Curse

Matix411 · Nov 08, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Well ... I suppose if you were Palawa Joko you could conquer the world ............ one day.
Fleeing, no, not necessarily, but in the way that I have witnessed it, yes, it seems more like fleeing than luring. It would be luring if I was attacked by another mob, but that is not always the case.
And yes, I have chased enemies farther outside my aggro bubble than I would have liked, particularly on the first island in Nightfall, whether this happens to everybody or not? I don't know, and, as you said; "Is it the new patch?" I don't know that either.
All I'm saying is it's getting to be a bit of a neusance, but, it hasn't stopped my progress entirely, just more than I would have liked in some cases, like ... missions under a specific time limit to get Masters etc.

arcady · Nov 08, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Three things, first, you can't conquer the world if you're dead. Don't believe it? From Caesar to Alexander the Great to Napolean, each had his tactical retreats.

Second. Is it fleeing? Or luring an unsuspecting and unprepared foe into a deathtrap with backup. Or just keeping out of the way while they degen to death.

There's a difference between a tactical retreat and a route.

Take it from an ex-soldier - you break the line, you flee and scatter, you die.

If you're going to retreat, you do it in an organized and planned manner, you don't scatter in all directions and you don't flee away from your squad.

It is fleeing, when it is all over the place and designed to get out of aggro. Anyone can tell the difference between flight and lure - and this is flight.

And, I have not been in a fight in this game where this -doesn't- happen since the patch.

The way they -SELECT- targets hasn't changed - they still select particular targets. What -HAS CHANGED- is that after they select them they will then run away from them if you charge them rather than yourself flee.

Going through Prophesies and factions I've never had them flee from me - rather they would hold together and fight and try to take out my weak points. It was hard.

Now, it's easy.

They still go for my weak-points, but as soon as I chase their weak point they all scatter - once they no longer have a 'squad / line' I can pick them off even if I am notably under their level because I keep my squad together.

Sli Ander · Nov 08, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I've not had much problem with this. In fact I've not had any in the areas I've frequented since the update.

I have to agree with the distinction made between a tactical retreat and a rout. The thing we have to figure out is whether it is intended to be a rout or a retreat. If they are simply running away randomly, I could see there being a problem. If they are running towards other mobs, and then coming back(as if attempting to lure you) then the AI in that area is just fine.

The one time I have seen any evidence of the "run away across the screen" issue was when I destroyed all but two of a group. They hightailed it off to one side, where there was a large congregation of other enemies. I stopped following at that point, because I didn't care so long as they were out of my path.
So here's the point to my ramble: from what everyone is saying Anet should probably look at the AI for major bosses, make sure there are no bugs. From the mobs pov, I don't see much problem, but maybe Anet should double check to make sure the algorithms are working properly on what health level they run at. If there are no problems with mob AI (i've not witnessed any regularly) then bring a snare or use the fact that the casters are running to your advantage.

But that's just my two cents

Desires · Nov 08, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

No offence you sound like one of those wammos in pvp who always starts ranting things like "fight like a man" or "stop running noob" when a monk starts kiting him. If your too lazy to bring a snare or speed boost there are other ways. Take a warrior for example charge adrenilan on a seprate target run up to the monk THEN select him and spike him down not exactly rocket science.

TSCavalier · Nov 08, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

You think it is realistic that trained combatants with 'on the ground' combat experience run away everytime their line of soilders is attacked by single opponents?

You watch too many movies.

In reality, running away is a very valid tactical move. Fall back and regroup.

In reality, battles are decided by the morale of the combatants. Morale is based on a combination of motivation, success, and self-preservation.

In large-scale medieval battles (and even more recent ones), a lot of times men would fight until things looked dangerous, and then would "play dead", hoping to see an opportunity when nobody was looking to run away.

Nobody and nothing would realistically want to die in combat against obviously overwhelming odds unless they had an intense motivation to do so (religious, whatever).

So, I agree that "mindless" undead would probably fight to the death, as would unintelligent animals. Intelligent animals would take wounds to a point, and then would generally run away. Sentient animals (like people) would prefer to live to fight another day against overwhelming odds if there's a chance, unless they were specifically zealots of a particular cause, in which case they would fight to the death.

