Curse

freekedoutfish · Jan 09, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

Dud. Noone's using it for trading and they're STILL spamming !Local. I _never_ see people using it for group finding for missions/quests either :/

The problem is, it's still local city only. For Defend North Kyrta Province, some people would want to start in LA, some in ToA, some in Beetletun...

You suggest that when something is posted, that it should span every location in the entire game? throughout ever district?

Your talking potentially hundreds or thousands of posts.

If something like that was to be done, we should have a list of locations on that continent to post to. But only locations you have discovered and only to a max of 3 places at one time. Otherwise we would have serious lag issues and serious difficulty reading them all.

Mysterial · Jan 09, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I think the main problem is that the primary value it has is seeing parties in other districts, but most outposts only have one district, so it doesn't really matter much. Plus it has such a small text limit oftentimes you can't even fully describe what you're looking for.

RodyPA · Jan 09, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I think the only problem with the Party Search is that it's too generic for some of the things people would like to use it.

If all you're using it for is to get a party for a mission, then it works as advertised. You can see how large the group is, doesn't matter which district, some info on what they're looking for, etc.

If you're using it to get a party for a quest, then it's a little rough because you need to be in a town that's a common starting point. But still, it can work well (although the description limit can hinder).

If you're using it for trade, it can work poorly because it's only for the town, and there's not a lot of room to give a description.

The thing to realize is that it's not really built for a global trade system - in several ways. As said, a global trade would have a huge number of posts. I could see them reworking Party Search to have a separate, global trade tab with more description and better filtering and searching. I say separate tab because that's heavy overkill for mission search. It might be nice in quest searching, but I think most quests have a common accepted starting point, so it's easy to go there and say 'LFG Breaking the Broken'.

In general, it works for its primary purpose - a cross-district party search. It seems to me that the trade was an additional bolt on they decided to try out. I also think they're testing it to expand into a trade system later.

Str0b0 · Jan 09, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

You can hardly consider something a dud because people don't use it. The offline people persisting in the list thing is kind of annoying but that's fixable. Honeslty if more people used the stupid thing then maybe, just maybe it would be worthwhile. Instead I see people still spamming LFGOMGWTFBBQ in towns trying to get a group instead of just using the feature provided to them. Don't blame this on Anet, blame it on your fellow players.

trf2374 · Jan 09, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Guildwars is about the only Online Game were most players wouldn't even notice if it suddenly became a Single Player Offline Game. The party search option is fine, it's just that almost every long time player has by now developed a hefty superiority complex. They just think they're so much better than everyone else and are gods gift to the game and as such, should not have to deal with infidels.
The partyfunction is not at fault, the community itself is. The only thing that may help is that you probably wouldn't want to party with the Elitecrowd anyways as they're mostly antisocial to the brim.

Is it elitest to want to complete a mission/quest within a reasonable amount of time, with a reasonably high amount of success? I don't mind a botched mission/quest every so often, it happens. What I do mind is this:

Afkers -- there's been times in PuGs when the mission starts and people are already going afk. This will continue throughout the mission. Some are so bad where it takes twice as long.

Leavers -- I'm sure some of these are legit and really get disconnected. Hopefully the new reconnect feature solves this. However, I imagine most of the leavers leave for whatever reason, a few of them good reasons, most of them bad reasons.

Immaturity -- Drawing on the map. Every other word cussing.

Elitests -- Only take certain classes, even when all classes are good, if played well.

Traders -- Mid mission, I don't want to be pestered about a gold I happend to pick up. I especially don't want to be bothered about it the entire mission.

Newbies -- I don't mind newbies, we were all new at one time. What I do mind is newbies who insist they're right. I've had monks whose only healing spell was MENDING, and wouldn't listen to a word I said when I tried to explain that was horrible (was at Elona). Also had players confounded why my level 14 Ele had more energy than their 20 Ele (Thirsty River). And I've had people tell me that since I was low level (14 at the time) my armor wasn't as good as theirs, even after I said I had max armor, so I'd be fine (desert mission)

Unskilled -- not the same as newbies. I'm talking about people who just plain suck, or who insist on using builds that just don't work.

Seriously, most PuGs are just horrible because of these reasons and more. Why would I want to subject myself to this when I can do most missions/quests in half the time and have a greater chance of success with an AI that is generally smarter and nicer than most PuGers.

Another prime example to me is Thunderhead keep. Back when it was just Prophecies, I remember people crying how hard this mission was. My wife and I made it there. We had max armor and max damage weapons, and that's about it (greens weren't around then). No Sup runes, 1 elite each. Went through, first time with henchies and made it look easy.

