Curse

Redfeather1975 · Dec 28, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Hey everyone. Has it already been said in this topic that enemy AI should be different depending on the species?

A big dumb crab is not going to have the attack incentives as a humanoid enemy. One is going to attack willy nilly, or go for the weakest looking target, the other is going to take down what it perceives to be the group's keystone.
It makes sense that different types of enemies have different attack/defense strategies.

Maybe they already do, and it all seems random when glanced at. I don't know.

imkey · Dec 28, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

After playing WoW for the 1st year of its release and gw since that time (lots of time spent in both games...),
I can say that asking for an aggro skill where certain skill can modify this aggro directly is easy mode. that is dumbing down the game mechanic to the old tired formula of tank going in, gaining aggro, and holding aggro as long as he spams his "taunt" or other aggro-gaining skill. Everyone else just needs to make sure not to hit their high aggro spells too often

.

You, the player, should not be able to "directly" determine/manipulate who the AI hits. Currently, the system is setup so you can give "hints" to the AI as who to hit if you understand the system.

The system is not as random as you think. The code is not setup so the AI picks a random target every few seconds... The AI does a decent job of determing who best to hit.

The aggro/threat system described is not needed because the AI already does a great job choosing targets (that annoy you so much that you have to post on this forum and complain :P). There's no need to add extra complications to the gameplay mechanics where it is not needed.

the developers know this:
Do not add extra complication to the gameplay where it is not needed.

It's already a nightmare I bet to balance everything, do we really need another psuedo pve gameplay layer for the developers to develop/balance?
There more important things for them to work on such as an Auction House!

Redfeather1975 · Dec 28, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Yeah, maybe AI tweaking can wait.
It hasn't broken my enjoyment of the game, but an Auction House would be so very neat! Yaaaaah, Auction House!

Amity and Truth · Dec 28, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Well, the allready poor Aggro Control was taken out of the game intentionally. So i highly doubt that any update will bring some sort of Aggro Management.

Ansgar Two Hand · Dec 28, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

95% of my playing time is as a warrior in PvE. I've noticed that since I started playing 4 months or so ago, the AI has gotten "better". In other words, it's harder for me to do what it is I want to do. The bad guys don't cooperate.

They try to get past me and at our monks and elementalists. They keep moving around. Their monks and ele's run away from me. In other words, they do what my party would do, in the same situation. I don't think the system is broken.

Sekkira · Dec 28, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

You make it sound like the rest of the team is only there to support the warrior. Apply pressure and a true damage threat are two different things to me. I am sure we can continue to disagree

AnnaCloud9 · Dec 28, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

The great thing about Guild Wars is that every single first or last target in any group of any size, can be your primary target. Not a single person in any group can be deemed the most important based on class. Not even the monk.

So to say the AI should 'tactically' be aware of its primary target is rediculous, since it's the player behind the character that 99% of the time ends up getting that character killed - not the fact that she/he is a monk or an ele.

Please don't bring the days of the 'cog' or 'book' trick back to Guild Wars by implementing a skill or line of skills devoted to doing absolutely the opposite of what's intended by this franchise. It would bore me to no end.

In essence, learn to control your aggro, and pick your targets wisely. The monk isn't always your worst threat you know.

IkegaIXII · Dec 28, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I've read this topic all the way till page two and I'm just gonna start posting.

IMO, this aggro system is flawed to begin with. First of all, with the new aggro system in place and with DoA already running, you can already see how messed up it is to 'maintain aggro' in today's terms of playing higher lvl of PvE GW.

Sure by, "getting a team of one-two tanks, two-three nukers, two-three monks, and a battery necro and letting the highly intelligent lvl 28 monsters 'maintain aggro' on a tank by getting them stuck against a wall while the nukers pummel them with meteor shower", you can practice the correct way of maintaining aggro and can allow you to finish DoA and get awesome prizes.

