Curse

lunksunkunk · Nov 10, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

lol, just do away with the aggro-circle i guess. The AI is now officially human, if u come up on their radar. Your automatically aggro-ed despite the fact that there may be 20-30 of em in that area.

WasAGuest · Nov 10, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

I have yet to see any contradictions, only lack of understanding from pro-new-AI supporters. In other words, those that "don't get it"... hence confusion and grasping at something to refocus the thread on.

The only difference in opinions from players not liking the new AI is between the farmers and those that find the game too easy now. There is no contradictions from players of the same on either of those issues. Though, it seems pro-new-AI supporters are attempting to twist the issue from broken AI towards the players who are against a weak AI, to derail the topic. The usual forum tactics I must add. - Notice how the topic changed from discussion on AI towards the players? Derailing attempt... Topic thread is about "New Enemy AI"; not "Players that don't like the New Enemy AI". If you can't stay on topic, please start a new thread.

I think that video shows something is wrong with the AI right now, and we've finally heard from Gaile that Anet is at least looking into it. I've had entire groups of mobs do what that video showed. In fact, I've had several full groups do that. Chase us for the "pull", then we charge at them and they flee. This allows me (us when grouped) to reverse kite the entire zone for nearly free kills. If they aren't fleeing like that video shows, they are running in circles for the same result.

garethporlest18 · Nov 10, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I haven't seen this as much in NF as I seen in Prophecies. I chased a Bog Skale a full compass 1/2 length away from his group then he circled back around. I mean what does that accomplish? Just gets you killed running from your group that far.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 10, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Though, it seems pro-new-AI supporters are attempting to twist the issue from broken AI towards the players who are against a weak AI, to derail the topic. The usual forum tactics I must add. - Notice how the topic changed from discussion on AI towards the players? Derailing attempt...

So I guess you calling people who like the change "halfwits" doesnt count as "attempting to twist the issue towards the players" and isnt a "derailing attempt" right?

Sorry, but I wasnt the one throwing names out earlier and there is no conspiracy here. I did see a lot of contradictions, whether you agree or not is yet another issue obviously.

Now back to the topic, that video showed me what was wrong with the server synch/lag issues, not A.I. issues. There were a couple of times where I had the same problem with me sprinting accross the whole map and still had invisible enemies constantly hitting me. But when I stopped, I rubber banded alllllll the way back to where I started running.

If you believe the video shows A.I. problems and not server synch/lag issues, then ask yourself this and some of you already asked it, how were those gnashers keeping up with the warrior with the speed buffs when the gnashers themselves don't have speed buffs? The answer that they can't, the server synching is screwed up. It's not an A.I. issue in that video, it's a server issue.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 10, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Yeah, I don't know what the anti-A.I. complaints are anymore since they seem to contradict themselves.

First it was too hard and frustrating, now it's too easy and frustrating. The only thing that's for sure it that it's frustrating to them.

It's frustrating to me because it appears they went after solo farming and running as the main goal rather than actually improving the intelligence of the enemy mobs. In other words I think they targeted a few behaviors of players and tried to limit the effectiveness of those behaviors rather than trying to do an overall improvement of the AI.

The new monster AI is more difficult than the pre-NF AI only in the sense that running a marathon is more difficult than running a mile. You do the same thing -- it just takes longer, and that's if you choose to play the way you always did. Of course you can adjust to those changes with new tactics, or just not using any tactics at all and limit how much longer the battles will be. All they did was nerf the "kill the monk first" tactic.

Unfortunately, when they did this it was not in an intelligent manner. Before NF, the monks stood there and "took it", but at least they were healing themselves and their group members in the meantime. Now they leave the group area, and basically remove themselves from taking any part in the battle if you target them first. How smart is that?

With this AI, there is no need for any kind of tactic in my experience. All you need to do is set up a few heroes well, target the nearest critter, then do your best Leeroy Jenkins impersonation and you'll have a high probability of success. So for me we have gone from a very limited, but effective tactic to no tactic whatsoever. Sure, you can bring your crippling shot and other snares if you want, but it's neither necessary nor will it significantly change the outcome or duration of the battle. Don't get me wrong. I'm not for making a snare necessary for every battle. I'm not for making any ONE skill necessary for all battles.

So, yeah, it's frustrating. It's frustrating because it appears as they went after specific things instead of trying to improve the game. It's frustrating because they have given monsters abilities that aren't available to us - such as the ability to keep up with whatever you are chasing no matter how fast it goes. As people have mentioned, the bot farming doesn't appear to have stopped and they've irked a lot of players judging from the number of these forums. Players have always had the ability to increase the challenge level by taking smaller groups so there was not really even any need to do anything about that. So basically they changed several things unecessarily to achieve a certain effect and that didn't happen either.

