Curse

Griff Mon · Jan 10, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

I'm starting to think Anet made a mistake releasing it as online only. They should have gone the Diablo/NWN path, made it an offline single player game (with 7 heroes/henchies) and an online mode for co-op/pvp (without heroes). At least that way all the single players could remain offline and stop making it feel pointless to "lfg" these days.

Um, no.

That would mean everything would have been stored on the local computer and you would have had wholesale duping and hacking of items, attributes, etc.

Xenrath · Jan 10, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

As mentioned above in a few posts, the odd bad apple plus the inability for the group to do anything about it, that's part of the problem. Aside from the "I would always play with AI" folks who, imho shouldn't be playing an online game anyway and would be best suited to single player offline, perhaps mechanisms to help deal with asses/afk'ers etc. could help alleviate some of the negativity?

It's something been brought up before, e.g. vote kicks.. yet unfortunately always some who shout it down for some reason (oh noes! I might get kicked deliberately when I didn't do anything! usually). The point is if co-op teamplay can and does work in other online games, possibly more so than current GW trends, and the players themselves maybe are no better or worse in ability, then maybe it's these anti grief mechanisms which are needed to help out in GW?

If however, it just boils down to "others can't play properly" then really it's your own problem because you'll find other games and the internet in general isn't going to get much better. Perhaps you should reconsider why you even play multiplayer games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff Mon

That would mean everything would have been stored on the local computer and you would have had wholesale duping and hacking of items, attributes, etc.

Note seperate modes of play. Single player/offline chars would not be playable online, and thus hacking/duping wouldn't be possible. For the multiplayer mode it would all be stored on Anet's servers.

pingu666 · Jan 10, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

pugs are more fun tho, heros is lonely..

plus in nf u often need 7/8 (1 less person) and heros can easily fill holes in the group..

Navaros · Jan 10, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

If however, it just boils down to "others can't play properly" then really it's your own problem because you'll find other games and the internet in general isn't going to get much better. Perhaps you should reconsider why you even play multiplayer games.

In other games success or failure does not hinge so heavily on terrible players ruining your team.

In any case it's not those who hate PUGs who have the problem. They are not complaining about this issue. It is the minority of players who have some illogical desire to constantly play with horrible strangers who are complaining, therefore the problem about this issue rests solely on their shoulders.

People play Guild Wars for success and to have better-looking gear than the next guy. That is why the endgame content is almost entirely based on Ecto farming and almost no one ever does anything else other than farming after beating the game (ie: playing the UW quests). One can't show off to others in offline singleplayer games, which is why they play Guild Wars.

ForgeWhelp · Jan 10, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Just a quick example of why I tend to not do PUGs. Recently while trying o get Masters on a mission and having failed for about the 20th time there happened to be a monk LFG for masters, so without a thought I picked him up and dumped a henchie monk. The mission failed but it went worse than with henchies. I was nice to the guy, but I've only had about 1 out of 4 luck with PUGs. I only PUG if I'm desparate or I don't really care about the outcome.

Some of the more successful PUGs I've been in had to interview people for 30+ minutes before comeing up with an 'acceptable' group. I was one of the interviewed. We did quite well on the mission and got the bonus, but for the most part I'd rather play the game rather than stand around waiting for a group to be composed, or spend an hour or more in PUG after PUG failing to achive the objective in the mission.

I'd be happy to PUG more but when I've tried to gather a group with 'BONUS ONLY!' and the first thing half of them do is go for ther mission and not the bonus, it doen't help sway me to want to do PUGs...

And don't get me started on people wanting the THK bonus and not one but me (out of 6 humans) know that both torches need to be lit as soon as the cut-scene ends....And then they blame me because I said "I'll get the torch on the left", and they assume I know what I'm doing and will get both torches....

I'll have to quit writing now or I will just keep remember bad PUGs, and change my mind about using them ever again...

Pure Disasta · Jan 10, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Honestly some people (here at least) are way too "stuck up" for want of a better way of putting it. Do you guys play any other online games at all? Especially team based ones? GW players are no better or worse than any other public online game. Do you moan and complain about the same thing in those, that everyone sucks and you wish you could play with bots instead? *roll eyes*

Prophecies people teamed up. A LOT. Contrary to what some are saying here. People even teamed up for the side quests, not just the main missions. Then Factions came along and it seems it maybe wasn't so well liked, people ended up just not playing it so much, so that there were often empty outposts and hopping districts to scrounge up players for a team.