THK - my Elmo. I decide to PuG it. 10 PuG failures later, I hench it to success. Few groups made it through the keep. 2 made it to where you protect the king. No PuGs finished.

Alleji · Jan 09, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I think the lack of party search forced the community to overhype the feature and when anet finally introduced it, it didn't live up to the expectations.

Personally, I haven't joined a PvE pug in the past year, so I really don't pay attention to how much the feature gets used.

Myria · Jan 09, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

A system that tries to do everything and does nothing well will inevitably and predictably fail.

Party Search Option? More cross-district spam propogation system, and not even very good at doing that.

phallanxian · Jan 09, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

THK - my Elmo. I decide to PuG it. 10 PuG failures later, I hench it to success. Few groups made it through the keep. 2 made it to where you protect the king. No PuGs finished.

I've attempted thunderhead 9 or 10 times with pug and only failed maybe 3 times. On the whole i have very few problems playing with pug's and i would rather have a surprise to make more of a challange then the silence of henchies but in the end guild teams ftw.

On the subject of the party search i would be happy to use it but the only outpsot i've been in with any group entries was TOA wich was a list of 55 monks and ss necros

TB_ · Jan 09, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozsparrow

There is already a general consensus starting to permeate on several forums that the new party search option is flawed and a waste of time as no-one uses it.

Party finder sucks, wasted 2 years, half assed etc we all know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozsparrow

The purpose of the game, people, is co-operative play, after all!

This is where you are wrong, its not co-operative, its competitive.

Jetdoc · Jan 09, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB_

This is where you are wrong, its not co-operative, its competitive.

Competitive in PvP. Co-operative in PvE.

If the online experience is meant solely for PvP, then A-Net has terrible advertised their product.

From guildwars.com...

Join a New Generation of Online Roleplaying

Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. You can meet new friends in towns or outposts, form a party, and then go tackle a quest together. Your party always has its own unique copy of the quest map, so camping, kill-stealing, and long lines to complete quests are all things of the past. Within a Guild Wars quest you have unprecedented freedom and power to manipulate the world around you; with the dynamic quest system, your accomplishments have a unique influence on your future.

gene terrodon · Jan 09, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Co-operative plays is not necessarily the purpose of the game. Guild Wars' retail box states something like: "Play with your friends or others, band with other people or skillful AI henchmen". It is supposed to be a choice for each player if he wants to play with other people or not. Not a forced-PUG game.

Just because you, ozsparrow, like helping newbies it doesn't mean everyone else has to.

Most players don't like losing 10 000x times in a row due to horrible PUG players when they can Master the same mission on their own the first try with AI allies instead. Which is why PUGs are not popular. As it should be. If PUG players want PUGs not to be dead, then the average joe GW player needs to stop being a horrible player. But that's won't happen so things are as the must be.

It's not "elitist" to not PUG. Bad players should waste their own time exclusively, not the time of good players.

As for the new party search option: it's not good enough since it doesn't span all areas of the game at once, and also it does not even span all districts of the same type at once. Ie: During Wintersday being in a high-numbered district means you didn't see any of the stuff in the party search screen, even though there was a lot of it there in the lower disticts of the same outpost. I'm not sure what's up with that.

For the party search option to be effective it would have to span every outpost - of different types - so as players who want to do stuff they have already done again and/or help newbies can be recruited from towns they are not currently in.

What you are saying is broad, inaccurate and highly opinionated.
Explain what makes a player bad...is it because they wont bow down and use some cookie cutter build that was posted in 100 forums? Is it because they won’t do "as you say?"
Yeah, there are the Leroy Jenkins wammos and the healing breeze/mending monks, but in my experience, those are few and far between.
The downfall of most PUGs, in my experience, has been people like you.
People who think they are the almighty, all knowing GW player and anything anyone else says or does is wrong.
I have rank blah or I have done this mission w/e many times, or, my favorite, "you need such and such a build posted in such and such a forum for this mission."
I have never read anywhere in a GW manual that states you need a specific build for a specific mission.
It's just a joke.
What works for you may not work for someone else. Yeah, and I see now the people saying "well, that build is the most effective for that mission."
Well how in the heck do you know that?
You haven't used any build other than ones you find in the forum, either because 1. You are too lazy to come up with your own build or 2. You do not possess the aptitude to come up with a build that is effective on your own. (When I say you, I am speaking of all of the Con-Puggers). Either way, your contributions to the GW community are counter-productive, at best.
This notion of everyone in PUGs are terrible players is not true.
To further my argument, it is human nature to remember and exacerbate the negative and to forget the positives. You see it everyday. Why does the news report mostly negative stories? Why are most of the popular TV shows about crime or people just being downright mean and nasty to each other (read reality shows)? That is what the general public focuses on and remembers and that is how the GW community is.
To say that there never is or have been an effective PUG you have worked with, is a downright lie. To say most of the PUGs you have participated in were terrible is not accurate either. To say I don't remember the good groups, because all I want to focus on is the jerks is the most accurate statement anyone in the GW community can make regarding any portion of the game, be it trading, pugging or PvPing. Plain and simple.

blood4blood · Jan 09, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

My experience (subjective, opinionated)...

