Curse

Jetdoc · Nov 02, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

This game is called Guildwars right? so get a guild dont play with random pugs.

Excellent point. Because of the lack of a better PuG forming system, and the limited henchmen/hero AI, this may be where A-Net is pushing us - to join guilds to find adequate teammates to tackle the hardest areas of the game. Heck, they did that with Elite missions in Factions (make them only accessable to guild groups that hold the top towns), so this could be a logical extension of that intent...

Dragasa · Nov 02, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

just a little something for the people who keep saying "adapt, PVE is so easy your a loser if you can't do it". have you ever considered that some people who play the game have disabilities? that they can only adapt so much and still be able to play the game?

Tommy · Nov 02, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I guess this is where we tend to disagree.

Yes, most of us would have LOVED if A-Net had implemented a better way to find parties. Absolutely, positively no argument there.

Yet, to extrapolate their failure to do so to the concept of "A-Net really wants us to play this game in either Single or Dual player format" is a bit too much.

On the contrary, I believe that A-Net really, really, really wanted to introduce the concept of heroes, but realized that their introduction could be interpreted (as you've done above) to mean that they almost DISCOURAGE group play.

That is why I believe that they made the henchmen/hero AI changes they have so far. Could they be improved? Absolutely. Will A-Net buff them to the point where they actually will perform better than your "low bar" average PuG? I'm skeptical.

They realize (as much as we do) that the human interaction facet of the game is a part that they don't want to limit to PvP. The introduction of heroes (e.g. look a Heroes Ascent) has the potential to almost completely eliminate that facet of the game out of PvE.

that is what happened when there aint any elistist pvers around, what anet can do is make the pve uber easy or do something to get back the elistist pvers. By destorying the item market and 90% of the elite pvers quit GW to play something else, there aint any good pvers around anymore to help out the bad ones. now see who anet is pissing off

! the Heroes wont cut it imao. The problem is the players not the game. with the new AI update thsi game is still far from hard imao.
image 1000 to 3000 TOP players with BEST IN GAME ITEMS spening 8+ hours killing one uber boss who can blow 300+ of you off in a single blow. These players have to team up in forum and practice for a couple of days before they encounter the boss. how can what you guys are fighting be hard compare to them? Some mmorph require their players to play full time in order to beat the boss<no work just play game>, it require professional training<they got coach! who actually train them to kill the boss>, and decent teamwork. you dont have a top guild to play with you? too bad you dont kill the boss. I think that Heroes are for early mission and quest but certainly not for the late ones.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Just because I have better henchies/hero's doesn't mean I'll stop playing with people. I'll use them when I want to go fight in a big area or something or want to do a mission when no one is around. So they can make them a tiny bit better (or include more hero slots!) than they are now and the Co-Op with other people will still be happening I think.

Mainly because you get better/more drops when you have people on your team.

I don't want to join a more popular guild (more people=bad for health), because a lot of non Guild Wars discussions and immaturity or to much maturity goes on, I like it where I am now and don't want to change, so I guess since the majority of players like being "cookie cutters" themselves to society and not being themselves as a whole get the better end of the bargain apart from the social outcasts such as myself. But that's how it is. I like the AI and I don't, challenge is good to the point where it isn't over challenging. Giving me 1 or 2 more hero slots would fix all my problems, for now I have to figure out a way to have interrupts and support and 2 hero healers in my team. No henchies suck at that, we have what? One interrupter that has two of them. Sorry that doesn't help out as much as a hero Dom mesmer would, but damn I don't have room for him.

Lagg · Nov 02, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

I agree with you completely lunksunkunk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunksunkunk

human AI

Especially that part.

No, but seriously, the old PvE was great. Why change it?

aron searle · Nov 02, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Of course not. Tanks don't kill; tanks...tank!

Tanks have guns.

Quote:

Unless there is nothing to tank, which in turn is forcing me to play Hammer. I don't have a problem with Warriors being damage dealers, but then why provide them with tank skills in the first place?

