Curse

Swiffle · Jan 16, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

LOL Equality, wouldnt be much of a game then would it, as you'd be there for bloody hours.

I thought the whole point of PvP was to beat your opponent by having an advantage skill wise.

Just going to pop in here and say that your immense logic is both bulletproof and awe-inspiring. I am greatly enlightened by your words of wisdom.

- Swiffle

Yichi · Jan 16, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

I thought the whole point of PvP was to beat your opponent by having an advantage skill wise.

The point of PVP is to be able to combat other guilds/teams/players by using PLAYER, repeat PLAYER skill, not to be assraped by a team running 8x copies of an overpowered character skill.

And thus skills are adjusted in PVP accordingly to keep this philosophy. Yes while some skills ie. spirit bond WERE ment with only pve in mind (see solo UW monk) these are very few and far between. An imbalanced skill will GREATLY affect PVP far more than it will impact PVE. I for one, dont want to see a tournament won due to someone running an imbalanced skill because it worked well against monster AI...

Shmanka · Jan 16, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Jagged Bones isn't the problem, the issue is Soul Reaping from Spirits - again.

Spiritual Pain is a ridiculously good spike skill, which promotes a spike heavy metagame. Thus it needs toning down.

Blinding Surge and Shield of Absorption are both just too strong against a pressure style of play. They also need toning down.

A single Searing Flames Ele is a fairly weak character, the problem is that it gets exponentially better as you multiply them. Searing needs to be tweaked so it is more attractive to slot one or two into a standard build, and less appealing to run five of them and spam skills.

Spoil Victor probably needs the duration tweaked slightly. I don't think it's that imbalanced in all honesty. It's popularity in the Necro build is largely due to the build as a whole it's self, and the ability to fuel spamming it with Soul Reaping. That is the biggest issue.

Shadow Prison is fine, I feel. In higher levels of play it isn't that great because it just helps monks recognize the spike target.

This game is balanced for PvP, bringing up PvE based arguments for the balance of skills is ridiculous and futile.

First off I would like to thank you for your intelligent reply to my post.

Second off I think this sparked the conversation in the wrong direction. I had made a small comment on how and in this special case I think that jagged bones is a problem in the pvp format of the game, especially the abuse you now see in HA. The skill is quite unique and more or less at first glance(if you haven't seen the skill already) there is an evil grin most necromancer players will smile about. It's a great skill, but in my honest opinion it is too powerful for the fact that was mentioned. Soul Reaping. I love it how it is in the PvE format for the fact that, not exactly everything leaves a corpse behind. Thus, you can keep minions up even if you have limited external resources.

The game is called Guild Wars. This is a game that will always eventually lead to the PvP format. Whether you are a PvE fan or PvP fan there is one thing in common, skill is determined on the guild teamwork to defeat other guilds. PvE is repetitive~This is not insulting it~ It's a fact.

I just wanted this endless conversation to end(, I know I'm contradicting myself).

Now back to your reply on my post JR, I have no problem with Spoil Victor's Mana cost+cooldown. I just want possibly upto 25% of its damage taken away. Blood builds in the past OoB, OoP. Are usually support to some kind, I like the offensiveness this gives althought I don't care for how it wrecks Attacking classes, and Spellcaster classes in a way I would imagine a mesmer doing so, with alot more damage.

Shadow Prison to me is a huge problem, like I said the snare power of this skill is ridiculous. Honestly I like that warriors even use dismember now, and this encourages it... although I hate how it is abused like a red headed step child. It is too powerful for its mana and effect. IMO. I try my best to look on the scale of two skills we can all relate to: Sprint, Charge(Elite). These skills are similar and one is more powerful then the other. I believe if an elite is more powerful then this on a comparison scale, it is too powerful. For me this is something the dev's should look more upon.

I actually did not even think of shield of absorbtion, that is possibly another skill the dev's should look into. Although I think the mana cost, cooldown, and effect are balanced. I am interested in how you would change it.

Again I did not try to bring PvE into reason to balance skills, It's just that if this skill gets nerfed I am just in sorrow for the necromancers using it to just have a good chance in some PvE missions/Quests/Group Farmings. I just think that this skill atm is fair in one environment and not the other.

EDIT: Also ty for the PM's about how I think Divine Favor should be changed. I do think this will make monks more effective into what they were planned to be "Holy Spellcasters". Smiting Alone does not justify them. I think also that monks in general should profit way more from Divine Favor then they do atm. I will reply to you all shortly.

Alleji · Jan 16, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Can we RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stop derailing the thread?

>.>

Nope. Posting a thread on a PvP subject in a PvE forum makes PvPers post in said thread and then flames inevitably start.

Seamus Finn · Jan 17, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

...The "E" in PvE stands for easy? Doesn't it? I still pve when I need gold, and there are a million ways to abuse the current skill list and there will be a million more after the skill balance. If you think you absolutely HAVE to be that one guy in an 8 man party that spams Searing Flames in order to beat something, well, try to get better ok? There's likely a build that could solo that group.

...do I smell something burning?

Blackhawk · Jan 17, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiffle

Just going to pop in here and say that your immense logic is both bulletproof and awe-inspiring. I am greatly enlightened by your words of wisdom.

- Swiffle

Glad to hear it as most ppl I team up with are both inspired and enlightened by the logic behind my builds I run

Buns United · Jan 17, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

About the issue with Blinding Surge, my suggestion is making it 10 energy cost, if you are under the effects of an enchantment you gain 1...3...4 energy.