That is plain ridiculous. Ya, I play mid-level PvE, a lot more of PvP, and no 'higher lvl of PvE' such as DoA/elite missions because I refuse to do something that seems so retarded like this. It's like the designers of DoA wants you to play these missions by transforming warriors into mindless boulders and take advantage of the fact that indoing so, the 'intelligent' monsters are too stupid to realize that their aggro is being 'maintained' and cannot step back and switch targets to castors. O right, the people who actually did finish DoA can pat themselves on the back and say that they are the best hi-lvl pve players because they took advantage of bodyblocking stupid monsters against a freaking wall.

But hey, if the monsters actually did have the intelligence to step back and atk castors, then the whole team would fall apart, and there will be no more high-lvl PvE elite missions.

Imho, GW needs to introduce a new way of combat rather then setting the team strategy up in this bodyblock fashion. I was thinking about making the aggro simpler. For example:
"Monsters who first see tanks will atk tanks. Then they realize that they are getting pummeled by the elementalists using MS so the castor monsters use shouts and you can see [Go for their eles] above their heads. Then the Elementalists would have to use kiting skills to kite as the monsters start going for them.This applies for Monks also because when they see [Go for their Monks] then they'd have to start kiting too." This introduces realistic elements of hit and kite in castors but also reintroduces the actual use of sprint skills for melee because they'd have to catch up/do damage on the monsters and retrain their aggro on them.

Imo, this is how a battle should be. Not getting Mindless Tanks to Tank intelligent lvl 28 monsters against a wall and letting MS eles clear out. I hope you guys agree, seems that I've written an essay again.

Antheus · Dec 28, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IkegaIXII

Imho, GW needs to introduce a new way of combat rather then setting the team strategy up in this bodyblock fashion. I was thinking about making the aggro simpler. For example:
"Monsters who first see tanks will atk tanks. Then they realize that they are getting pummeled by the elementalists using MS so the castor monsters use shouts and you can see [Go for their eles] above their heads. Then the Elementalists would have to use kiting skills to kite as the monsters start going for them.This applies for Monks also because when they see [Go for their Monks] then they'd have to start kiting too." This introduces realistic elements of hit and kite in castors but also reintroduces the actual use of sprint skills for melee because they'd have to catch up/do damage on the monsters and retrain their aggro on them.

Since you don't play DoA, you don't know, that this is exactly how it works. Before commenting, at least read up on the DoA tanking strategies that explain exactly that.

- Tank agros by having no other party member within their agro bubble.
- Mobs attack
- As soon as they take some damage, no more than 3 will stick to the tank
- All mobs above 3 will start to retreat, or search for new targets
- If there's casters in range, they'll zone into that, around the warrior wall

This is why MS and spike trap are used. Trap KDs the creatures, MS keeps them down, if possible helped by earthbind. Then the entire team hopes, that 3-6 MS will kill the group before it has the chance to run away, and destroy the backline. If a few mobs do escape, each backline caster must either kite, or kill straggles.

Groups in DoA attempting single tank strategy fail for these reasons:
- Backline moves in within agro bubble of the tank, mobs see them, no longer care about tank, and go straight for backline
- Group doesn't have enough power to kill the mobs while they are shutdown by MS, entire group breaks off tank to heal, or find new targets
- A single straggler survives the MS strike, and goes for backline. Nobody kites. Group wipes
- A single straggler survives, goes for backline, entire backline starts mindlesly running around, not killing the mob, straggler kills backline one by one. Only person attacked should be kiting, the rest should be killing the straggler.

It may look mindless, but only because mobs don't learn. This is the difference between pvp and pve. And that cannot change.

But your proposed AI system is exactly what current AI is now.

