Curse

Navaros · Dec 11, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

You know there could be any number of reason why people aren't coming other than "they have not finished the game", like PvP may take dominance, they want to roll there other characters through the game first, other things going on in real life, the list is rather long.

Those aren't the reasons why hardly anyone plays DoA. Guild Wars has so many potential DoA players that even those who get sidelined by the reasons you listed would have no noticeable effect on the numbers in the grand scheme of things. Just look at any event, there is between 75 - 200 districts for the event zone.

Granted not everyone owns NF and of those who do not everyone has beaten it, but even so when using common sense it is quite apparent there is a huge difference there that can only reasonably be attributed to players not wanting to be in DoA.

For a brand spanking new elite mission to go from 15+ districts to a maximum of 3 districts within a week is all the evidence required that DoA's "Dead on Arrival" name as coined by many posters in this thread is very apt.

I was in the Deep outpost a few times today. Not a single person was there other than me.

DoA is going to be likewise dead in a few months unless Anet starts swinging the nerf bat to bash DoA to smithereens.

Surely Anet doesn't want their elite missions to be flops like this. Yet it almost seems that way based on their apparent unwillingness to nerf DoA or provide access for everyone to the elite missions in Factions.

Mysterial · Dec 12, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

or provide access for everyone to the elite missions in Factions.

That wouldn't change anything about those areas. People who wanted to get in got in, one way or another. The reason those areas are empty is because they aren't much more fun than DoA is.

Sirus Dibley · Dec 12, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

I do want to join the Guild wars is dying camp , however....

Just one week on from its release and ALREADY Domain Of Anguish is very quiet compared to the opening weekend when it was rammed.

I think that says it all really , and yes anet do have serious problems right now.

Kenagalaz · Dec 12, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Yay! Titan gemstone prices are gonna go back up!

geminisaga · Dec 12, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

doa is just fine like it was, the only problem my group get is leaver , and err7 ppl . nothing else. also this is vent ts grp.

Inner Salbat · Dec 12, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

That wouldn't change anything about those areas. People who wanted to get in got in, one way or another. The reason those areas are empty is because they aren't much more fun than DoA is.

That doesn't mean there is no one that wants to play them at all, I'm sure like others, when I went to Factions high level content, I expected something on the level of FoW/Uw what I got was cheapness, pretty much what DoA is cheapness, when you go to FoW/Uw they look like some one gave a <censored> about what they was doing there, everything nicely balanced so anyone of any class can go play it.

Thing for me at least I and I know most will apposed to this thinking, but PvE is supposed to be of no challenge, if you want 'challenge' go PvP, at least your facing an something that knows what it's doing.

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

DoA is going to be likewise dead in a few months unless Anet starts swinging the nerf bat to bash DoA to smithereens.

Surely Anet doesn't want their elite missions to be flops like this. Yet it almost seems that way based on their apparent unwillingness to nerf DoA or provide access for everyone to the elite missions in Factions.

Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

How about revealing some of more advanced strategies. Not because they would be so hard, but because then players might try them.

Right now, every single build is either trapper based, or T/N/H holy trinity. The posted build for the foundry relies on exploiting a pet corpse, and is the same tank/nuke build as everywhere else.

There's an odd attempt or two at something else, but inevitably, the common denominator seems that nobody in GW is prepared to even consider other builds.

This is why it fails. Nerfs won't solve anything. Yes, any attempt to bring challenge into GW has failed. Make it grind based, so that people can simply whack-a-margonite for 2 weeks, and get their razah.

Seriously. DoA has finally proven that time > skill matters. In two weeks no real new strategy has evolved, and the only groups that get anywhere use the tried and true dps build.

In this regard, GW has failed in its design. While supposedly skill based, up until DoA, no other area has required true skill, just some build that overwhealms the mobs. Maybe something like this will apear for DoA, although it's doubtful.

DoA is an area of skill. But apparently, nobody wants to even discuss that, and it ends with nerf, grind or too hard.

