Curse

Orinn · Dec 03, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I was reading one of the closed threads, and the OP there brought up the idea of "smart" difficulty. Making the areas difficult because you face monsters with well-thought-out skill bars, ones that work together and give you a hard time because they use skills with a lot of synergy, is "smart" difficulty. You can work around it, create new builds and come up with new uses for old skills.

What DoA offers instead is a brute force approach to difficulty: raise the level of the mobs, and give them skills to make them more dangerous. Add environmental effects that are really only effects that hurt the players. There is no way to build around the brutal environmental effects, or to bring yourself up to the level of the ridiculous skills that the monsters are using, so wqhat you wind up with are one-trick builds that can ONLY beat DoA, usually built around the concept that Anet introduced itself: damage, damage, damage. Hit them hard, kill them first, and don't use any skill that isn't optimal, because non-cookie-cutter builds just can't stand up to the damage being thrown back at you.

Strategy and tactics aren't about just escalating force, it's about the intelligent application of force. Just making individual mobs tougher, giving them more damage and more HP, while weakening the players with environmental effects, isn't FUN. Like I said in another post, it's less fun when one side gets to make up their own rules.

CyberNigma · Dec 03, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

lol, working on bugs.. those ppl don't work on real bugs, they work on anything that 1) helps them in their crusade againt the bots/pro farmers or 2) that stops their precious championship tournament from getting hosed....

MithranArkanere · Dec 03, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

You may have any opinion you desire.
However, do not assume or believe that you represent the majority of players, for any reason, or opinion.

That's just..... silly.

Not even the 20% of the players register and use forums like these, but it is true that the average player is represented in them. You could say that forum represantation are averagely accurate statistic of opinions about the game.

Around the 70% of this thread states: "I don't like it as it is" so, you could say that is what 70% of the players say, with a 10% of margin error.

aohige · Dec 03, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I don't believe the main issue of DOA is the difficulty here.

The main and underlying issue is the req's to get a Ritualist HERO. There are many average players such as my wife who would enjoy a Ritualist HERO I don't expect her to ever get one because of the difficulty of DOA. These players might not be elite because they don't have the time to grind, but their concern is legit nonetheless. After all she beat nightfall and unlocked all other HERO's why make this one HERO so dang difficult to get?

and please don't bring up the Elite argument this has nothing to do with Elite this has to do with unlocking a Factions class HERO for the general public.

I agree with you on the issue of Rt Hero.
Having a Hero as prize for an elite mission is a cool idea, but IMO, he shouldn't be the only hero of a certain class available. Another Rt hero added for Factions owners would be a good idea.

However, I think in time you'll find gaining Razah to be easier.
Even if you can't complete the DoA quest, all you need is the four gemstones...if I'm not mistaken.
They don't drop much, but each run gurantees you one, if you finish.
Eventually, the stones will come down in price. My bet is in time, it'll be 6-10k each.
It's still a too hefty a price to pay for getting a hero, but thankfully, it's an option we have. Players who can't do the elite mission/quest can buy the gemstones, and unlock the hero.

Of course, my aforementioned suggestion of making a separate Rt hero that's easily available, I think, is a better option, and hopefully A.net will hear these words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Not even the 20% of the players register and use forums like these, but it is true that the average player is represented in them. You could say that forum represantation are averagely accurate statistic of opinions about the game.

Around the 70% of this thread states: "I don't like it as it is" so, you could say that is what 70% of the players say, with a 10% of margin error.

I believe there's a Necro skill called "Vocal Minority".
It's a phrase to keep in mind in ANY forum. It's the nature of forums.

Innuendo · Dec 03, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

IMO, the only thing that needs to be done is increase the team size to 12. The other elite missions have a team size of 12, why not this one?

Minwanabi · Dec 03, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Question.. has anyone actually finished the Mallyx quest in its entirety? I'm simply curious because, to my knowledge, none of us actually know /anything/ about the elite mission. All we have experience with are the explorable areas and the quests therein. Perhaps the elite mission will be 12 people, just like the Deep and Urgoz, but these explorables are normal explorables, in that they only allow 8 man groups.