New party search feature: Nice idea, but if no one uses it, it doesn't matter - maybe if it was the default party screen when in a town or outpost, so people didn't so easily forget about or ignore it. For trade, GW desparately needs an auction house of some sort instead, as has been requested innumerable times in the past.

PUG's: I've played other games, mostly PvP, and I know the importance of good teamwork and coordination. Regardless of the skill of the individual players, the vast majority of PUG's will always lack good communication, teamwork, and coordination. The AI is far more predictable and controllable, and thus easier to manage effectively. Throw in the occasional very bad PUG (AFK'ers, ragequitters, whiners, cursers, map-drawers, etc.) and for most experienced players, it's simply easier and more efficient to use the AI than to take a chance on a PUG.

Omega X · Jan 09, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Guildwars is about the only Online Game were most players wouldn't even notice if it suddenly became a Single Player Offline Game. The party search option is fine, it's just that almost every long time player has by now developed a hefty superiority complex. They just think they're so much better than everyone else and are gods gift to the game and as such, should not have to deal with infidels.
The partyfunction is not at fault, the community itself is. The only thing that may help is that you probably wouldn't want to party with the Elitecrowd anyways as they're mostly antisocial to the brim.

Nice Generalization there.

The only thing I've seen from long time players is that they learned not to rely on PuGs anymore. That wasn't a decision made yesterday. That is a decision that came from months of playing the game and coming to a conclusion that the majority of PuGGers are not....umm....sane? And almost every time they give a PuG a chance, the whole thing falls to pieces.

But I will agree that the community shares the blame. So much craziness, degeneration and ignorance among people playing have only driven them apart into areas of the game that feels respectable to them. Which means Guilds and Alliances that have rules they abide by and share the same interests that also avoid the craziness and ignorance of random morons, Friends list of nice people they have met and whom they only want to play with, and a very full ignore list. Therefore creating their own communities within the game and avoiding the drama. Since there are no GMs to manage the game from the inside, things only gets worse over time.

Navaros · Jan 09, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

What you are saying is broad, inaccurate and highly opinionated.

To say that there never is or have been an effective PUG you have worked with, is a downright lie. To say most of the PUGs you have participated in were terrible is not accurate either. To say I don't remember the good groups, because all I want to focus on is the jerks is the most accurate statement anyone in the GW community can make regarding any portion of the game, be it trading, pugging or PvPing. Plain and simple.

What I said was quite accurate indeed.

Sure it's highly opinionated - what else can reasonably be expected after the party dying zillions of times solely due to horrible PUG allies and then proceeding to Master most of the NF missions on the very first try with all AI? PUGs are worthy of wrathful opinions due to all the downright stupid, needless failures they cause and needless time they waste.

You are correct that it would be a lie to say I have never been with an effective PUG, but I did not say that.

To say that most PUGs I have participated in are terrible is immaculately accurate.

I'd estimate at least 90% of PUGs I've been in throughout all 3 chapters were downright terrible. This experience is typical of most players. That is why PUGs as a method of playing are mostly dead.

I don't remember the good groups as much because they are vastly out-numbered by hordes and hordes of terrible PUG players. It only makes sense to devote memory proportionate to that reality.

Bottom line: if PUGs in general were not painfully terrible, then they would not be a mostly-dead method of playing the game.

birdfoot · Jan 09, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Guildwars is about the only Online Game were most players wouldn't even notice if it suddenly became a Single Player Offline Game. The party search option is fine, it's just that almost every long time player has by now developed a hefty superiority complex. They just think they're so much better than everyone else and are gods gift to the game and as such, should not have to deal with infidels.
The partyfunction is not at fault, the community itself is. The only thing that may help is that you probably wouldn't want to party with the Elitecrowd anyways as they're mostly antisocial to the brim.

I agree with you there. However, the current party search system could be improved further to support for those that aren't really affected by the community syndrome. Let's take for instance that the party search system allowed for match-making players globally, regardless of which location/district players are in.