So, I would say the proper behavior for the AI would be:

- Keep casters away from melee opponents
- Attack "soft" targets first
- Run towards your allies, away from opponents, if you are outnumbered.

That's about what the new AI does, right? And it's what most "newbie" (and advanced) players would do in PvP by default, and it's probably how most people play.

I'm not saying the AI doesn't make hairbrained choices, but a lot of humans aren't all that bright, either.

Edit:

I don't have the Prophecies box in front of me, but now you can actually experience what it says on the inside cover, which is something like:

"Cripple your opponent with Hamstring and then rain fire down upon him as he slowly limps away."

Golly! It actually works now against the AI!

arcady · Nov 08, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSCavalier

You watch too many movies.

In reality, running away is a very valid tactical move. Fall back and regroup.

Nobody and nothing would realistically want to die in combat against obviously overwhelming odds unless they had an intense motivation to do so (religious, whatever).

Not movies.

I'm a veteran, I've had training, and I've studied history. Come back and challenge me on real combat tactics when -you- have had to fire an M-16 at someone.

Falling and back and regrouping can be sound at times, but it is different from the routes we are seeing. When you fall back you do it in an organized manner and you 'hold the line / squad' while doing it.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 08, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Not movies.

I'm a veteran, I've had training, and I've studied history.

Falling and back and regrouping can be sound at times, but it is different from the routes we are seeing. When you fall back you do it in an organized manner and you 'hold the line / squad' while doing it.

I can see your point but this isnt reality. If it were reality, monsters wouldnt just let a group of adventurers kill another group of monster only a few feet away and in line of sight. If it were reality, those separate group of monsters would converge on you as soon as you were "in sight" not just in aggro range.

I always thought that it was funny that I'd be only 40 feet away from three separate groups of monsters and it's clear that they can see me but they won't attack because I'm not in "aggro range"

The point is that it's a game. The A.I. isnt going to act rationally/irrationally according to real life.

WasAGuest · Nov 08, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

I can see your point but this isnt reality. If it were reality, monsters wouldnt just let a group of adventurers kill another group of monster only a few feet away and in line of sight. If it were reality, those separate group of monsters would converge on you as soon as you were "in sight" not just in aggro range.

I always thought that it was funny that I'd be only 40 feet away from three separate groups of monsters and it's clear that they can see me but they won't attack because I'm not in "aggro range"

The point is that it's a game. The A.I. isnt going to act rationally/irrationally according to real life.

But without some sort of reality, not even fantasy can survive. Many things in GW contain real world ideals. Look at the locations. They are derived from real world places. The best fantasy novels are often built upon real world places and "twisted" into their own fantastic realm.
Real world issues make these fantasy places better and more alive. Combat, politics, ect. The creatures and magical forces are added to create a fully fantastical world. However, all these things tie together within the confines of real world things. Combat for example.
I can use your example here as well Sid. That group of Hekets standing there sees the heroes wandering. Heroes engage and so the hekets choose to defend themselves. Just ten feet away, a group of "living plants" sees the battle and see a chance for "live food". In GW, the realisty is broken since the plants ignore the hekets and jump on the heroes only. Why? The plants should also attack the hekets.
Same ideals in reverse. A wandering group of human gaurds walks by and through a group of hekets. The hekets ignore them; however they jump the heroes. Battle starts and yet the human guards keep on walking.
These two examples show the break in reality and limits to the game world in terms of relation of groups.
Raw combat however, can be fixed as stated above. PvE combat is not about running around playing tag, it's about over powering an over powered and far more powerful foe. The challenge isn't who can out kite and out think the other (that's why the current AI is so easy, it is set up like a PvP bot; yet it can not adapt), it's about raw strength for the mobs, and heroes' abilities to over come that raw power.
I believe PvPers are probably enjoying it cause it's a familiar play style and a for sure win. However, it's not farmers that are upset about the change, it's general PvEers who are finding the game has turned into something completely different and un-entertaining. Again, it's not hard, it's boring.