Nightfall of course, everyone is permanently in a party of Heroes and henchies so that was a further nail in the coffin.

Here's a thought, instead of bitching about random internet people sucking, have you lot even tried to team up with each other? Really, you guys are so great, I'm sure it won't be hard to add each other to friends list and team up for that perfect gaming experience... which also exists in every other team/party game online I'm sure...

I'm starting to think Anet made a mistake releasing it as online only. They should have gone the Diablo/NWN path, made it an offline single player game (with 7 heroes/henchies) and an online mode for co-op/pvp (without heroes). At least that way all the single players could remain offline and stop making it feel pointless to "lfg" these days.

Honestly this is pretty much everything i was thinking when reading through this. Of course their are going to be pugs that arent good or are just plain idiots but i know lots of people and ive been with lots of people that are good know how to work together play as a team can take advice and use it to better themselves and vice versa. Its becoming to the point were people have taken a online game were you are meant to be playing with one another and turned into a single player game with the fact that you can still show off to all the other people that play the game alone with hero's/henchs and that seems to be the sole purpose for those people to have the games linked at all otherwise yes they would be playing a single player game alone. Because it seems like now a lot of people are not just probably anti-social irl but in general even in game and cant find a way to communicate with one another and further more better themselves for future experiences.

Diddy bow · Jan 10, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

i pugged just about every mission in proph cus there was people to do it with but tbh there just arent enough ppl in 90% of mission to make a good team (all 3 campains) cus of huge spread

ChaoticCoyote · Jan 10, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Sure, some PuGs are poor -- but I PuG'd my way through Elona without much trouble. I did two missions with hero/hench, just to save time.

I've had a good time doing missions and quests with groups. Attack on Kodash is one example; another is Vizunah. Sure, I hit the occassional klinker, but most people are just having a good time.

If someone is having universally bad experiences with PuGs, I suggest they look at the common denominator -- themselves! Maybe if all the PuGs you are in stink, it's because *you* are in those PuGs?

Everyone makes mistakes; everyone screws up. Get over yourself.

Meanwhile, I'm heading back to Nahpui with my necro, to look for a PuG that needs a MM...

Loviatar · Jan 10, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Aside from the "I would always play with AI" folks who, imho shouldn't be playing an online game anyway and would be best suited to single player offline

sorry but that is flat out wrong.

very early alex weekes when answering another stated the following.

*GW, due to the complete instancing and henchmen that can fill a hole in a group or replace the entire group can also be considererd...........

AN SINGLE PLAYER RPB THAT YOU PLAY ONLINE WITH THE OPTION OF PLAYING WITH OTHER LIVE PEOPLE*

Quote:

Prophecies people teamed up. A LOT. Contrary to what some are saying here.

they teamed up because they had to not that they wanted to as the henchies were so bad.

NOTE

from beta events on there have been constant fix the henchmen so i can ditch the bad groups .

remember our favorite healing tank?

remember being rezed in the middle of a mob?

EVERY TIME that an improvement to the henchies was made more players were ABLE to use them and say never again to the PUG.

the heroes are henchmen with the features only dreamed of earlier.

the PUG community killed the PUG

most of the players grabbing heroes would rather go with a fun live group but those are so few and far between finding one makes news

*YOU WONT BELIEVE IT BUT LAST NIGHT IN DESPERATION I JOINED A PUG AND WE ACTUALLY HAD FUN*

blood4blood · Jan 10, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Questioning the basic premise: why is it considered a problem that there are fewer PUG's or people spamming LFG in-game?

This thread and plenty of others have made clear that PUG's are not necessary to progress in the game, and in fact often hinder one's progress when compared to hero/hench groups or groups of friends/guildmates.

The various towns and outposts, along with forums such as Guru, provide plenty of opportunities for socializing, trade, recruiting, etc. (Not to say socializing in PUG's is bad - it's usually the best thing about PUG's - but PUG's aren't necessary for socializing in GW.)

