of type of armor with the different looks, rather then have the insignias, and maybe raise the prices to Factions armor pricing.

Then for each char. give them a weapons and armor locker

DarkWasp · Nov 03, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

You guy's aren't getting it.

Factions type armor:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. I better buy another set!"

15k Chest with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with ice mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

TOTAL(120k + resourcesx2)

Now with the Insignias:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. Lemme go switch that real quick."

WORST CASE SCENARIO (Insignias climb to 2000)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
(8k)

TOTAL(68k + resouces)

Make sense now?

(When the economy blanances out, I expect the Insignias not to exceed 500 gold)

CyberNigma · Nov 03, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum

As for people saying you can just over-write insignias... That's fine if you use the cheap crap kind that is pretty much worthless anyways, but I guarnetee insignias like Radiant, Survivor, and especially warrior will not stay 200-300 ea... that is unless Anet puts a cap on the prices. Just look at popular minor runes... Even before the demand went up because of heros, Minor vigor was 1k ea and warrior minor tactics and strength were around 1k ea, and some other were as well. Minor runes are easy as hell to farm, but when there is a high demand, "saturation" isn't going to do shit.

Further, if people are constantly over-writing their own insignias, that is going to drive supply DOWN, and when supply is down and demand is constant, that means price goes up. Therefore, simply overwriting your insignias, is NOT a viable solution.

Seriously, you can't win here. Insignias are dumb and need to be re-thought.

as long as they stay less than 15k+materials each then it's cheaper than crafting a new piece of 15k armour. I don't have 15k armour, so for me as long as it's cheaper than 1k+materials then I make out better than having to re-craft it. That is, of course, if I need to change it.

of course for a new set, then yes it may indeed cost more if you aren't planning on changing your stats. I guess the break-even price is 500gp for each insignia since previous armours were 1.5k instead of 1k. for the higher end armours, well, you're paying a premium for looks anyway.

the guy right above me hit it I think.. good job on the numbers. I think some people are just wanting either free or nothing at all. there's the middle ground you show (not free, but still cheaper). of course all this really only applies to 5/10/15k armour if the insignias go up in price. for it to be viable to 1k armour they need to stay down.

good display.

in other words, if the prized insignias are 900gp then you still save 100gp+materials over crafting a new piece of 1k (Elona) armour, and over 14k over a new piece of 15k Elona armour... you win, regardless... the old way would cost you the full price of the new armour. just because it's not free doesn't mean you can't get a good deal and save...

boxterduke · Nov 03, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

You guy's aren't getting it.

Factions type armor:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. I better buy another set!"

15k Chest with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with ice mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

TOTAL(120k + resourcesx2)

Now with the Insignias:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. Lemme go switch that real quick."

WORST CASE SCENARIO (Insignias climb to 2000)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
(8k)

TOTAL(68k + resouces)

Make sense now?

(When the economy blanances out, I expect the Insignias not to exceed 500 gold)

QFT
I just came to basically say that same thing and it was already posted.

I have to admit that I didnot get the insignia thing at first, I was like ok so they gave us upgrades for blank armors instead of getting the armor ready to go from the get go.

But to think of it, it makes things way better.
Armors with runes/insignias in them drop like crazy.
After a couple of weeks, the trader would have them all and they will be cheap.
I think its a great system for people with limited space or money that do not want to buy a set of armor for each condition.

Although that wont stop us from buying nice pretty new armor to strut our stuff in it

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 03, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Its kind of weak that you can buy them in Cantha and Tyria yet you can't apply them to any armor made there. At least thats what GuildWiki said. I'm going to test it with collector armor and report back.

Moa Bird Cultist · Nov 03, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

It is a very nice shrubbery- uh, I mean system, however, there is one small problem:

We are no long- no, no, it's that radiant insignias currently sell for upwards of 5k. This isn't good, as even for a person with just nightfall, to kit out all 4 characters + heroes with radiant insignia will cost them 1500k. taken to extreme levels - I have 22 characters*, as an example - 8,250,000g would be needed to kit out each of them with radiant insignia - an insane amount, I'm sure everyone will agree.

The current situation seems to be that class specific stocks of insignia are improving, but multi class stocks are still hard to come by. It will improve, I'm sure of it, but at the moment, it is unworkable, as displayed above. NOBODY has 8,250k, and even if they did, there's no way they'd spend it like that.