Inner Salbat · Dec 12, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

How about revealing some of more advanced strategies. Not because they would be so hard, but because then players might try them.

Hero's and lack of proper team building UI, is entirely to blame for that, new players don't learn those new strategies from 'other human' players because there wrapped up in there hero's/henchmen, oddly it started in Factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

DoA is an area of skill. But apparently, nobody wants to even discuss that, and it ends with nerf, grind or too hard.

Of course, no one likes to be defeated, over and over again that's why people don't learn new skills in dealing with things, so they stick with what works and what ever doesn't fall in line with what works, they avoid.

Also grinding over 100 gems to get 1 weapon is way too much and would have put people off it, when they discover the difficulty of the place and figure out how long it will take to get that amount, I'd leave too.

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Of course, no one likes to be defeated, over and over again that's why people don't learn new skills in dealing with things, so they stick with what works and what ever doesn't fall in line with what works, they avoid.

Also grinding over 100 gems to get 1 weapon is way too much and would have put people off it, when they discover the difficulty of the place and figure out how long it will take to get that amount, I'd leave too.

Well, you just pointed out the fact: time > skill. Nobody cares about skill: they care about vambrace.

Those that did bother to try it out know, that gems drop. A lot. Really a lot.

But, the place isn't "that" difficult. Almost all mobs in DoA can be tanked "solo" by a single character, the ones I've seen are W, E, D, A and Mo. Almost all mobs can be killed fast. Backfire, mistrust and other anti-caster attacks will shred at least one mob before the nukers get their MS off. A ranger, rather than spending time trapping for hours, can daze entire caster groups. Sliver armor slices through melee. And so on...

And this is where it ends. An ele in DoA is SF/GG/MS/Gaze + rez. There might be an odd Obs Flesh tank. Bonders are once again standard practice. True, they halve the damage. But there are other ways to cut damage in half. There's also ways to completely prevent damage.

But none of these matter. NF campaign for me was by far the easiest. Factions is hard work compared to that. And there isn't a single place in PvE where such strategies would be even remotely required. Advanced strategies in PvE are limited to Spoil Victor and Spinal Shivers (although, that's by now forgotten, since nobody does The Deep anymore).

And this is probably the ultimate problem. Unlike GvG, HA and possible RA, where popular builds, strategies and tactics spread instantly, PvE has no such place. There simply is no authority that would help popularize new aproaches. There is no observer mode to copy from, the time needed to complete an area is too long.

And this is where the improper attitude shows. If DoA were seen as skill-required area, groups would be going in, trying new builds, everyone would be prepared to learn, different strategies would get refined, etc.

Didn't happen. As soon as Stygian Veil walkthrough was posted, everyone and their siblings was looking for 2 trappers, 2 nukers. It works, but unless played by synchronized team, just too slow.

And as a final unsult, SF is put as an example of fun area. A place that made stance tanking exploit infamous. A place of 4-man farming that made MM infamous. It's nicely done, the story, the graphics. But what is the driving force behind it? By exploiting certain tactics, it was almost afk farmable with armies of 30 minions and a tank holding agro with keg. These days, SF isn't much of anything anymore.

That's the truth. Exploit > Time > skill. DoA has just helped prove that.

Inner Salbat · Dec 12, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

And as a final unsult, SF is put as an example of fun area. A place that made stance tanking exploit infamous. A place of 4-man farming that made MM infamous. It's nicely done, the story, the graphics. But what is the driving force behind it? By exploiting certain tactics, it was almost afk farmable with armies of 30 minions and a tank holding agro with keg. These days, SF isn't much of anything anymore.

That's the truth. Exploit > Time > skill. DoA has just helped prove that.

Don't forget the FoW warrior holding book exploit (nerfed now, so don't try it), well that's what people do who play games casually, if they don't have time to develop/learn new things, they exploit even if that means an extra our, because casual as it sounds means you have a little time to play this game, let alone anything else, PvP is more I've got time to learn new stuff.