To the main point of this thread, all I ask is that everyone gives it more time before complaining. On day two of DoA, I beat the City with a PuG that contained an assassin AND a ritualist. I CANNOT comprehend how people continue to complain about classism. Honestly, we took two classes that some would argue are the most useless in PvE into the hardest area of the game and won, as a PuG. So while I am SURE there will someday be a cookie cutter build that doesn't contain all 10 classes, that isn't to say it's not possible. Take some initiative, and start your own groups, I guarantee you that if you're relatively intelligent, and competent at playing your class, you'll have some measure of success.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Dec 03, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Minwanabi, i used a ritualist in the gate of madness (well ranger/rit hero)... a proper ritualist is a boon in pve. In pvp however they are less frequently seen...

and to come back to the point of not representing the majority. You might be correct. But seeing the amount of people on hte first day of the launch drop from 10districts to 4 districts during a weekend doesn't bode well... On top of this hearing different people complain while playing doa doesn't help much either. Some people might find this fun. I do not. the 7 othe rpeople from my last group didn't either. The 7 people from my members groups before didn't either. the 8 members of my guildies group didn't either. And lastly the 8 members within the group of my guildeis didn't like it either. Without even calculating the people in the other groups i have been in. Not that we didn't have a sense of progress... but spending 4 hours on each entering and having to run after nearly every break off off aggro from the tank after it had been keeping it for a couple secs ain't fun...

And please tune down vocal minority, its to great of a counter after the nerf of paragon shouts...

grmbl wasting all this time i could have spend getting my monk up to stuff actually having fun in stead of being frustrated...

geminisaga · Dec 03, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

took my grp 6h approx to finish the city with 60 dps etc...

crazy diamond · Dec 03, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

I was reading one of the closed threads, and the OP there brought up the idea of "smart" difficulty. Making the areas difficult because you face monsters with well-thought-out skill bars, ones that work together and give you a hard time because they use skills with a lot of synergy, is "smart" difficulty. You can work around it, create new builds and come up with new uses for old skills.

What DoA offers instead is a brute force approach to difficulty: raise the level of the mobs, and give them skills to make them more dangerous. Add environmental effects that are really only effects that hurt the players. There is no way to build around the brutal environmental effects, or to bring yourself up to the level of the ridiculous skills that the monsters are using, so wqhat you wind up with are one-trick builds that can ONLY beat DoA, usually built around the concept that Anet introduced itself: damage, damage, damage. Hit them hard, kill them first, and don't use any skill that isn't optimal, because non-cookie-cutter builds just can't stand up to the damage being thrown back at you.

Strategy and tactics aren't about just escalating force, it's about the intelligent application of force. Just making individual mobs tougher, giving them more damage and more HP, while weakening the players with environmental effects, isn't FUN. Like I said in another post, it's less fun when one side gets to make up their own rules.

I agree with most of this. The AI isn't as dirt stupid as it used to be, but it still seems to rely more on brute force, greater numbers, and higher levels for difficulty. Which does come across as pretty lazy of them.

Also as mentioned before, it's not just the fact that it's so hard, it's that it's extremely unfun. And the amount of work involved just to get another ordinary hero is ridiculous. He should be replaced by something better deserving as a reward and be given another method of aquiring. I could see myself pushing through the DoA to get a variable hero as was originally planned. But for a regular Rit? Get real.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Dec 03, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

only for a variable hero... not even close...

now for the ability to use an entire party of heroes... now that could maybe entice me...

Neven15 · Dec 03, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

i just need Titan Gemstone to have all 4 i would trade it for Coffer and take screenshots and tell u what is it

so if some1 has it il buy it

caeleth · Dec 03, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Ok, I've read through most of this thread, though not all, so if someones said this already, im sorry

I love DoA. I've only been once, and we cleared half of the city before the warrior quit and we had to give up. Sure, its hard. Its not insanely hard though.

People will rack up a few deaths, but so what? work off the dp. wouldnt be challenging if no one died.

Keeping the party alive is not a problem. We had two monks, one heal and one prot with sb. catching spikes was not a problem most of the time.

we did bring winter and mantra of frost, but other than that we had a plain old balanced build: warrior, ranger, necro, mesmer, ele, two monks (and sth else since im plainly missing one...). the only important thing is watching aggro, pulling a few at a time and knowing when to run away. if you're calling yourself good at gw, then you know all about those things already. so what's the problem?

We didnt have an uber team in any respects. Good monks and tank, and decent players, but I can think of plenty of improvements... For example, the nuker brought flare and both the mes and necro racked up heavy dp before they learned to stay far back. But thats how you learn

if you cant do, wait for cookiecutter build or just dont play DoA... you have the entire rest of the game to play with (which is what you paid for, this is just extra), so go have fun and let those of us who want a challenge keep DoA (and getting a decent team will be easier once you all leave anyway

)

Tuesg · Dec 03, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by caeleth

if you cant do, wait for cookiecutter build or just dont play DoA... you have the entire rest of the game to play with (which is what you paid for, this is just extra), so go have fun and let those of us who want a challenge keep DoA (and getting a decent team will be easier once you all leave anyway

).