*1: I'm crazy, 2: Theres no way I can be bothered to take all of them through nightfall.

Hand of Shiva · Nov 03, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I look at the example above and who the hell is crazy enough to buy 15k armor for farming purposes... The only people who are going to buy sets of 15k armor for farming purposes are those who can and want to spend the money, after all 15k armor is ANets gold sink. There in if your insignias increase to 2k a piece then you go out and buy lets say 1.5k armor well you not only saved yourself a bit of cash on the first go but oh look you won't have to buy another set of 2k insignias when you decide that farming ice imps is boring. Come on people don't look at it from just one side when you through out your examples.

Is anyone else a little fustrated that while we have to provide for the armor and weapons of our heroes that their not bringing anything to the party to support themselves fincially? I'm willing to bet Koss has a few insignia drops squirrelled away all to himself. No better then a corsair indeed! SHARE THE WEALTH! Alright so its not really that bad but if we have to shell out massive amounts of gold to keep them equipped with insignias then why are we still getting shafted on their drops? Henchs I can understand, they bring their own beer to the party so they get to keep what ever is theres but these heroes.... like that uncle that won't leave and keeps mooching I say!

Pkest · Nov 03, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

Now with the Insignias:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. Lemme go switch that real quick."

WORST CASE SCENARIO (Insignias climb to 2000)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
(8k)

TOTAL(68k + resouces)

Make sense now?

(When the economy blanances out, I expect the Insignias not to exceed 500 gold)

Actually the worst case scenario should include losing all your armor and runes to the salvage and being left with only the insignias you wanted to change in the first place. Unless you are just going to overwrite the insignias which would get so expensive you'll end up having to own multiple sets anyway.

The only way insignias make sense is if there are lots of different skins like in Prophecies. So far Nightfall appears to have about the same number of skins as Factions so there is absolutely no benefit currently to insignias.

Oh a GW forum · Nov 03, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

You guy's aren't getting it.

Factions type armor:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. I better buy another set!"

15k Chest with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with ice mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with ice mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

TOTAL(120k + resourcesx2)

Now with the Insignias:
15k Chest with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Legs with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Gloves with +energy mod (15k +resources)
15k Boots with +energy mod (15k +resources)
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. Lemme go switch that real quick."

WORST CASE SCENARIO (Insignias climb to 2000)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
(8k)

TOTAL(68k + resouces)

Make sense now?

(When the economy blanances out, I expect the Insignias not to exceed 500 gold)

That's fine for a one time change... the system is still flawed nonethe less. And for someone who has a set of 15k money ususaully isn't an issue... There was a time when we all struggled for 1.5k armor though, (unless you got lucky and had a bunch of black dye drops or something). Should we just kick people who haven't been farming for months in the face? Insignias should be readily available and dirt cheap. Relying on a player controlled market offers neither of those.

I'm just thankful I have factions and prophecies and could get nice +energy armors for my casters over there... shelling out an extra 20-25k for Elonian-only players is ridiculous.

Marc0 · Nov 03, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I agree that insignias should be provided WITH the cost of the armor just as before or be very cheap, have a fixed price & have a NPC vendor that never runs out. Pretty sad that my very first 15k armor for my warrior is the Sunspear Elite & half the time I have to take it off because my 1.5k Canthan is better.....I think it's a good effort, just poor execution. I think this should have only been implemented in PvP toons & they should have made the Nightfall armor just like the Factions....I was SO happy when I got to Kaineng & was able to get a variety of armor mods & yet still have a uniform set of armor that went together. There are only a few armors that are able to mix & still look like it goes together.....but, if you are going to keep the Insignias....let us be able to remove & replace them as needed with no chance of ruining our armor. If it's just an 'insignia'....it's just like a patch or something sewn onto the armor which would not tear it up if you took it off....if you made it like this, I would even be willing to pay a substantial amount more for the insignias because I would just keep the ones I needed & have the flexibility to change my setup for different types of mobs/pvp.

Clawdius_Talonious · Nov 03, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum

Insignias should be readily available and dirt cheap. Relying on a player controlled market offers neither of those..