Blackest Rose · Nov 10, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

No Sid it's not rubber banding....

I've seen a few posts now that say that enemies in ordinary combat seem to have charge/sprint capabilities even though they're not equipped.
They can move faster than they should.

The video is small but I didn't see any rubber banding - I saw a group of dwarves chasing him from one end of the map to another and then when trying to attack they would just run away.

WasAGuest · Nov 10, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

So I guess you calling people who like the change "halfwits" doesnt count as "attempting to twist the issue towards the players" and isnt a "derailing attempt" right?

Sorry, but I wasnt the one throwing names out earlier and there is no conspiracy here. I did see a lot of contradictions, whether you agree or not is yet another issue obviously.

Poor Sid... that's all I can say. I never called anyone a halfwit directly, I simply stated that anyone with half a wit, therefore being a halfwit would attempt to adapt to broken code. If you, yourself want to adapt to broken code, and place yourself into my "ordained" halfwit section, that it your business; not mine. I even recall saying I thought you were an intellengent person and not a halfwit... I did so in order to help the thread stay on target and I had no reason to believe you were as such... a halfwit... /shakes head.

Lag and server issues are not the problem. No rubber banding was taking place as said above. The video clearly shows mobs having perma-lock aggro, and "chicken little" behavior. Thus running before they even take a hit... watch carefully, those dwarfs are running as soon as he is heading at them.

Apply this same craptastic AI problems to entire groups of mobs where even the meleers are doing the same...

Now I understand some people are not seeing this, therefore they really have no input or understanding. Someone who's opinion and posts I often respect has rescently noted she had never seen this AI act in the way that video shows. I have no reason to disbelieve her, so I would have to say... this apparently is not a 100% thing for all players... which also means to me, it may be hard to track down and fix.

I have rescently been searching all over the net for other complaints from different people (since generally people stick to certain forums) and I found complaints about the "fleeing" AI all over the place. So it is not an issue of tactics nor "adaption", it's a case of buggered code.

At least we have seen Gaile post over at "another" forum and she states they are looking into the problem for us.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 10, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

No Sid it's not rubber banding....

I've seen a few posts now that say that enemies in ordinary combat seem to have charge/sprint capabilities even though they're not equipped.
They can move faster than they should.

The video is small but I didn't see any rubber banding - I saw a group of dwarves chasing him from one end of the map to another and then when trying to attack they would just run away.

I havent seen enemies move faster than normal unless I'm having lag or server issues. And you dont have to see rubber banding for it to be server synching problems. I'm not saying that I'm 100% correct, but looking at it logically it looks more like synching issues in that video rather than A.I. problems especially since I've experienced a similar problem.

There's a problem with the synching of the location of the gnashers that are chasing you and the location of where they actually are. So the gnashers are always on your tail no matter how far and fast you run.

And if you try it with henchies that have no speed buffs and then sprint through a group of gnashers., the henchies will keep the gnashers from following you because they're too busy fighting the henchies. And as soon as you're a certain distance away from the fight itself, you'll rubberband all the way back to your henchies and gnashers.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 10, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Poor Sid... that's all I can say. I never called anyone a halfwit directly, I simply stated that anyone with half a wit, therefore being a halfwit would attempt to adapt to broken code. If you, yourself want to adapt to broken code, and place yourself into my "ordained" halfwit section, that it your business; not mine. I even recall saying I thought you were an intellengent person and not a halfwit... I did so in order to help the thread stay on target and I had no reason to believe you were as such... a halfwit... /shakes head.

Wow. Way to make an excuse. So if I said anyone who can't adapt to the new A.I. is a retard and since you choose not to adapt, then you're a retard? And that's excusable?

At least be a man and admit what you did.

Mods sorry for the double post. I cant edit my first post due to the forum lag.

crimsonfilms · Nov 10, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Poor Sid... that's all I can say. I never called anyone a halfwit directly, I simply stated that anyone with half a wit, therefore being a halfwit would attempt to adapt to broken code. If you, yourself want to adapt to broken code, and place yourself into my "ordained" halfwit section, that it your business; not mine. I even recall saying I thought you were an intellengent person and not a halfwit... I did so in order to help the thread stay on target and I had no reason to believe you were as such... a halfwit...

Wow - what a cop out. You insult indirectly and you get called out on it and suddenly it does not apply. Wow - just wow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

this apparently is not a 100% thing for all players... which also means to me, it may be hard to track down and fix.