So let me get this straight, your job as a warrior is to get in the middle of it, bashing there monks,creating pressure and you need me to explain why you need armour to do that.

Quote:

What use has this skill now?

About as much use as it ever was to a good team, none.

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When I'm bored of tank/nuke/heal, guess what I'll do? I'll play a different game.

ill tell you what sell your computer but keep the keyboard, there you can re-creat tanking anytime you want by pressing c space go, why go to the effort of buying a game to re-creat that. :P

Guild wars is trying to be clever and different, and you dont want that, fair enough, i however like a game that requires some level of attention.

Quote:

The simpler the things are, the more accessible it is to people. Nobody understands or even wants to understand the concept of applying pressure, kiting, etc, because it should not be required in PvE.

Sorry but i dont buy the argument, "most people are stupid so lets make a game for stupid people", im not stupid, i dont want a stupid game.

WasAGuest · Nov 02, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

well it is the late area

so i assumed that you have what it takes to get there

? btw you shouldn't be using hencheis and heroes in the late area imao, go find someone good to play with ya

as for most ppl why dont you think of this? your warrior run into mobs, dealign damage, while your water ele and cripple ranger stop the mobs from getting closed to your group, your warrior use bull's charge to knock them down. your assin run in and cast ward against foes to slwo them down, and mesner use hex to slow them down too.. this change will make the pve more challenge

the AI seems more like human for me, it is like if you see somebody trying to kill you and your teammates, you will probably run to call for reinforcement<aggro another even bigger group of mobs>, what we can do is cripple them so they can't run away.

I assume you quoted the wrong person, I never mentioned any of the above. I was refering to general AI improvements as a whole. Not only towards end game nor in turning the entire game into a single PvP match.

Also, why should players be forced to PuG in the later areas of the game. I would love to know why we are using and equiping the heroes throughout the entire campaign only to not be able to use them because the AI for them is sub-par vs the mob AI. That's something that needs fixing by Anet, not worked around by players.

Running for reinforcements is dead on, and something I am currently loving... when done by human AI. Creature AI should not have that knowledge to "run" for, rather a "howl" or other sound related call for help would make the creature act like a creature.

The AI needs to be made "real". All the devs need do is look at nature. Creatures rule and survive by strength. When they lack the strength, they use numbers. Humans rule by strength of mind and the tools we use. Put a man in an arena with a lion without a tool (weapon) and he's a lion snack. Put that same man with a shield and spear and he now has a fighting chance against that lion.
Put that man against another man armed or not, the out come will be messured in both skill and strength.

Apply that simple structure to the game world (PvE game world) and we can start to have a winner.

Lastly, before anyone mis-understands me. I am for making the PvE more difficult, far more difficult. I believe however the way to go about this is a far move away from PvPish balanced group build ups. Making creatures more self reliant (as mentioned above with a few examples), and human AI act and react correctly and less scripted - as in the second the AI sees a monk, they bee-line for it, completely leaving their own back line exposed.
The AI needs to be damage and threat aware. The fact that they now do not flee an AoE that does no damage is a step in the right direction.. when it was working. The fact that the mob monks flee when attacked is a step in the right direction as well, but it should understand it's surroundings and not run away, rather attempt to run you into it's warriors or other front line tanks. That should be simple battle tactics that the human AI should know, and should be tougher and improved the further into the game we go.

As for hero and hench AI. They shoud always be a step above the mob AI. Always. They are "heroes" after all, not less than common criminals or nameless grunts on the field.