I can roughly visualize the inherent features in this way, the player can:

call-out the party seach interface regardless of his/her non-explorable location (perhaps also as an item added into the menu) and the search works globally
in the interface, select which mission/quest he/she is interested to do (he/she also needs to have that quest in the log and have fulfilled any prerequisites for doing mission) and the system will return a result of other players who are also interested
in the interface, whisper that players he wishes to join up with and form the party (again in the interface) and the whole party will be taken to the location designated as the start-off point for the mission/quest
choose anonymous match-making to randomly play with anyone who is also interested in the same mission/quest

Possible obstacles are:

ANet needs to have the list of all missions and quests for each chapter, and hopefully, it's not over-whelming at the server end to list them all
A player must not be able to select missions or quests that are not present in the quest log (if a player does not have a particular chapter, no related quest/mission can appear in his/her quest log either)

A sample workflow:

Player A opens up party search interface in guild hall (for example) and decides to look for a party to do Dunes of Despair mission:
1. Player A prefers to manually find the party:
  - Player A selects "Dunes of Despair" and click "Find Players" button
  - A list of players also interested in that missions is displayed
  - Player A whispers by clicking on "Whisper" button or invites by clicking on "Send Invitation" button to listed players (at this point of time, Player A is designated as leader since he initiated the invitation)
  - Players B, C, D, E, F accepted the invitation and the roster is shown on the right-hand side of the party search interface, team chat is also active at this time
  - When everyone is ready, they click a checkbox next to their names in the checkbox to represent readiness or another simpler alternative would be to drop the idea of the checkbox and simply have communication done via team chat
  - Team is ready, Player A (the leader) clicks on "Start" button to invoke the mission. At this time, the party is mapped to the location first and the mission automatically starts. *Note: If it is a quest, then the party is just mapped over to where the quest is obtained
2. Player A prefers to have the system find him a party
  - Player A clicks "Auto-form Party" and a message is displayed to show that search is underway
  - System randomly picks players (like Random Arenas but preferably with a given rule that a monk must always be present), forms the party, maps party to location and starts mission

Anonymous play might be rather daunting, but I feel that it really depends on players themselves. After all, if the party is automatically formed without the preference of a roster, the party needs to adapt their gameplay and it may turn out to be surprisingly interesting experience. Only thing here is that a monk profession should always be picked by the system and not all monks may be healers so the idea may need more thorough thinking.

ozsparrow · Jan 09, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

What you are saying is broad, inaccurate and highly opinionated.
Explain what makes a player bad...is it because they wont bow down and use some cookie cutter build that was posted in 100 forums? Is it because they won’t do "as you say?"
Yeah, there are the Leroy Jenkins wammos and the healing breeze/mending monks, but in my experience, those are few and far between.
The downfall of most PUGs, in my experience, has been people like you.
People who think they are the almighty, all knowing GW player and anything anyone else says or does is wrong.
I have rank blah or I have done this mission w/e many times, or, my favorite, "you need such and such a build posted in such and such a forum for this mission."
I have never read anywhere in a GW manual that states you need a specific build for a specific mission.
It's just a joke.
What works for you may not work for someone else. Yeah, and I see now the people saying "well, that build is the most effective for that mission."
Well how in the heck do you know that?
You haven't used any build other than ones you find in the forum, either because 1. You are too lazy to come up with your own build or 2. You do not possess the aptitude to come up with a build that is effective on your own. (When I say you, I am speaking of all of the Con-Puggers). Either way, your contributions to the GW community are counter-productive, at best.
This notion of everyone in PUGs are terrible players is not true.
To further my argument, it is human nature to remember and exacerbate the negative and to forget the positives. You see it everyday. Why does the news report mostly negative stories? Why are most of the popular TV shows about crime or people just being downright mean and nasty to each other (read reality shows)? That is what the general public focuses on and remembers and that is how the GW community is.
To say that there never is or have been an effective PUG you have worked with, is a downright lie. To say most of the PUGs you have participated in were terrible is not accurate either. To say I don't remember the good groups, because all I want to focus on is the jerks is the most accurate statement anyone in the GW community can make regarding any portion of the game, be it trading, pugging or PvPing. Plain and simple.

Well said Gene (albeit a little lengthy, but your opinion is basically what I was trying to instil in my thread).

Frankly, I am quite surprised at the amount of venom towards other players being shown here by so-called "long-timers" in the game!

