Curse

Bastian · Jan 17, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

LOL Equality, wouldnt be much of a game then would it, as you'd be there for bloody hours.

I thought the whole point of PvP was to beat your opponent by having an advantage skill wise.

An advantage in skill as in the personal ability of a player or as in the skills you bring on your bar (i.e. Build)?

Because, if you are talking about the latter, then the conclusion to your argument - if you follow it out logically, would mean that only certain "Advantageous" skills or builds would be the only ones that get used in PvP. Again, this would actually lead to what the poster below is stating about PvP...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

I fail to understand something in all the requests of skill nerf for PvP.

People ask to nerf everything: Searing Flames, Spoil Victor, Spiritual Pain, Shield of Absorption, Blinding Surge, Sandstorm (lol), avatars, Rampage as One and all skills you can imagine.

Everyone has his own hated skill he wants to see destroyed.

My question is: is there currently in PvP a winning build based around one or more of those skills, which wins ALWAYS and cannot be countered in any possible way?

If there is, the skill or skills are clearly unbalanced and need to be corrected.

But if this is not true, what is the PvPer idea of a balanced game?
And what are the requirements for a PvPer to consider the game "perfectly balanced"?
I fail to understand this, and I'd like to have an answer from experienced PvPers.
And also would like to know what is their "vision" of PvP, what kind of game they want to play.
...
When they find an opposing team that beats them using whatever build, they start to whine and call for nerfs, accusing some "unbalanced skills" to be the reason of their defeat.

Wake up, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, for sure you have to skilled but there is no possibility to win always against whatever opponent.

PvP should not be rock-paper-scissors. That leads to FoTM's and generally a stale meta-game. High end PvP should really be about individual and team skills (not the build but player ability) and tactics. Sure, there are going to be FoTM's. The problem is that without skill balancing then the same builds would get run over and over - as well as the same counter builds. Rock-paper-scissors is boring, and will lead to the end of PvP in GW without balancing. That is why skill balance is important.

This does not just mean nerfs but buffs as well.

Gun Pierson · Jan 17, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

To my knowledge Shield of Absorption is the last refuge for monks to farm a decent amount of gold in an acceptable timeframe since the new AI. Is the imbalance in pvp of that nature that the skill should be nerfed?

Bastian · Jan 17, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

To my knowledge Shield of Absorption is the last refuge for monks to farm a decent amount of gold in an acceptable timeframe since the new AI. Is the imbalance in pvp of that nature that the skill should be nerfed?

SoA is such a good skill in PvP that many people I have talked to say it is on par with having an extra elite in your skill bar. It absolutely abolishes any kind of pressure on a target. IMO, the skill shouldn't be nerfed, but perhaps the recharge. I <3 SoA as a monk, but it is extremely powerful.

Abnaxus · Jan 18, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus
Wake up, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, for sure you have to skilled but there is no possibility to win always against whatever opponent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by myword

if you were running a balanced build and that were truly the case, then ANet will have completely failed in balancing the game.

Ok, question: what is the definition of a "balanced build"?
Is maybe a "balanced build" something that uses 1 character for each class? This is impossible, since teams are made of 6-8 players and there are 10 classes.
Do "balanced builds" actually exist, or are they just a speculation?

Let's imagine that A.net nerfs all "overpowered" skills: FOTM builds are destroyed, and players find that they are weak against a "balanced build".
In a short time, the "balanced build" will become the new FOTM, its classes and skills will be considered overpowered and unbalanced, call for nerfs will start and so on.

Maybe the only way to make PvP really balanced would be this: players start the match without choosing class and skills, these would be randomly assigned at the beginning of the match, so no FOTM would be possible, and everything would depend on tactics, individual ability and coordination.

Savio · Jan 18, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Ok, question: what is the definition of a "balanced build"?
Is maybe a "balanced build" something that uses 1 character for each class? This is impossible, since teams are made of 6-8 players and there are 10 classes.
Do "balanced builds" actually exist, or are they just a speculation?

Balanced builds are those that are built to handle almost anything you throw at them. Hell, there's even a State of the Game article about it.