Tommy · Nov 02, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

what i think the problem is the player base, most ppl who play or buy gw are really casual causalist, many of them are nto even 18. alot of ppl in my guild are like 13 to 15. what do you want from a bunch of kids? many of you might argue that adults shouldn't be playing mmorph, but hell i never play any game when i was back in high school. Now i got a little bit more free time playing game when i am in the office

<now i am reading the forum while i am doing books for my clients

> from what i know most ppl in wow are in late 20s or early 30s. they have the skills and resources to play. man our fellow players need to really work out abit. The new AI would force the bad ones out and bring in the good ones. all i have to say is that if you want to complete the late mission and area, YOU HAVE TO JOIN A GOOD GUILD. if you want to play with just heroes, i prefer you to play singel player game not massive players

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I agree, it's completely rediculous now. If a group of 8 level 20's are dyying with those dumb insects in marga coast, then something HAS to be done. The AI now is pitiful, casters are the worse, canceling till thier e is gone, warriors that have actually stood around for an entire battle, monks that hardly ever heal! I have my hero windows up and dunkoro can be running around with a full e bar and the party is dropping dead, mostly due to him running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

Whatever they did to the ai, it's so bad now, it's pathetic. Prior to this update it was tolerable since the focus of aggro were the higher AL targets, so if your a monk you could just worry about keeping the tank/para/ranger (in order) alive and let the AI cast/cancel and still manage to kill mobs. The hench controls are now really pathetic as well. Before you could flag and they would actually disengage and go, now they stop attacking/healing for a good 20 seconds till they finally start to move (if they aren't dead by then).

When NF was first released the AI was pretty decent, although nominaly buggy, but now it's like playing with a bunch of AFK noobs. It's very sad and there is no strategy that we as players can impliment to correct this horrible AI issue. This needs to be fixed asap, even if it means rolling the AI back to the release version.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Not all of us are that bad Tommy, it's just some of us don't want to be playing with humans all the time, but still want to play the same game. Anet has made this possible, but it's tedious, because of the way the hero/hench AI is handled.

The only problem for me is in the higher areas and I suppose it should be. Still I would like to see 1-2 more slots for hero's as that would give a big advantage and all you'd have to do is use the right skills. It'd still be a challenge, but you'd have more of a defense against it. I'd also like to mention that the Desolation wasn't that easy either. Then again we aggroed 3 groups plus a desert wurm and were fighting over 20 enemies so it was likely people were going to die.

Since having the monk not kite gets him killed and having him kite gets you killed, what you have to do is stop the creature chasing him. Have a support ele or mesmer or necro..blind, degen, hex blind or hex slow his attacks or movement down. That was to gabrial.

Another tip is, have your support guy, target that main person and keep them under control so the monk doesnt' have to kite as much and can heal without being killed himself. Monks should only kite when they are taking damage from the melee not when it's coming.

Tommy · Nov 02, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

i think that anet needs more time to work on the new AI. just give them some more time. Every 6 months for a new chapter seems a rush for me. they can make money from selling special in game pet and dance. or special skin armors like maplestory

they dont have to sell new chapters every 6 months imao. they seriously need more time to work on the new AI
and to Gare, why dont you consider to team up some good players at weekend for the late missions

? yeah not of you are bad. i know

but you can't dissagree that most of GW players are bad, i think they got too many characters they play on, they need to focus more on their main char.. imao you need to spend atleast 1 year to really understand your char. having 10 to 20 diff professions are not a good idea.

0mar · Nov 02, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I think the real problem is that people haven't had the need to try. Before, you could bring the worst skills possible in an instance and still roll all the groups like they weren't even there. Now, you actually need to outfit every character to have a real role and have people know what they are doing. Chasing after a running monster is asinine. Snare it somehow and then do your damage. AoE skills actually need some tactics and strategy to be effective. See the monsters in a bad position? Body block them/snare them and then slap down your favorite AoE spell. Bring Aegis/Wards/Warrior-hate too to help the survivability of your party. The game has now progressed to where you can't just grab a tank, two echo nukers, two monks and just roll the groups.

I haven't had a single problem yet in Nightfall regarding the monster AI. I've pretty much hero-way'ed my way through it so far (just me + friend). It's a matter of getting good builds, good tactics and energy management.