SF was on par with FoW, noted by the 4 manning which you can do too FoW as well, not the same build mind you, everyone loved it I didn't like the farming myself, because I wanted to get quests done, but that was a minor annoyance, so should those 3 areas from Chapter 1, be the limit to how hard things should be made for this game?

Frostlight · Dec 12, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

It seems there are two kinds of people here - those who think playing around with skills and builds is the core of GW, and those who think otherwise.

SF is given as an example of a fun area by the latter precisely because of the story, humor, graphics and atmosphere, etc. Skills are entirely beside the point - there's no need to use any exploits if you want to just play through the area instead of just farming.

How many people like to play around in dreary, post-searing Ascalon? I would guess not too many. DoA is post-searing Ascalon except it's uglier, things take 10 times longer to work through, and there are no outposts.

Burst Cancel · Dec 12, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Nobody cares about skill: they care about vambrace.

Key point.

DoA is empty because the reward doesn't warrant the effort, and the majority of the GW playerbase is concerned with rewards only. FoW and UW were made popular by Obsidian armor, which was a highly visible status symbol. In contrast, how many people actually want Torment items? You can't display these weapons in town (which is vitally important to the adolescent ego), and many would no-doubt prefer an Elemental Sword or Colossal Scimitar anyway.

Considering the disproportionate difficulty and required time investment of DoA, many players simply don't see any reason to attempt it without a sufficiently spectacular reward. I think everyone here would agree that interest and attendence in DoA would instantly spike if a Diamond Armor crafter was found inside Mallyx's Citadel.

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostlight

SF is given as an example of a fun area by the latter precisely because of the story, humor, graphics and atmosphere, etc. Skills are entirely beside the point - there's no need to use any exploits if you want to just play through the area instead of just farming.

SF is a good area. So is FoW. UW is slightly different, but also has good athmosphere.

But when comparing popularity, an important fact is often overlooked.

Both, FoW and UW are, to this day, severly populated by farmers. Apart from very desirable materials, there's also popular skins. Same held true for SF. It was dominated by farmers. During high times of SF, these forums were filled with complaints, about how everything anyone runs there is the 4-man farming groups, and how it's impossible to find anyone willing to do the quests.

Now here's DoA. Farmers haven't found their builds yet. Quest rewards are still a bit vague. How much are gems worth, is ambrace worth it, coffer? What about final quest? The greens?

In the end, it's the same story. DoA just raises the bar a bit higher.

It's hard to argue what ended SF. Was it the MM redesign, the item holding agro change? Both coincided with release of Factions, so that played a factor as well.

But regardless of anything, DoA isn't really much different from those areas. Factions elite missions are empty simply because it's too hard to get into them, not because nobody would want to play them. SF is still farmed for greens, quests have been long forgotten. And FoW/UW, still run ecto farming groups, despite all the changes.

So before prophecising gloom and doom to DoA, consider that it's at aproximately the same level as all high-end quest areas. The only difference is that the farmers haven't moved in yet, and perhaps never will, at least not to extent known in other places. But taking an objective look, farming(=grinding) is what keeps areas busy, not questing.

Inner Salbat · Dec 12, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostlight

It seems there are two kinds of people here - those who think playing around with skills and builds is the core of GW, and those who think otherwise.

You can't really play around with builds and skill in "PvE" too much without it costing gold, this limits what people can play by how much gold they have, no such limit there for PvP, not that I'm advocating everything be free on building for PvE I'm not, but in PvE changing from one build to another can cost lots of gold, to get it right as it's supposed to be, since most people are poor, creativity is for the most part not there.

Spazzer · Dec 12, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenagalaz

Yay! Titan gemstone prices are gonna go back up!

For all the wrong reasons.

Fix Razah. ~_~

[edit] For those who would like to say "you don't need razah", please show me another Ritualist hero I can acquire for my pve character. =)

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

2 things in GW right now that are completely inadequate, trade system (actually touched on by some reviews), and the team building UI which both of this problems have been around since beta, they would have better spent there time rather than on (Dead On Arrival), to fix this problems rather than let them fester further.