YunSooJin · Nov 08, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

The end result from the AI changes is that players are generally frustrated with the game, not enjoying it. You'll see a lot more negative responses from people who've barely posted - a good indication that something is wrong.

ANET can do whatever it wants, but each of their alterations has a rippling effect in how the game is perceived. If they want to make their game hard and frustrating as opposed to hard and fun, that is their perogative. On the other hand, if they don't listen to their customers, they can expect a slow death of their franchise.

Count to Potato · Nov 09, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Running a war with axe rake/hamstring works fine

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

Running a war with axe rake/hamstring works fine

As does every single class with a single snare. That's the problem... now that we are on the same page, the AI is not fun this way. Not challenging, entertaining... oh hell... just read what's posted above.

Difficulty and tactics are not the issue at hand. It's crap AI that half wits prefer to "adapt" too, rather than demand a challenging and (key word there is "AND") entertaining change. This current AI is nothing but boring and easy to mop the desert floor with.

Phades · Nov 09, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

It was booring and easy before.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 09, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

As does every single class with a single snare. That's the problem... now that we are on the same page, the AI is not fun this way. Not challenging, entertaining... oh hell... just read what's posted above.

Difficulty and tactics are not the issue at hand. It's crap AI that half wits prefer to "adapt" too, rather than demand a challenging and (key word there is "AND") entertaining change. This current AI is nothing but boring and easy to mop the desert floor with.

I'm still not sure what your complaint is... You're saying that the A.I. is too easy yet it seems like you'd rather go back to the old A.I. which was arguably a LOT easier than this version.

And you keep insisting that people arent complaining about the A.I. being difficult, then why the many threads complaining about "Nerfs" on this or that? And people don't start angry threads because they find something too easy, it's the other way around.

Also, you refer to people who are willing to adapt as "halfwits".... And here I thought those are the people who refuse to adapt....

saphir · Nov 09, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Funny, I find the current AI just right for my hero/hench parties. I don't pack a single snare of any sort, just run heroes w/ AOE fire + ward, mm necro w/ BR, and Melonni w/o any enchant removal.

I play as a heal/prot monk, w/ Mhenlo as my other partner monk, Ill mes for the only interrupt she has, Eve blood necro to keep my damagers full of energy and Devona for additional tanking.

I just call the right targets for them, tell Acolyte Sousuke to cast his ward against melee if he's slow on the uptake, and away we go.

So far explored every area and finished every quest and mission up to Kodash Bazaar w/o party wipes. The only wipe I had was when I tried to do the one to get the bonus for killing the Drought without weakening him first. First time I tried it, I just sent in my henchies and was flattened in under 5 seconds lol.

Otherwise I normally don't bother w/ flagging at all, and aggro more than I would w/ a normal pug or all hench group. So I'm liking the AI now. Provides more fun as a monk than pugging for UW, since it's frantic mad healing/prot'ing with crazy saves, aggro and near death experiences, but my group always comes out on top. Now if those minions would finally cough up those drops they stole from me..

WasAGuest · Nov 09, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

I'm still not sure what your complaint is... You're saying that the A.I. is too easy yet it seems like you'd rather go back to the old A.I. which was arguably a LOT easier than this version.

I will break it down for you again. Old AI was easy, yea. But required less "fixing" then this craptastic Ai that we have now. It was also miles more fun than what we are dealing with now. Fun is why many of us are playing this game... this AI is not, I repeat, not fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

And you keep insisting that people arent complaining about the A.I. being difficult, then why the many threads complaining about "Nerfs" on this or that? And people don't start angry threads because they find something too easy, it's the other way around.

You put words in my mouth, I said I haven't seen. And... I also said I have seen complaints on nerfage... mainly from farmers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Also, you refer to people who are willing to adapt as "halfwits".... And here I thought those are the people who refuse to adapt....