So some people seeing it justifes reverting the AI back to the old mindless way?

The point that people wants the old AI basically means you guys are not really complaining about the bug but complaining because it is not the AI you are use to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I have yet to see any contradictions, only lack of understanding from pro-new-AI supporters.

Really? I have 7 pages in this thread alone that can't even agree if the new AI is easy or hard.
Some can't even agree if it is about farming or not about farming.

There is no coherent argument about the new AI other than it is a new AI that you guys don't like.

Amity and Truth · Nov 10, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

There is one thing i'd like to know... how does A-Net know whether their community likes a change or not? The Feedback in the Boards about the changes are plenty and in case of the bugged AI indicating a great deal of not being satisfied with how things go. With the exception of a few spite posts which are contra everything, even the contra.

So how does A-Net really know how the Community likes the change? They allways state that the majority of players like the changes. How do they know? Do they have some kind of global telepathy system? Or do they take the lack of feedback as appreciation and celebration of the chance?

All i can see is a:
Horde of disappointed board communities.
Lots of frustration in the game channels.
Friends quitting the game in ever rising numbers.
Guildies leaving for good

This is not about adapt, or learning to play. This is about seeing an obvious bug and not wanting to deal with it. This is about friends, the very reason to play, leaving the game. What do i care if the sales figures rise? Of course they do, there was a massive advertisement campaign plus the change was maliciously made just a day before Nightfall Release. Of course the sale figures go up, most people didn't know yet about the fubar AI until after they bought Nightfall and found out themselves. And then came this "fix" which made things even worse, introducing new bugs by the second of release.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 10, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

For those that still think the enemies locking onto you and chasing you down is an A.I. issue, here's what I found in just the last 6 pages of the bug report thread. From what I read I'm further convinced that the issue is a server/client issue NOT A.I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidney Licker

Another one on lag or a mis-alignment between client and server. In Fort Aspenwood after you give amber to one of the gate keepers and make a run for the green gate, you've got a chance of making it before it closes automatically. If you don't make it, previously you might appear outside the green gate running forward but then pop back a short time later to appear behind the green gate. Now I can run all of the way up to the outside teleporter and instead of teleporting outside I appear behind the green gate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I remember being attacked by the invisible a few times; I really went "WTF this is so not normal O_o;;;;" because there was NO enemies around or on my radar... due to the surprise I don't remember where I was or if I was in team, but it was in Elona.

And two days ago, in FoW, a skeletal bond chased us on a quite big distance. The moment we'd get to him to kill him (well some attempted...) we kept aggroing its whole group despite it was pretty far from him.

I don't mind the new AI at some point, but when we're being chased or chase enemies across for several minutes... it's gotta be fixed O_o;.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavindathar

No, it's nothing to do with their aggro bubble.

I was solo'ing the UW with my VWK rit. I'd cleared the grasps, and ran past the ataxes using Illusion of Haste. As usual, they ran towards me, tried an attack. They hit me once...

I carried on running, and as they always do they break off and leave you alone. They let you run off, and are standing a good 5 seconds running away from your aggro circle...yet, they still attack and do damage. Once this starts, you could run to the otherside of the map, and still take damage of them even if they dont move.

Its only ever happened in the UW to me so far...and only happens if they hit you. If you run past and they dont get a hit, they break as normal and leave you alone.

Anet need to sort this. Like I said, I've read about it before on Guru, but couldnt find the post. And after happening to me I now know how bad of a bug this is...it can ruin a whole run, as there is no escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyosuke

The problem is LAG... there are alot of "lag" spots on the maps.. Like literally places on the physical map that for some reason cause you to lag. I can go over the same spot several different times and it causes me to lag. One is when running to the right side of the troll caves in Talus Chute, Another in Flame Temple Corridor... I haven't noticed any in Elona quite yet, but the lag spots seem to be consistent and always cause that same reslt.. I'll be a quarter mile ahead of baddie and all of a sudden i see damage fly all ove rmy screen and BAM i'm dead... it's really messed up and weird.

And yes I do think it should be fixed.

WasAGuest · Nov 11, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Sorry all, partially my fault the topic keeps getting pulled off topic - I'll respond to only Ai related issues and refrain from commentary. I was ticked at the bugs at the time I said it... my fault.

Over at GWOnline, Gaile has requested infomation from those who are having the buggy AI. She also states that they are looking into it. Hopefully that means we can have a fix soon.

Since it requires an account to view over there, I'm sure one of the mods here will post what is being requested by the devs here soon... they usually do.

Good news indeed, hopefully they fix it soon.

Mr_T_bot · Nov 11, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

So some people seeing it justifes reverting the AI back to the old mindless way?