It must be wonderful to be able to say that you are a player who has TOTALLY mastered all of the wisdom of how to play this game and to therefore have it all wrapped up such that to play GW with others would only "ruin your experience".

I also take umbrage with the fact that this game is not marketed as co-operative play. IMHO, it is! When I was choosing GW over WoW, one of the redeeming features of GW (for me) was its co-operative play ethos with a distinct lack of churning and farming to achieve max levelling. I dont know about you guys but I was sick of having my low-level char continually pummeled by a Level 60 with all of the best items/weaps and absoultely no way of competing against that fact!

My thread was aimed at trying to state that I have seen a distinct push against PUGs of late and I was hoping that the party search function would in some way alleviate this trend as it would provide an excellent user-friendly forum to easily pick up players for quests/missions.

Instead, sadly, I have reached the conclusion that no amount of party search function will work with comments/thoughts as shown here permeating the GW game.

Perhaps people should realise that this is a GAME after all and IMHO lighten up a bit when confronted with the foibles and failures of our fellow human players!

For example, last night I did a mission with 2 ten year olds, 2 fifteen year olds and an eighteen year old who ably led us through a mission I could have done in my sleep (yes, I am a "mature-age" player!) We successfully completed it (including bonus) and had a happy group, albeit we had all of the "irritations" espoused by users of this forum (AFKs, drops, leaves, re-enters, prem aggro, squabbles, disobedience, swearing, map drawing etc etc) - sounds like my homelife and family! But, in the end, I think all 6 of us enjoyed the experience (after all, isn't that the "name of the game").

When did "winning at all costs" and "I'm alright Jack, who cares about him/her" become the mantle cry of humanity!

I'll stop now, I'm starting to rant!

kazjun · Jan 10, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I like the new party search option, though I only use it for trade. I rarely see it actually being used for party formation. Though I'm hoping it'll pick up over time.

As for pugs, well, I only do it for fun. First time through with a character where I need to do a mission or quest, I'll go with friends or take my heroes and hench it. After, if I want some fun, I'll pug whatever again. Succeed or fail, doesn't matter to me, so I don't really have the pug hate many seem to have. But that of course depends on my not doing things for myself at the time. Working on a new ranger right now so not really pugging much. In my breaks, I'll take my warrior around and pug here and there. On a side note though, I've noticed that tyrian pugs are usually pretty good (probably vets going through with new characters) and factions pugs can be pretty good. Though there don't really seem to be enough people around for a full pug at many places I've been. Nightfall pugs are really varied though. Some can be pretty good, but on the whole many are worst than those in the other two chapters. The way some play, makes me think that the only reason they're pugging is cause they can't cut it otherwise. Some are so bad you'd be better off it they decided to afk right at the start so you can get things done without them draining your monks and res sigs.

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 10, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

The problem with party search is only, as has been said, nobody uses it.

For missions, it would work fine if everyone who wanted a party was actually using it, and not spamming LFGs. I've been into outposts where there are ten or 15 people LFG and not 1 in the party search. This is a problem with user mentality, not the search button. Anyhow, I think as new players who don't know to avoid the button start using it, it will gradually get more popular, but we, as vets, can help that process by simply using it when we're setting up for a mission.

As for me, when I want to do a mission, I go to town, click the party search, then set up my builds and stuff. If no one invites by the time I'm done merching, skill setup, and reading the GWiki walkthrough of the mission, I hench it.

Not to prescribe to everyone else, but if you were going to stand around in town for a bit anyway, the search party is a good way to make yourself available without taking the time and energy to spam.

On a second thought, I'd expand party search to include not just an outpost, but a whole region. If I could search for people in, say all of Vabbi, it would be easy to find someone who wants to go pick up some Trade Contract quests or go treasure hunting. At the moment, the only real use for the button is making mission parties.

Sooty · Jan 10, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

It is a worthwhile addition - useful for trade since it works across districts and is adequate but under-utilised for finding groups.

However with trade, yes i do think it is an improvement but if it is anet's answer to our calls for an overhaul of the trade system I would have to say i'm disappointed and i think there's a lot more that could be done in this regard.

There are numerous well-considered ideas for new trade systems in the game suggestions forum, some of which i think would be very useful and effective. So anet, please keep working on a new trade system. The new party window is a good first step but i think a lot of people would appreciate a larger scale trade upgrade.

korcan · Jan 10, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

i think the party search is adequate for missions & quests. but for trading i have two complaints. the fact that i need to stay in an outpost for my msg to remain in the party search window and the limited amount of characters for a description.

it would be nice if our messages in the party search remained and we could still get whispers from potential buyers even if we were to leave for a different outpost.