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

that is what happened when there aint any elistist pvers around, what anet can do is make the pve uber easy or do something to get back the elistist pvers. By destorying the item market and 90% of the elite pvers quit GW to play something else, there aint any good pvers around anymore to help out the bad ones. now see who anet is pissing off

! the Heroes wont cut it imao. The problem is the players not the game. with the new AI update thsi game is still far from hard imao.
image 1000 to 3000 TOP players with BEST IN GAME ITEMS spening 8+ hours killing one uber boss who can blow 300+ of you off in a single blow. These players have to team up in forum and practice for a couple of days before they encounter the boss. how can what you guys are fighting be hard compare to them? Some mmorph require their players to play full time in order to beat the boss<no work just play game>, it require professional training<they got coach! who actually train them to kill the boss>, and decent teamwork. you dont have a top guild to play with you? too bad you dont kill the boss. I think that Heroes are for early mission and quest but certainly not for the late ones.

It's not even about the later areas with this AI, not sure why the op is focused on that and I'm just talking marga coast with a ranger +heros and hench for skill cap runs, pretty simple and low level stuff. The hench AI is pitiful, they die on NOTHING level 16-20 enemies, cancel almost every skill, stand in clumps to get nuked, completely ignore target calls and run off like little girls into another mob (flags or not). Forget about doing any caping in higher level areas, or trying missions, or even doing anything without a full party of GOOD PVE human players. The hench/heros right now are almost completely useless.

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

i think that anet needs more time to work on the new AI. just give them some more time. Every 6 months for a new chapter seems a rush for me. they can make money from selling special in game pet and dance. or special skin armors like maplestory

they dont have to sell new chapters every 6 months imao. they seriously need more time to work on the new AI
and to Gare, why dont you consider to team up some good players at weekend for the late missions

? yeah not of you are bad. i know

but you can't dissagree that most of GW players are bad, i think they got too many characters they play on, they need to focus more on their main char.. imao you need to spend atleast 1 year to really understand your char. having 10 to 20 diff professions are not a good idea.

The release version of AI was usable and quite affective, even in the higher level areas.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

i think that anet needs more time to work on the new AI. just give them some more time. Every 6 months for a new chapter seems a rush for me. they can make money from selling special in game pet and dance. or special skin armors like maplestory

they dont have to sell new chapters every 6 months imao. they seriously need more time to work on the new AI
and to Gare, why dont you consider to team up some good players at weekend for the late missions

? yeah not of you are bad. i know

but you can't dissagree that most of GW players are bad, i think they got too many characters they play on, they need to focus more on their main char.. imao you need to spend atleast 1 year to really understand your char. having 10 to 20 diff professions are not a good idea.

Oh I have friends that I go with, and my lady when she plays. I'm not upset to much about the AI, some things are a little shifty but I can deal with most things. Me and a warrior friend took out Domain of Secrets over a 2 hour span of much Dunkoro dying. It was a bit harder and took longer than it usually does but wasn't totally impossible. Granted most players don't have time or patience to deal with that, so I'm thinking Anet should take that into consideration.

I agree though that a lot of GW players are bad, FoW has gotten much worse over the past 3 months. I've been to down there many times in the past 2 months before NF and it was horrible a lot of the time. As for needing a year, I can learn the character fast, and I have time in a day to play it usually to learn it, but yeah most people don't or aren't as intelligent as others.

I'm saying one easy thing that would make at least my world in Guild Wars a lot funner/easier is to add more hero slots. Only 1 or 2, maybe all 8 who knows, I'm sure at least one person agrees with me. The Hero AI with skills you pick for them, while not as good as people all the time, are a lot better than henchy skills. If I was able to have 2 support, 2 monks at least I'd be able to handle things much easier. Yes you can team with other people to get their heros, but they aren't always there. Like I said sometimes I just want to be alone, playing the game still but by myself with henchies and change like that isn't ubalancing really. At least give it a try Anet.

The only reason I like playing with people, is for the drops whether they are mine or theirs I like to see what drops. I'm also a very social anti-social person so it's nice to have people to talk to.