Voltar · Dec 29, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

gw actually has a very predictable and manageable aggro system. the melee enemy ai looks for the target in range with (a) the lowest health and (b) the lowest AL. when they get into attack range of their chosen target, they recheck their threat bubble and go for the target that best matches the aforementioned criteria.

ranged ai with conditions or hexes tend to just spread it around on anyone. there's few options for keeping mesmer ai on the "tank" but it can be be done for most of any given fight.

a couple other factors affect aggro...
let's take a scenario where the group uses the traditional "tank" technique. the warrior runs up alone (all buffed up or whatever) and everyone stays out of threat-bubble range until the warrior has solid agro. there's a few things i've noticed which seem to break that agro: (a) monks healing the tank, (b) the tank moving and (c) aoe damage (especially if there's more than 1 burst of aoe damage in something like 3 seconds or so which generally makes the ai run away and straightup break aggro). if there's melee on the tank that the tank isn't attacking who takes damage from another group member, that melee ai might break aggro and attack it's attacker.

i'm sure there's other things i haven't noticed but the ai isn't some string of disgruntled code that "takes it out on players". ai is a set of rules of behavior that is consistant and predictable.

not random.

that being said, a family of "taunt" moves for warriors would be nice; definitely for pugs...those aren't usually organized enough to pull off decent tanking.

you used to be able to "wipe aggro off" on warriors by running a tight circle around the warrior. i've still been able to do that after the ai changes but it's noticebly harder.

Edit: just noticed the post before me said much the same thing...oops.

leprekan · Dec 29, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Sorry punkin but my reply was actually valid. Instead of trying to explain how you disagree you go for the oh so mature roffle. GG

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I've read every post made here and not once has anyone actually posted a "solution" to the problem. All I've seen is complaining and bickering about the problem. I agree that there is a problem with the warriors and their in-ability to be tanks/meatshields with the current AI system and it should be addressed. Yes there are multiple ways you can play a warrior and at times I WANT to be a meatshield. I should at least have the skillset as a warrior to be that. Most of the time I'm set up for pure offence (Warrior damage is pathetic) because nobody cares to hit me until last.

Here's my solution:

Leave the AI alone. I think it's fine, but annoying. Instead make 2 new skills, one regular skill and the other an Elite. Of course there will need to be modifications to the skill idea's I've just created but this will help a warrior be a "tank/meatshield" if they chose to be one.

Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: For 1.....10 seconds target creature focuses all their attacks on you.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: For 1.....6 seconds 1....4 creatures within earshot focus all their attacks on you.

Q: What about PVP? How will that work against players?
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is locked to that enemy for all offencive attacks for x seconds. You won't be able to switch targets unless it's to an Ally. You would still be able to cast enchantments, heal, etc... to your Allies, you just won't be able to attack anyone except the enemy that taunted you.

Q: What about players in mid-cast when you "Taunt" them?
A: The spell the player was casting will still hit it's original target, but spells after that will target the taunter.

In all reality though, just exactly how much of a beating can a warrior take all at once and have the monks keep up the heals? Well, if you are in the high end, not much at all. 2 spikes from an ele, 1 warrior w/ hundred blades, and a necro w/ weaken armor will destroy that warrior. 6 seconds of that w/o a prot monk and your toast.

In my opinion the Taunt skill is a little weak but it would be effective w/o being overpowering. Since it has a 10 energy cost it will be hard for a warrior to spam that to keep all the agro off the group. SInce it can't be spammed the player would be required to use it appropriatly. If one of my casters is getting pounded on by 3 enemies, I'll Taunt one of them off then depending on how much energy I have after the 5 second recharge I'll try to taunt another one off. That still leaves 5 seconds of 2 enemies pounding on a caster. which still may be more than enough to kill them. You mis-manage your energy and you won't be as effective.

I think the Elite Shout is a little too powerfull in the description I've created but that's also why it's an "Elite" skill. But there are already counters out there for the Elite Shout for those of you who think this would be too powerfull, How about the necro "Well of Silence"? Cast that around a warrior and the warrior can't use shouts, shutting down their ability to do AoE Taunts.

Acidic Won · Jan 19, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

I've read every post made here and not once has anyone actually posted a "solution" to the problem. All I've seen is complaining and bickering about the problem. I agree that there is a problem with the warriors and their in-ability to be tanks/meatshields with the current AI system and it should be addressed. Yes there are multiple ways you can play a warrior and at times I WANT to be a meatshield. I should at least have the skillset as a warrior to be that. Most of the time I'm set up for pure offence (Warrior damage is pathetic) because nobody cares to hit me until last.