Makes air attunement more attactive too wouldn't you think? still the spammable lightning strike damage and less viable for abusing it as a secondary elementalist.

(forgive me if I forgot something entirely that would kind of make this too powerfull still, but it's been tired

and I kind of just need some rest...)

g'd nite!

fenix · Jan 17, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

They should just make Bsurge 10e and 5-8 recharge. That way it isn't so over-powered.

Searing Flames. Elite Spell. 15e, 1c, 5r. Target blah blah damage, blah blah Burning for 5 seconds.

Means you can't just spam SF, gives people time to remove the Burning. Still very strong, now just not so strong.

As for other skills, I suppose Jagged Bones could do with something changed, as it's just a bit too strong in HA. I also think Spiritual Pain could have a lower damage amount, or just a lower AoE damage amount.

Gun Pierson · Jan 17, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Everybody and their dog seems to have an opinion on spells and want to nerf whatever they have trouble with. Also pvp and pve = bad marriage, they should get divorced as soon as possible. Somebody please think about the children lol.

Sirus Dibley · Jan 17, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Now that Ele's can solo farm UW - expect some major nerfing Elemental's.......

Emik · Jan 17, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

again?
In all fairness i think Ele's have been hit with the nerflaser far too much by now.
Why do you see so many eles in NF compared with Factions?
Becoz now they're actually worth something again.

Grolubao · Jan 17, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Just end the euro-spike builds, I'm just so tired of seeing the same games over and over...

Nick The Awesome · Jan 17, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

im looking forward to the update, as long as they don't make any skills useless im fine with it, and they shouldn't go that far.

Cass · Jan 17, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Why do you see so many eles in NF compared with Factions?
Becoz now they're actually worth something again.

Because the Elonian Esprit shop has all the latest and skimpiest dresses, actually.

Emik · Jan 17, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Because the Elonian Esprit shop has all the latest and skimpiest dresses, actually.

Hehe nice one...

Too bad that very same Esprit shop sucks in Necro clothing

Priest Of Sin · Jan 17, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Twisting Fangs is an insane skill, yes, but there is no reason to nerf it. It allows for easy cover of conditions, which is why I follow Temple Strike with it. A monk removing conditions will remove bleeding, no big deal. The Deep Wound, Dazed, and Blind stay, leaving me able to obliterate my foe.

Alleji · Jan 17, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

They should just make Bsurge 10e and 5-8 recharge. That way it isn't so over-powered.

People would go back to using flash. 10e alone is too strong of a nerf already to justify taking it over the non-elite skill.

Remove aoe blind + maybe increase recharge to 7 gogogo.

Quote:

Searing Flames. Elite Spell. 15e, 1c, 5r. Target blah blah damage, blah blah Burning for 5 seconds.

Making skills into complete trash isn't the point of nerfing. I realize you probably hate SF as much as I hate avatar of grenth, but nerfing it as hard as ether renewal isn't the answer.

3s recharge, maybe chop 1 second off burning (that would put it at 6, I think). Anything more would cause it to fall out of use. Sandstorm is better than SF anyway and earth line offers support whereas fire offers nothing other than SF. (omgomgomg meteor shower!) Put that fact and your nerf together and you'll never see a fire ele outside of AvA and Random Arenas again.

Abnaxus · Jan 17, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I fail to understand something in all the requests of skill nerf for PvP.

People ask to nerf everything: Searing Flames, Spoil Victor, Spiritual Pain, Shield of Absorption, Blinding Surge, Sandstorm (lol), avatars, Rampage as One and all skills you can imagine.

Everyone has his own hated skill he wants to see destroyed.

My question is: is there currently in PvP a winning build based around one or more of those skills, which wins ALWAYS and cannot be countered in any possible way?

If there is, the skill or skills are clearly unbalanced and need to be corrected.

But if this is not true, what is the PvPer idea of a balanced game?
And what are the requirements for a PvPer to consider the game "perfectly balanced"?
I fail to understand this, and I'd like to have an answer from experienced PvPers.
And also would like to know what is their "vision" of PvP, what kind of game they want to play.

My personal opinion.

I think that most of PvPers don't want to admit that, whereas PvE is killing the same monsters that spawn in the same number in the same locations and use the same skills, PvP is playing rock/paper/scissors.

You start a PvP match with whatever build, pressure, euro-spike, SF spammer, Iway, or no fotm but a perfectly balanced team, but whatever build or not build you choose, no one can ensure that you win for sure.
If you are lucky to find an opposing team which is unprepared against you, you win.
If you are not lucky and the opposing team has counters against you, you lose.
STOP.

Instead in my opinion most of PvPers think that PvP for them has to be like PvE (in which you always win ... ehm nearly always

) and they must win always.
When they find an opposing team that beats them using whatever build, they start to whine and call for nerfs, accusing some "unbalanced skills" to be the reason of their defeat.

Wake up, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, for sure you have to skilled but there is no possibility to win always against whatever opponent.

myword · Jan 17, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

My question is: is there currently in PvP a winning build based around one or more of those skills, which wins ALWAYS and cannot be countered in any possible way?

as has been said many many many many many times, just because a skill can be countered does not mean it cannot be over-powered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Wake up, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, for sure you have to skilled but there is no possibility to win always against whatever opponent.

if you were running a balanced build and that were truly the case, then ANet will have completely failed in balancing the game.

Narcism · Jan 17, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Thread MVP (in the "logic" division):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Mystic Rengeneration definitely does not need a nerf. Dervishes already got way over-nerfed between the PVP preview and Retail release. Now they need buffing, not nerfing.