Gabrial, it was unbalanced and while fun for a time, got boring because nothing was a challenge. Being one to get mad and complain when there is a challenge, I can say that's what is happening a lot in this thread. Me and Yun have seen these monsters get smarter and the henchies stay the same though and now it's a burdensome challenge. Challenging enemies are good when you can provide a decent fight, it's hard in tough areas to do that now and I don't think it should be. The problem isn't the enemy AI, it's the human AI.

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

I think the real problem is that people haven't had the need to try. Before, you could bring the worst skills possible in an instance and still roll all the groups like they weren't even there. Now, you actually need to outfit every character to have a real role and have people know what they are doing. Chasing after a running monster is asinine. Snare it somehow and then do your damage. AoE skills actually need some tactics and strategy to be effective. See the monsters in a bad position? Body block them/snare them and then slap down your favorite AoE spell. Bring Aegis/Wards/Warrior-hate too to help the survivability of your party. The game has now progressed to where you can't just grab a tank, two echo nukers, two monks and just roll the groups.

I haven't had a single problem yet in Nightfall regarding the monster AI. I've pretty much hero-way'ed my way through it so far (just me + friend). It's a matter of getting good builds, good tactics and energy management.

Yeah, to some degree you can blame the players on this one. But when the AI doesn't even use the skills (or use correctly) you put in thier bar, then you can have the most suited build for the area your in and still get raped. You can't body block with hench/heros. I'm glad you're having tremendious success, but if you haven't noticed a change for the worse with the hench since the update, then you honestly cannot be using them all that much. I've almost completed the game with just hench and heros up until the update, but even before that i decided to go back and work with guildies that were behind. All the missions i mastered are now next to impossible to even complete, just using the AI.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

Yeah, to some degree you can blame the players on this one. But when the AI doesn't even use the skills (or use correctly) you put in thier bar, then you can have the most suited build for the area your in and still get raped. You can't body block with hench/heros. I'm glad you're having tremendious success, but if you haven't noticed a change for the worse with the hench since the update, then you honestly cannot be using them all that much. I've almost completed the game with just hench and heros up until the update, but even before that i decided to go back and work with guildies that were behind. All the missions i mastered are now next to impossible to even complete, just using the AI.

Yeah another thing I've been wanting to know if it could be implemented into the game was the ability to tell your hero's when to use certain skills. An example would be..Convert Hexes.

My prot Hero used this skill when I had one hex on me, you know what Convert Hexes does and that's a waste of it, considering the recharge and 15 energy cost.

You should be able to pick an option that says..

1. Use when a hex is on a (player)
2. Use when 2 or more hexes are on (player)

You could even go farther to tell them what skills are worse than others so they remove those faster. But that could be time consuming and impossible? Not sure. Just a thought for Anet to consider.

Karmaniac · Nov 02, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

This game is called Guildwars right? so get a guild dont play with random pugs. Why wouldn't you guys consider joining major pve guild such as xen of heroes<xoo>? they do master group for nearly all missions in all 3 chapters all the time. Stop being selfish, and be there to help out your fellow players for the love of guildwars

there are way too many guilds in guildwar. why just not a handful of them? everyone is big and really helpful.

Despite their name food stamps are not edible nor is the bullfrog the size of a bull. I think people have the right to decide how they want to play the game.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 02, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Hero A.I. needs some work. Monster A.I. is fine as it is. That is all.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Hero A.I. needs some work. Monster A.I. is fine as it is. That is all.

Yep. Henchy and Hero AI isn't differentiated, what Hero's are..are Henchies with 3 more skills and they are picked/can be utilized by you. You can also tell them defense/ attack / avoid combat. But I noticed that pick either one, they still kite regardless of what strategy you give them. To put it short Hero's are Henchies more player tuned. Hero's are good because of the skills you give them, not their AI. That's the problem their AI needs to be tweaked just a bit.

Oh and GIVE 1-2 MORE SLOTS PLEASE!