QFT, I was thinking about picking up a couple (literally) of shoddy insignias for my warrior hero's armor while I wait for the decent ones to become available, and the little fella trying to sell em quoted me one price on them, and when we agreed he tried to sell them to me for that much apiece, when I asked how much he wanted for both. So I cancelled the trade and I guess I'll have to wait a month or more to get any insignias for my heroes. I have to get 126 heroes insignas if I want to have the potential to use any hero on any of my 9 characters... That's 630 insignias, minimum, if I want all my heroes to have insignias. That's between 630k and 6.3 million on todays market depending on what insignias I want, that's just outrageous. Especially considering I didn't have the foresight to farm up 6.3 million gold in the last eighteen months, I didn't think that the words "casual" and "rich" went hand in hand. In the past I've been able to be comfortable @ about 20k, getting more when I saw something I wanted that cost more. Now farming is more difficult and I have more to spend my money on, not to mention I'd like to get 10 Radiant insignias for my monk and necro elonian armors, so lets bump up the inscription count to 640.

I guess I can roll PVP characters instead of using my PVE characters, I don't have much choice if I truely want to be competitive, my necro would be at a severe disadvantage without insignias on himself or any of his heroes...

Sanji · Nov 05, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Player run economies are made of unstable supply, price gouging, and failure.

JoeKnowMo · Nov 06, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

You guy's aren't getting it.

Factions type armor:
<snip>
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. I better buy another set!"
<snip>
(60k + resources)

TOTAL(120k + resourcesx2)

Now with the Insignias:
<snip>
(60k + resources)

Then suddenly you go Ice Impin.
"Oh! I like my armor! BUT, my build requires cold damage protection. Lemme go switch that real quick."

WORST CASE SCENARIO (Insignias climb to 2000)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
Ice mod (2k)
(8k)

TOTAL(68k + resouces)

Make sense now?

(When the economy blanances out, I expect the Insignias not to exceed 500 gold)

Most players won't be buying multiple armor sets. At most, they'll buy extra headpieces and gloves/boots to change builds around.

So insignias become a pricey proposition for the majority of players since they would just buy the 1.5k +energy armor in Factions/Proph. But now we have to pay a large amount for radiant insignias, which I don't think will go as low as the 500g u expect. If the majority of players are buying 5 radiant insignias per character, the price will be way above that of a minor vigor (which is 1 per character).

Why not have the armor crafters allow you to choose a free insignia for each piece when you craft your armor? Then if you want to change things later, fine, shell out for an insignia. However, the way it is now, your first set of armor costs way more than it did before the introduction of insignias.

Cirian · Nov 06, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

I think the worst thing at the moment is that it's tough to create a budget suit of armour.

If you want a suit of Druid's for your ranger for instance, you have to buy a stack of Radiant insignias for your suit - and because all classes use the same insignia for +energy AND they're really popular, they're expensive. That means even basic sets of NF armour can be expensive for what I used to consider basic bonusses!

Also I agree that salvaging insignias and runes off your own customised armour and weapons is a broken mechanic. 50% chance to destroy the piece? Fine for pulling something off an armour drop, but no way am I taking even a 1% chance with any piece of 15k. It's a really cool system in theory, and I'll give Anet credit for adding it, but it doesn't give anyone any freedoms to switch insignias in and out when there's a chance to loose a really expensive piece of kit.

The best use I have for it is on Hero armour, which is indestructible - I swap runes and insignias out all the time on them, but I wouldn't dare try that on my armour - I've already lost 2 15^50 collector bows swapping strings and I gave up on the system after that.

I think if Anet changed it so that only armour drops (or uncustomised items maybe) had a chance to break - that would be a better system.

arcanemacabre · Nov 06, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I think if Anet changed it so that only armour drops (or uncustomised items maybe) had a chance to break - that would be a better system.

That is ingenious! I vote /signed for that! All non-customized items have a chance to break, while customized items can be swapped out like crazy. With that, we need a way to customize shields and off-hands, as well.

Angel Develin · Nov 06, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

I love the new armor system, i also found most of the insignias for my hero's and my self.
the prices are always high at the start of a new chapter but the drop rate is this time very high, even when i do a quest with henche I always find insignias.
I also want to see my old armors updated into this system, that would be great, specially for my fow and other 15k sets.

Hyunsai · Nov 06, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Minor vigor is around 2K now, no?