Some people? What Bizarro world do you live in? This stuff is all over every major fanboard.

lunksunkunk · Nov 11, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

There is one thing i'd like to know... how does A-Net know whether their community likes a change or not? The Feedback in the Boards about the changes are plenty and in case of the bugged AI indicating a great deal of not being satisfied with how things go. With the exception of a few spite posts which are contra everything, even the contra.

So how does A-Net really know how the Community likes the change? They allways state that the majority of players like the changes. How do they know? Do they have some kind of global telepathy system? Or do they take the lack of feedback as appreciation and celebration of the chance?

All i can see is a:
Horde of disappointed board communities.
Lots of frustration in the game channels.
Friends quitting the game in ever rising numbers.
Guildies leaving for good

This is not about adapt, or learning to play. This is about seeing an obvious bug and not wanting to deal with it. This is about friends, the very reason to play, leaving the game. What do i care if the sales figures rise? Of course they do, there was a massive advertisement campaign plus the change was maliciously made just a day before Nightfall Release. Of course the sale figures go up, most people didn't know yet about the fubar AI until after they bought Nightfall and found out themselves. And then came this "fix" which made things even worse, introducing new bugs by the second of release.

I couldnt have said it better myself. Your five points made absolute sense to me.

The problem is that the so-called "majority" that liked the changes are still here and of course still running around telling others to deal with it. The people that were dissapointed left, for good. So of course alot of what you see is "I love the update!", but is a that a true "majority"? While the others who want this fixed bring up valid points but are being called whiners and complainers for having their opinion. In the end, u get fanboys making Anet think they did a spectacular job. While the silent majority just doesnt even wanna bother. Over the past few weeks, my friends list has been shrinking in the amoutn of people online. My previous guild is dead, some of the players left for good. Also good friends of mine went straight back to WoW, when i was the first one to convince them to even try GW. So yes, the poll consensus is a "majority" approval rating for GW changes. While the true majority are playing CoD2, BF2142, WoW, and whatever else im not sure.

I know there gonna be people that are gonna post a reply and completely and utterly call me out. Before u do, i dont really care about this update. I pretty much saw it coming, but i didnt think that they would pull this shady act right before Nightfall came out. O well. Business as usual i guess.

Tijger · Nov 11, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Some people? What Bizarro world do you live in? This stuff is all over every major fanboard.

You do know that fanboards are not a fair representation of players, right?

Anyway, on topic, I've not had any problems with the AI to date, yeah, they're a little more aggressive going for soft targets so you equip the soft skins with personal/area defenses.
As for running away...I find if you dont chase they'll stop fast and you can easily kill them with ranged attacks.

Blackest Rose · Nov 11, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

There's a problem with the synching of the location of the gnashers that are chasing you and the location of where they actually are. So the gnashers are always on your tail no matter how far and fast you run..

Lets say you're right :
Ok I guess I'll have to adapt to that problem too.... since anet wouldn't see that as a problem.

Damnit I think my mouse broke - nevermind I'll adapt

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 11, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

Lets say you're right :
Ok I guess I'll have to adapt to that problem too.... since anet wouldn't see that as a problem.

Damnit I think my mouse broke - nevermind I'll adapt

No, no one has said that you should have to adapt to bad server lag and client/server synching issues. Those issues should be fixed. All I'm trying to say is not every bad thing you guys were bringing up is an A.I. issue.

And go buy another mouse.

garethporlest18 · Nov 11, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Enemies do have speed enhancements naturally. Avicara, Grasps and Scythes do, without any speed boost. That shouldn't be, I don't care if they are birds, then ettins shouldn't move fast either, Ettins should be moving with a 33% slow with all that girth, if we're gonna be realistic.

That Sid, isn't a server issue, it's a fact I have noticed playing for the 16 or so months I have been.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 11, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Enemies do have speed enhancements naturally. Avicara, Grasps and Scythes do, without any speed boost. That shouldn't be, I don't care if they are birds, then ettins shouldn't move fast either, Ettins should be moving with a 33% slow with all that girth, if we're gonna be realistic.

That Sid, isn't a server issue, it's a fact I have noticed playing for the 16 or so months I have been.

So you're saying because those specific enemies have speed buffs then all those other lag issues that me and other people have had with other enemies arent server issues? How did you jump to that conclusion?

Besides, I saw no mention of those enemies you specified in the bug reports people were submitting. Do you even know what issue we're talking about? We're not discussing "realism" here, we were talking about the fact that sometimes enemies will "autolock" on you and you can't escape them no matter how far or fast you run.