Here's my solution:

Leave the AI alone. I think it's fine, but annoying. Instead make 2 new skills, one regular skill and the other an Elite. Of course there will need to be modifications to the skill idea's I've just created but this will help a warrior be a "tank/meatshield" if they chose to be one.

Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: For 1.....10 seconds target creature focuses all their attacks on you.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: For 1.....6 seconds 1....4 creatures within earshot focus all their attacks on you.

Q: What about PVP? How will that work against players?
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is locked to that enemy for all offencive attacks for x seconds. You won't be able to switch targets unless it's to an Ally. You would still be able to cast enchantments, heal, etc... to your Allies, you just won't be able to attack anyone except the enemy that taunted you.

Q: What about players in mid-cast when you "Taunt" them?
A: The spell the player was casting will still hit it's original target, but spells after that will target the taunter.

In all reality though, just exactly how much of a beating can a warrior take all at once and have the monks keep up the heals? Well, if you are in the high end, not much at all. 2 spikes from an ele, 1 warrior w/ hundred blades, and a necro w/ weaken armor will destroy that warrior. 6 seconds of that w/o a prot monk and your toast.

In my opinion the Taunt skill is a little weak but it would be effective w/o being overpowering. Since it has a 10 energy cost it will be hard for a warrior to spam that to keep all the agro off the group. SInce it can't be spammed the player would be required to use it appropriatly. If one of my casters is getting pounded on by 3 enemies, I'll Taunt one of them off then depending on how much energy I have after the 5 second recharge I'll try to taunt another one off. That still leaves 5 seconds of 2 enemies pounding on a caster. which still may be more than enough to kill them. You mis-manage your energy and you won't be as effective.

I think the Elite Shout is a little too powerfull in the description I've created but that's also why it's an "Elite" skill. But there are already counters out there for the Elite Shout for those of you who think this would be too powerfull, How about the necro "Well of Silence"? Cast that around a warrior and the warrior can't use shouts, shutting down their ability to do AoE Taunts.

stupid sounds like incoming... bad ideas.. should not be present in PvP

baddog992 · Jan 19, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Why dont we make a skill called I can win? The skill would nuke all creatures killing them instantly and also clears the entire map, then the party can walk around opening chest. Do we realy need a skill that makes nightfall easier to manage, is the game that hard for people?

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

stupid sounds like incoming

Yes it does sound like incomming but the difference is the monks only need to focus heals on 1 person for that time instead of the whole party.

Quote:

Why dont we make a skill called I can win? The skill would nuke all creatures killing them instantly and also clears the entire map, then the party can walk around opening chest.

Yeah and while your at it why not create a god mode where you can one hit kill anything with your bare hands wearing no armor at all while dancing picking your nose? Seriously what's your solution then? If you can come up with a better solution I'd be more than willing to listen to it. Until then anything you say means nothing? I've at least offered a solution.

All I'm asking for is a way that as a warrior you can manage "some" of the agro, not ALL of it.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 19, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Are you stupid enough to focus all your attacks on a rock that does nothing while the monsters rip you to shreds? No? Then why should the AI be?

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Are you stupid enough to focus all your attacks on a rock that does nothing while the monsters rip you to shreds? No? Then why should the AI be?

Are you stupid enough to cast spells when you are dazed? No? What other option do you have? Just stand there and do nothing right? You're FORCED not to cast a spell.

Are you stupid enough to cast with Backfire on? No? But you do it anyway don't you?

Are you stupid enough to have your movement slowed down and get plugged from long range by rangers? No? But you have no choice because you are forced to.

Same goes with taunt agro. Use the skill and that enemy is FORCED to obey the skill.

Again, if you can't come up with viable solutions to combat my suggestions don't bother posting. If all you want to do is critisize, go somewhere else.

Savio · Jan 19, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

PETA has called about the abuse of dead horses.
Search: aggro skill
Search: taunt

The Sardelac Sanitarium forum is also there for a reason.

Closed.