Basically, I don't think PUG's are necessary at all. They can be fun, and they can also be annoying. It's entirely a matter of individual choice whether to use PUG's or not, and that is as it should be. If the majority of individuals choose not to join PUG's, I see that as a value-neutral choice as far as the state of the game and as far as my own playing experience, I don't see it as a problem.

maps · Jan 10, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

It's threads like these that destroys people confidence in PuG groups. Yes I've had bad pugs like everyone else but I've also Pug'd my way through FoW/UW without losing a single soul. I've PuG'd THK numerous times just for something to do and my success rate still stands at 100%.

People that don't PuG tend to be ones with an high opinion of themselves.

When I pugged, I got tired of:

People leaving after their first death (or better yet, just before)
Mending
The phallic imagery
People running off in various directions and getting lost
Broken Caps Lock keys
Pinging
Kids who have to leave 10 minutes after the start of the mission
Other random stuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Guild Wars box

Join with friends or play solo with a band of skillful henchmen.

Well, they aren't exactly skillful, but they're better than a lot of PvE players out there. That's saying something, considering they all have unfilled skillbars, some questionable skill choices, and bad AI.

In any case, Guild Wars was designed with the ability to play by yourself if you so chose.

trf2374 · Jan 10, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Honestly some people (here at least) are way too "stuck up" for want of a better way of putting it. Do you guys play any other online games at all? Especially team based ones? GW players are no better or worse than any other public online game.

I played EverQuest for a number of years. Maybe it was the $15/month that kept the idiots out. Maybe it was the time and dedication needed, but around level 30-40, the idiot factor became very rare. PuGs were coordinated and fairly skilled, with the occasional rare idiot. The higher the level, the fewer the idiots.

I'm not knocking GW being free and time-friendly, I like it for both reasons. However, my PuG experiences in GW are as bad as what most people are posting, and frankly, I don't want to deal with it since I only play 1-2 hours a day at best. And it's sad, I agree. It's sad people require groups to have 2 monks, 1 war, 2 eles and a MM, leaving 2 slots for probably more wars and eles. I don't want to sit for an hour trying to find a group for my sin, mesmer, rit, derv...etc. In that time I could clear a mission or three.

There have been times where PuGs were so picky, they wouldn't take me, so I henched the mission, and returned to the outpost to see them still 'LFM for mish'.

The one thought I have that might improve things would be to completely remove heroes and henchies for some areas, say in chapter 4. As with EQ, force people to PuG to advance. Perhaps the idiots who require their magical group will open their eyes to realise there are 12 classes in GW, not 4.

Jetdoc · Jan 10, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

sorry but that is flat out wrong.

very early alex weekes when answering another stated the following.

*GW, due to the complete instancing and henchmen that can fill a hole in a group or replace the entire group can also be considererd...........

AN SINGLE PLAYER RPB THAT YOU PLAY ONLINE WITH THE OPTION OF PLAYING WITH OTHER LIVE PEOPLE*

I'll take the direct advertising that A-Net does for Guild Wars on its website (www.guildwars.com) over what was said in an offline conversation by Mr. Weekes...

"Join a New Generation of Online Roleplaying

Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. You can meet new friends in towns or outposts, form a party, and then go tackle a quest together. Your party always has its own unique copy of the quest map, so camping, kill-stealing, and long lines to complete quests are all things of the past. Within a Guild Wars quest you have unprecedented freedom and power to manipulate the world around you; with the dynamic quest system, your accomplishments have a unique influence on your future."

Sounds like the game is marketed and is MEANT to be a multiplayer game, with the option of playing it single-player if you want.

Jetdoc · Jan 10, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by blood4blood

Basically, I don't think PUG's are necessary at all. They can be fun, and they can also be annoying. It's entirely a matter of individual choice whether to use PUG's or not, and that is as it should be.

If there are very few PuGs available, doesn't that eliminate the "choice" as to playing a multiplayer PvE game for those that want to?

Muk Utep · Jan 10, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

In my opinion, two things:

- Better options for people who want to go through the game alone

- A growing game world where previous content is not required

Loviatar · Jan 10, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Sounds like the game is marketed and is MEANT to be a multiplayer game, with the option of playing it single-player if you want.

hi

from the gamebox itself

Join with friends or play solo with a band of skillful henchmen.

it is advertised as playable both ways you make the choice.

people are choosing to herohench after many bad pug experiences.

you find mostly two types of threads on pugs

can anybody beat this bad experience i had last night?