Team building UI doesn't really solve the problem. It simply makes cookie cutter teams easier to verify.

Assembling an effective team is not something UI can solve. Planning for coherent build that covers all bases, while allowing everyone to contribute most is a task that goes beyond buttons and windows.

This is the key issue players experience in DoA. It's not about a build, where everyone downloads their individual class template, and plays that. DoA highly rewards team builds. It's doable without, but it's much harder.

The Deep build was individual build. 3 W/A with this and that skill, 4 nukers, a ss/shiver necro, ..... Set up your personal build, and forget about others.

In DoA, no such build has yet been proven to work. The closest, and possible only, is the usual tank/heavy dps/bond/prot/heal combo, or the trapper/nuker combination. They are simply brute force. What these builds completely ignore, is any kind of shutdown/denial/interrupt/damage prevention abilities. And considering the overabundance of casters in all those areas, such techniques help much more that simply trying to absorb the damage.

Designing a team build on the spot is not an easy task. It takes a very good understanding of all classes involved, and knowledge of all skills. This knowledge simply dwarfs the annoyances brought upon by manually coordinating builds.

An extensive group UI would mostly hurt, since it would merely serve to enforce cookie cutter stereotypes. Echo nuker is still the norm in many places, despite glyph being a better choice for fast moving groups, and various SF combinations even better. Anything but fire ele doesn't even exist in pve. Warders are sought from time to time in particular missions, completely neglecting a very powerful damage prevention aspect. For necros, it's MM or SS. And yet, blood is devastating in many areas. Prot monks are something rare as well. And not to mention many classes that don't even exist: Mesmers, Assassins and Ritualists being the notable ones, with Dervish and Paragon following close behind.

New UI isn't really a silver bullet solution to all of this.

Frostlight · Dec 12, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

So before prophecising gloom and doom to DoA, consider that it's at aproximately the same level as all high-end quest areas. The only difference is that the farmers haven't moved in yet, and perhaps never will, at least not to extent known in other places. But taking an objective look, farming(=grinding) is what keeps areas busy, not questing.

A good point and if farming and chest running are what ultimately sustains an area, then naturally we can't expect them to be interested in anything but the most efficient and tested builds/exploits.

But I would say DoA is still different in the lack of even initial interest from the questers, explorers and other non-farmers, judging by the quick drop in district numbers.

As for Urgoz and The Deep, until they give permanent free access, it's hard to say how much people really want to play those missions. My guess is, not more than once or twice, when both farmers and non-farmers have better choices in UW, FoW and SF, and even challenge missions.

Vahn Roi · Dec 12, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

In DoA, no such build has yet been proven to work. The closest, and possible only, is the usual tank/heavy dps/bond/prot/heal combo, or the trapper/nuker combination. They are simply brute force. What these builds completely ignore, is any kind of shutdown/denial/interrupt/damage prevention abilities. And considering the overabundance of casters in all those areas, such techniques help much more that simply trying to absorb the damage.

There is hope for the Mesmer in DoA. Splended :3

Anarkii · Dec 12, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostlight

As for Urgoz and The Deep, until they give permanent free access, it's hard to say how much people really want to play those missions. My guess is, not more than once or twice, when both farmers and non-farmers have better choices in UW, FoW and SF, and even challenge missions.

I still think there's a massive potential in Urgoz and The Deep. For one thing, the Zodiac skins are the best-looking skins in the game, in my opinion. All of the Nightfall skins were disappointing, and while I havent seen the tormented weapons, if you go by the icons, it doesnt look all that cool. Besides Zodiac and other rare chest drops, the guarantee of having 3 neat green drops at the end, which still sell nicely, is definitely appetizing to people. (Urgoz's Longbow still sells for over 100K).

For DoA's sake, I hope the tormented stuff look badass and Mallyx drops some sweet items as well! Otherwise, it'll be yet another place gone to waste in a few weeks...

Vahn Roi · Dec 12, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Kind of a lame question, but forgive me for not searching through 84 pages of posts.

What does the Coffer of Whispers do?