Quote:

Let's imagine that A.net nerfs all "overpowered" skills: FOTM builds are destroyed, and players find that they are weak against a "balanced build".
In a short time, the "balanced build" will become the new FOTM, its classes and skills will be considered overpowered and unbalanced, call for nerfs will start and so on.

FOTMs place priority on imbalanced skills and focus along a single line of attack, and player skill is secondary. Balanced builds place priority on player skill and strategy with multiple ways to attack, and imbalanced skills are secondary. When an overpowered skill gets nerfed, the FOTM loses its only strength but the balanced build just swaps out a few skills.

Quote:

Maybe the only way to make PvP really balanced would be this: players start the match without choosing class and skills, these would be randomly assigned at the beginning of the match, so no FOTM would be possible, and everything would depend on tactics, individual ability and coordination.

No, then the people randomly assigned overpowered skills win and it becomes a game of pure luck.

Shmanka · Jan 18, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Maybe the only way to make PvP really balanced would be this: players start the match without choosing class and skills, these would be randomly assigned at the beginning of the match, so no FOTM would be possible, and everything would depend on tactics, individual ability and coordination.

Assasins would kill you on the spot if you suggested this out loud.

SotiCoto · Jan 18, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Bah.

I think they should just leave all the skills as they are.

All these suggestions of nerfing are fairly ridiculous.
I believe that once a skill has been made a certain way that provided it isn't an all-slaughtering armageddon skill then it should just be left the way it is. I mean for instance... the factions boss... Shiro Tagachi. His skills are way more powerful than anything available to a player character, but there are still ways to give him the total r4pe-treatment. Theres nothing out there which doesn't have some sort of weakness that can be exploited by another build.... so really..... quit the damned changes already. If the A-Net folks don't like how it works then they should do more initial testing before release.

xcutioner · Jan 18, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Wether or not you suck at the game is irrelevant, (though if you say so I will take your word for it) fact of the matter is that an armor ignoring spell that already does a lot of aoe damage, which gets amplified by VoD and the fact that stuff has less health is pretty devestating, couple it with and esurge and pretty much every NPC that was still alive has now exploded.

Was that even an english sentence? Could anyone decipher what he's talking about or what his point is? fact of the matter is ..., what exactly? comboing skills is bad?

You could try bringing some skill into the picture and actually plan for that ahead of time and force the mesmers back off of the NPC characters so that cant happen. O but wait, that skill is overpowered and skill definitely has no chance. Darn!

I think that worrying about NPC's at VoD is somewhat of a straw man arguement.
VoD exists to shorten the matches, so using it as the crutch of your arguement against spiritual pain seems a bit specious.
Any aoe will do here, for example, "meteor shower" kills all the npcs at vod so it needs a nerf.
Yeah that sits well with me.

As a previous poster intimated, a 30 sec recharge, makes this skill roughly 3 dmg per second, maybe 10 dmg with AoE effects.
This is not alot of pressure and 30 sec spikes are not all that great. Sure they can get their spikes thru at times, if the infuse monk lags or misses it, but it's not a certain win.

I'm not saying that sp wont get nerfed, I'm just saying your arguement, doesn't hold water.
I feel that anet is doing a good job of generating new skills that are elite versions of existing skills or vice versa.

Spritual pain doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are some readily available counters to it, namely heal party, and unlike spiritual pain, heal party can be spammed endlessly.

To be honest I think you are just trying to draw attention from the real problem skill, overused more than any other in the game, and it seriously needs a nerf...rez sig.

Bastian · Jan 18, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Bah.

I think they should just leave all the skills as they are.

All these suggestions of nerfing are fairly ridiculous.
I believe that once a skill has been made a certain way that provided it isn't an all-slaughtering armageddon skill then it should just be left the way it is. I mean for instance... the factions boss... Shiro Tagachi. His skills are way more powerful than anything available to a player character, but there are still ways to give him the total r4pe-treatment. Theres nothing out there which doesn't have some sort of weakness that can be exploited by another build.... so really..... quit the damned changes already. If the A-Net folks don't like how it works then they should do more initial testing before release.