OR

OMG you wont believe it but i foun a good pug last night

most threads are bad groups few are good groups

VacantStare · Jan 10, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

The problem is, that as more people move away from PuGs, those left don't have anyone to do it with, and so use heroes as well. I've only been playing a few weeks, and so far am only in Maguuma, where I've been finding it much better to play through the quests as part of a group, as henchies just don't cut it for me. And yeah, it can take a while to get a party, and yeah, you can have an idiot in them, but I've found that say about 80% of the time, the mission gets done, no hassle. God forbid if you actually enjoy working with other people like this. The people who're in here saying Heroes all the way ETC... Are basing their opinions on the few experiences they've had in groups. I mean, there are even some 'n00bs' out here who actually listen to advice, and look up things they don't know on the Wiki (Well, maybe just me~_~). Seriously, some of you really need to get off your high horse, and at least give people/groups a chance, not everyone is the same.

/ramble.

Patrick Smit · Jan 10, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

hehe i think u fail to mention that most people in pugs are much the same, i cant count the number of times ive seen people who PUG that think there gods gift to gw because there are a Warrior / monk or because they have an uber build that everyone else should resolve around rather than fitting in with the team.

Good PUGs are like Diamonds, rare and precious, when u find one u dont want to let go. Most PUGs fail through lack of comunication, lack of Teamwork, lack of thought, lack of maturity and/or lack of of pleasantrys.

People that dont PUG, are often people who know what they are doing, have a team plan and/or have become disillusioned due to the points above.

PUGing is unrealiable, its time consuming (just getting that party together), and its a gamble. on the other hand it is also fun to play with real people, to chat while u play, to share ideas but thats only when its not a bad PUG which most are.

A long long time ago when i first arrived at Thunderhead Keep, i tried to pug it, i suggested to every team(i think there was about 8 teams, possibly more) that we stay by the king, no one listened except one (but that team was suffering from 3 leavers), all the teams failed. Numerious hours of play for nothing. So i took a weeks break from gw, i came back and thought, ug! not more PUGing, so i decided to given the henchies a Chance. And wala, mission and bonus 1st time, It was a walk in the park. Ever since then I have always prefered henchies to PUGs, before then i used PUGs for all main missions, and used henchies only for Questing. I still PUG on occassion for fun or if i just feel like it, but the PUG unreliability is still very much present. Guildies and Friends are way more reliable for quests when you need a hand because they listen to what you have to say and vica versa.

So the reason behind Pugs dropping - PUGs being insanly unreliable.

I can only agree with you, in the past there where some missions difficult with henchies, but with the arrival of heroes and command flags, it has become rather easy to most if not all missions. Usually i drop if i dont like a team, but with cooperative players it will usually be:" go for the next mission quest?" It might even be that we run around with a core build of heroes, but still, some real players that know how to play (guild or not) are very nice.

pixiLated · Jan 10, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Speaking from personal experience, I prefer not to pug because of the arrogant, rude and ignorant attitudes of some players, and also bluntly, because of a lack of confidence on my part.

This is my first MMO, I wasn't a huge gamer before GW, now I play GW nearly everyday (stress relief after work of course) I started off back in June as a warrior, and a pretty lousy one at that I might say (ok that's a massive understatement - I was as much use as a chocolate fireguard!). Slowly - because I'm old and the reflexes and brain cells aren't what they used to be - I've improved, I'm never going to be top notch but I can get by, but the main thing is I'm still very nervous about subjecting my skills to the criticism of others.

Don't get me wrong, I've been in some awesome pugs, and my friends list is populated with people that I've pugged with. But I've been in far more horrnedous ones for the reasons stated in the first paragraph. For someone with low gaming confidence like me it can really put you off.

So now me and hubby play together with our heroes - because if he starts on me at least I can throw something at his head across the room!

leprekan · Jan 10, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

It's threads like these that destroys people confidence in PuG groups. Yes I've had bad pugs like everyone else but I've also Pug'd my way through FoW/UW without losing a single soul. I've PuG'd THK numerous times just for something to do and my success rate still stands at 100%.

People that don't PuG tend to be ones with an high opinion of themselves.

Pugging THK for fun? Now kids this is exactly why we want you to say NO to drugs