That's because you are placing yourself into the half wit spot. Don't put yourself there. There's nothing in the current Ai to adapt to. Simply using a single skill type (any snare will work) is not adapting, it's exploiting a very weak AI. One that has no clue what danger is. One that does no longer know when to stop swinging at someone that has SOJ (or other like spells) on.
My complaint is simple, the current AI is not challenging, fun, entertaining or slighting interesting. It makes each and every fight the exact same, and is miles worse than what we had at Nightfall release. Only complaint I have seen (other than from farmers) on that "bugged" release, is that it often targeted warriors.
Compare that complaint, vs the complaints (multiple) of the current. The only people that seem to be enjoying the current AI are the PvPers who seem to enjoy games such as tag and ring-a-round-the-rosy.

Edit @Saphir: No wipes here either, none even close... I could play the game with my eyes closed. Mobs prefer to run in circles rather than fight these days.

lunksunkunk · Nov 09, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

I love the ppl that say adapt, snare, and stop whining! Your input was well appreciated and taken into consideration now that my ranger carries either cripshot or pindown, its actually kinda hilarious to see how the monk or caster tries to run but then i daze the sucker and then its bye bye. But its even funnier to watch them kite or chase after u when u dont have a snare. I was chasing a stone summit gnasher, kournan priest, and margonite cleric (the list goes on) round in circles a bunch of times, its like i was playing tag. When they chase after u, they completely leave their group for like 2-3 aggro circles and then just stand there and do nothing. That was kinda hilarious, avicara with rocket shoes chasing after me when i had dodge alternating with zojuns, and escape. He didnt slow down at all, he kept a good milimeter away from my circle just to chase me, death swarm me, then stand there thinking, "I must be lost". Is it challenging? Im not too sure about that. Is it fun? Depends on your definition of fun i guess.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 09, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

That's because you are placing yourself into the half wit spot. Don't put yourself there. There's nothing in the current Ai to adapt to.

Thanks for repeatedly flaming even though I've been civil this whole time. And if you find it so easy, then why the hostility? Chill out.

Also, you say there's nothing to adapt to, do you even know what adapting means? If there was no change to adapt to, then why are you complaining? I've seen you make plenty of posts (Not just in this thread) where you basically say you're going to quit the game.

As I said before, chill out. Stop getting worked up under the collar and just enjoy the game. If you can't do that...then yeah just quit the game because it's obviously causing you stress and grief.

Loralai · Nov 09, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I will be one to admit that I don't find the new AI easy at all. I can't even stand play in the realms anymore because it is so annoying. Sure it's fine up to a certain point in the game, but the later areas are much more difficult for me, so much so that I often find myself raging out of sheer frustration when attempting anything in that area.

I don't purport to be a superb player, but snares or not, there are some areas that are just ridiculous to play with the current state of AI. (Just my opinion however.)

crimsonfilms · Nov 09, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I will break it down for you again. Old AI was easy, yea. But required less "fixing" then this craptastic Ai that we have now. It was also miles more fun than what we are dealing with now. Fun is why many of us are playing this game... this AI is not, I repeat, not fun.

What does that mean - "fixing"?
You are contradicting yourself. You keep insisting the curent Ai is easy, nothing to adapt to, etc.
Yet you want to revert to the *mindless* AI of the old and that IS FUN?

And not mention many DID NOT find the old way as fun. That was mindless, insultingly mindless.
If it easy yet asks you to use more gray matter - then why revert to the old way? So we can use the 55 and SS build for the 1000000000000th time?

I really dont see the actual point of your argument. You are speaking in general and subjective terms without explanation.

saphir · Nov 09, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Odd, the mobs I fight don't run at all. Their monks nor their casters start running until things start looking bad for them.

I just target call the healer and Devona and Melonni Charge to the poor guy and flatten him in seconds. Then it's on to the stationary necros, ele spikers and mesmers. When they run out of aoe, they don't get far. And the AI doesn't just focus target on one player anymore, the enemy warriors and dervs are always on my backline which is why wards come in handy. I even had melonni setting traps a few times, i forget why now lol.

Anyway, maybe my aggro is so messy because I don't bother to flag the heroes, I just call the target and watch them rush in. I do sort of wonder why my necro and mesmer henches manage to get into battle before my warrior hench does though!

But hell, it's more fun that way and more like a PUG lol. I miss my pugging days!

hmm.. just had a thought.. maybe the enemy casters only run from players and not henchies? lol