1. If you played PvP on any decent level then you would know that, while there aren't "all-slaughtering armageddon skills", there are certainly overpowered skills. In PvE, this is fine because they aren't really affecting you. However, in PvP they become used to take advantage of one skill as the basis for a build (you know its that way because the name of the build usually revolves around the one skill being used) and it does become a very powerful unbalanced skill.

2. Again, this does not really affect PvE, but skills that are unbalanced create an environment that is not fun for PvP and quickly becomes stale. Therefore, while I am sure there is a lot of revenue from PvE players - there is quite a bit of revenue from PvP players, especially because they almost need all the campaigns that are available and the future ones as well - to stay competetive. Therefore, PvP players generate higher revenue per person than a PvE player (especially considering the ones that bought the skill unlocks for $50 per campaign). This is a huge reason why Anet probably wants to be concerned about making PvP balanced and fun.

3. Your argument for Shiro is not even valid. First, that is an environment where you are 1 vs. 8. There is no build for 1 person (that I know of) that can compete with Shiro's skills. Additionally, Shiro is going to do the same thing and use the same skills everytime. In PvP there is no set skills that the other team is running. It is always different. Because of this, a balanced game ensures that you can bring sufficient counters to what you may expect to come up against (AKA the metagame).

4. Anet does do testing before they release the skills. However a minority of people are never going to be able to test the possible combinations of all skills like 3 million will. The fact is, people are constantly trying to find ways to exploit skills in order to give them an advantage. While there is no problem in doing this, balance needs to happen if skills combination are found that are genuinely "overpowered".

5. Your post about "there is nothing out there which doesn't have some sort of weakness..." Guess what? That is exactly what skill balancing is about... making sure that this is the case on a consistent basis.

xcutioner · Jan 18, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

...there are certainly overpowered skills. In PvE, this is fine because they aren't really affecting you.

You sir, have not played pve with a level 30 boss casting a single skill that damn near kills everyone instantly.
If I'm not affected by that I don't know who is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

skills that are unbalanced create an environment that is not fun for PvP and quickly becomes stale.

I can definitely agree with that. i think the problem here is that the skill balance was too long in coming. Anet needs to address this perhaps by releasing the next expansion to coincide with the gvg championships a bit better so that perhaps a month or so after release a skill balance update could be put into place during the gvg championship gap.

Bastian · Jan 18, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcutioner

You sir, have not played pve with a level 30 boss casting a single skill that damn near kills everyone instantly.
If I'm not affected by that I don't know who is.

I can definitely agree with that. i think the problem here is that the skill balance was too long in coming. Anet needs to address this perhaps by releasing the next expansion to coincide with the gvg championships a bit better so that perhaps a month or so after release a skill balance update could be put into place during the gvg championship gap.

/agreed

Yes, you are right. In PvE I was thinking more from the player standpoint, but yes, the monsters in NF can certainly do quite a bit of damage with some of their skills. I think the Drought is certainly one of them. Additionally, the SF ele in Elona is a pain as well. Interrupts ftw!

And I totally agree that the skill balance is a long time coming...

Yichi · Jan 18, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcutioner

You sir, have not played pve with a level 30 boss casting a single skill that damn near kills everyone instantly.
If I'm not affected by that I don't know who is.

im not. prot spirit. end of story. they do no more with prot spirit than anything else can do.

Pandora's box · Jan 18, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

What concerns me is that the skill balancing will be done by testing in a PvP weekend. The result will most likely be quit the opposite of what PvE players want. Not to mention how it will affect builds where players have spend tons of gold to get the right skills/gear. I hope Anet realizes that skill testing in a PvP environment will have an outcome that is is supported by a part of the PvP community, but not by the majority of the GW players...

Synthetic · Jan 18, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

The skill balances will be global, and I am quite sure that ANet realizes that most of their player base is PvE players. I am sure that they will not do something to short sight the PvE'ers out there.

I am pretty sure that they are going to be making some massive changes, this would be the reason why it has taken so long and why they are doing a test of the update beforehand. They have so many broken skills at the moment that many people could be upset by the updates. It should be a very interesting weekend.

Bastian · Jan 18, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

What concerns me is that the skill balancing will be done by testing in a PvP weekend. The result will most likely be quit the opposite of what PvE players want. Not to mention how it will affect builds where players have spend tons of gold to get the right skills/gear. I hope Anet realizes that skill testing in a PvP environment will have an outcome that is is supported by a part of the PvP community, but not by the majority of the GW players...