Something that is mentioned with in the manual is not an extra

Karlos · Dec 03, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Can we stop with the attempts to substantiate one "opinion" over the other. Presently, there are facts and there are opinions...

Facts are:
1) The Domain of Anguish is hard, it's challenging, opponents are WAY overpowered.
2) Drops are no different than FoW. You can get non-max white and blue drops in the Fissure. Chest drops are VERY nice (and unlike the fissure, you can inscribe them, so all you're looking for is low req). In fact, the possibility of greens and Gems dropping in Anguish makes it more lucrative than good old Urgoz and the Deep. When Urgoz first came out, you would grind for 5 hours straight, only to have THREE people get greens and the rest get shafted.
3) It is a FACT that ArenaNet is not exactly a company of morons who have no idea how to make games. They make millions of dollars designing games, no one on this thread (as far as I know) does. So, to assume they have no clue what they are doing or do not care about providing entertainment for their customers is non-sense. If all they cared about was catering to 1% of the player-base, you think NCSoft would have funded them? Forget about your disagreement with how they do things. In the end, it is a BUSINESS. You think NCSoft (or ANet for this matter) would keep pumping money into a venture that drives away its customers?

Opinions are:
1) Majority/Plurality of the player base finds it unejoyable.
2) It's "too" hard for the player base to handle, it will remain accessible only to a tiny percentage of the player base.

Both of these arguments are highly subjective and immersed in speculation/perception. Not in actual study. I have been playing it for 12 hours straight now, and people are a LOT more willing to try now and a LOT more aware of what needs to be done. This is MY perception and my subjective analysis. The american districts last night were 13. People are seeing results on forums and the wiki and are realizing they can do this.

reetkever · Dec 03, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuesg

Something that is mentioned with in the manual is not an extra

Manual is a bunch of lies though, it said Razah would be a variable profession. I wonder what else what manual says is bc... *reads*

Anyway, it's clear now that to survive in certain area's in DoA, at least 3 skills are required, and at least certain professions... cookie cutter ftw - Clone Wars Nightfall is a succes :I

What's the problem with having a 12 man party? We have better chances then, and professions like mesmer and assassin can also join. And people who want to do it the ahrd way just do it with 8 people. GG, everyone happy. So... why not?

crazy diamond · Dec 03, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuesg

Something that is mentioned with in the manual is not an extra

Gotta love the fact that Razah went from being a special variable hero, to no more than a regular Ritualist, and to top it off, made him far harder to aquire than any other. So essentially, he is no longer special, yet he is being treated as such.

And you gotta love the condescending attitude of some people in this thread. As if disliking this is based on lack of skill, as opposed to all the people stating that it's just not fun or worth the rewards.

Hyaon · Dec 03, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Just saying at least Torcqua mission is do-able, took 4 hours with pugs though :E I don't consider myself elite so..here you go. I was really against the difficulty but I soon saw that with the right build and the right people it does make it better to get through. We even lost a monk halfway and still we soldiered on. Only thing that seems to rank highly on the musthave list is T-I-M-E. [having a brain should take priority actually

]

Kcp · Dec 03, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

DoA is the greatest thing to ever happen to GW's. The difficulty brings your characters back to reality and adds enjoyment to the game once again. I'm loving it so much I don't know if I should finish bringing other characters through the game or keep playing DoA with my characters already there. What a dilemna.

Good job Anet.

icedragon981 · Dec 03, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyaon

Just saying at least Torcqua mission is do-able, took 4 hours with pugs though :E I don't consider myself elite so..here you go. I was really against the difficulty but I soon saw that with the right build and the right people it does make it better to get through. We even lost a monk halfway and still we soldiered on. Only thing that seems to rank highly on the musthave list is T-I-M-E. [having a brain should take priority actually

]

Congrats on beating city, but that's pretty old news from about 20 pages ago...

Bloodthirsty Badass · Dec 03, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Completed the city last night with a balanced team. Two monks, paragon, ranger, three eles and 1 warrior. I played the warrior with a build I threw together fairly quickly. The key is you have to take aggro, hold it and be able to take the punishment. There are three bosses you have to beat to finish city. Lord Jadoth lvl 30 paragon, as well as a lvl 28 monk and lvl 28 paragon.
Turep, Maker of Orphans is an apt name for him. After you kill them you open a chest and retrieve your gemstone.

It was really fun and I have no idea how many candy canes I ate in the process.

With your gemstone in hand you can enter they stygian area directly as a gate opens but the touch pwned us very quickly. Will need to look at that.

Might have gone slightly better with an ss necro instead of one of the eles but the eles worked quite well.

Thanks guys and gg.