The skill balancing will be global. There is not a way to test skill changes to just PvP or PvE. Additionally, if you read Gaile's post - they are asking for feedback from every area of the game. That means PvE and PvP players alike. I would recommend that everyone make a solid critique on the new forum provided about how they feel the skill balancing affected them and the game. As long as it isn't a flame, I am sure your opinions will be heard.

Savio · Jan 18, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

The result will most likely be quit the opposite of what PvE players want.

The majority of PvE players don't notice and don't care about skill balances.

Quote:

Not to mention how it will affect builds where players have spend tons of gold to get the right skills/gear.

Define tons of gold, and define builds where people have to do that.

Quote:

I hope Anet realizes that skill testing in a PvP environment will have an outcome that is is supported by a part of the PvP community, but not by the majority of the GW players...

I hope PvE players will someday realize that PvP skill balances don't nerf anything that wasn't overpowered in PvE as well.

wynoski · Jan 18, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Wow...a lot of anti NF Sentiment...I'll admit I am a PVE...don't care much for the "Metagame"

But theNerfing of the NF skills? Come on...let's keep this interesting or else the builds are non-creative and boring. I have about 20 different templates and try different things all the time...If we did not have new skills and balances, the chapters would be indistinguishable from each other...did you honestly want to run through NF without capping or buying a single skill?

be creative. I have not seen a decent new build on wiki for a while...

Yichi · Jan 18, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

What concerns me is that the skill balancing will be done by testing in a PvP weekend. The result will most likely be quit the opposite of what PvE players want. Not to mention how it will affect builds where players have spend tons of gold to get the right skills/gear. I hope Anet realizes that skill testing in a PvP environment will have an outcome that is is supported by a part of the PvP community, but not by the majority of the GW players...

LMFAO you honestly believe that skill balances are done in PVE??? ROFL. ALL skill balances outside of maybe like 2 have been because of and came from imbalances in PVP.

fenix · Jan 19, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Hmm, so many people posting don't seem to understand this.

Skill Balances are made with PvP in mind, PvE is almost completely ignored.

Stop posting things like "these skills don't need nerfing, they are fine in pve", it's just stupidity. All balances are based on PvP issues. No one cares how balances will affect how fast you can kill Margonites, or whether you can solo at the same places. This is ENTIRELY about PvP.

Maria The Princess · Jan 19, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

Hmm, so many people posting don't seem to understand this.

Skill Balances are made with PvP in mind, PvE is almost completely ignored.

Stop posting things like "these skills don't need nerfing, they are fine in pve", it's just stupidity. All balances are based on PvP issues. No one cares how balances will affect how fast you can kill Margonites, or whether you can solo at the same places. This is ENTIRELY about PvP.

gotta agree with that.

i dont agree with you Savio, PvE players feel the skill nurfs as much as pvp players. for pve players, pve is the only game that exists, that they are interested in enouthg and that they enjoy (well, occasional pvp doesnt make it to be important enouth to care about) no mattter what game is it, GW, WoW etc.

if lets say spitful spirit was nurfed to the point that you cant use it anymore, dont u think that you would start seing waaay less necros around? thats just an example btw. PvE players care about skills and build as much as PVPers, we dont just mindlessly put skills on a skill bar and run out of the portal. we read skills, theres skills that we use all the time (relatevly) and skills we never use, and skills we used to love but now threre useless, and WE ARE upset about them as mucha s PVPers.

PvPers go to HA to gain more fame to have a pretty emote, we go to farm to gain more gold to have pretty armors. PvPers have cookie cutter builds (like IWAY) to farm fame (or guild rank, but not with IWAY

) easily, we have our own cookie cutters to farm gold easily (like 55 monks)

we have party builds and strategies just like you guys, and its just not fair that ANET doesnt seem to consider PVE in skill nurfs. If SF is gonna be nurfed, so what, i have to go back to the same old boring echo - meteor shower to provide enouth damage to kill a mob of 10 lvl 28 monsters? (that was an example as well, dont flame

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