Curse

lennymon · Jan 23, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Humorously enough, I saw Glads defense MUCH more in pvp this weekend than ever before. Instead of thinking of this as a nerf, just rethink how and when the skill could be useful. The skill changes for the weekend weren't permanent and and constructive comments on the changes obviously will help in the change forum, but from my opinion, this change wasn't as crazy or as bad as some. The lower recharge makes this a far more viable skill overall, yes it may need some tweaking but generally speaking unless one is solo farming this is going in the right direction I think.

Tactical-Dillusions · Jan 23, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Anet should do what i suggested way back last year - add one new skill to each class every month.

When a particular build seems to be dominating the PvP side of the game, give another class something which can put pressure on that build.
Maybe even give a class that is rare in HoH a skill which could prove to be the new fotm.
People would look forward to the updates, knowing that their favourite build will not be touched, so that will keep the PvE crowd happy, and the PvP crowd will not be facing the same old builds all the time.

Just my two gold.

Chewbacca Defense · Jan 23, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I wish I could use Diversion on this thread. If someone posts within the next 6 seconds, this thread will be diversioned and no one should be able to post for the next 60 seconds.

Alfrond · Jan 23, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasmaskman

Um...they are, and it's $50 in the game. If you're talking about *JUST* PvE, why would ANYONE want to buy GW without: AB, RA, TA, HA, GvG, etc. they are an idiot.

Couldn't you say the same thing about the pvp edition? About why anyone would want to buy GW without the story, the missions, the quests, the exploration, the fancy weapon and armor skins, etc. Just because someone likes to play different modes in GW than you doesn't make them an idiot.

Narcism · Jan 23, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I USED TO USE GLADS DEFENSE TOO BROTHA

now anet ruined my life and now I have to use elites like Triple Chop and actually kill mobs effectively.

Savio · Jan 23, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Moderator note: While a discussion on what actual, competitive PvP is would be nice for those who don't understand higher-end PvP, it's not particularly relevant to this discussion. Please talk about it somewhere else if you must.

Warskull · Jan 23, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Skill balance means next to nothing in PvE. You can take almost any 8 skills and get through PvE. Nerfs for the most part don't matter. If you were a glad's defense warrior you weren't so useful before. With the change you still aren't very useful. Really only buffs matter in the PvE area (they may buff a skill and cause monsters or bosses using it to become too powerful.) However monsters can be rebalanced in PvE to account for balance changes.

PvP, if a skill is imbalanced it will either be underpowered and become unused or overpowered and be abused. Skill balance has a massive effect on PvP gameplay and outside of the worst cases balance is rarely done for PvE.

The PvE motivated skill changes off the top of my head are:
Prot Bond
Minion change
Spirit Bond

Most PvE balance is done by AI adjustment and monster adjustment. Skill balance has to be extremely bad for it to break PvE.

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Once again I have to disagree with you saying it means next to nothing and that almost any 8 skills will do. That's absolutely not true. A skill balance doesn't have to break the game for it to affect the game. I am not saying that skill balances aren't important to PvP. They are. I understand this. They are more important to PvP. I know this as well. My point is that they matter to PvE as well and that when a skill in PvE becomes underpowered it hurts the game,maybe not to the breaking point but it hurts none the less.

Honestly when was the last time you got hit with a skill from a level 28 ele in PvP? If a critical healing skill to counter the insane level of damage gets nerfed it hurts us. By that same token high level monks and mesmers and other support type classes can dole out a much larger benefit to their party than anything you will face in PvP. It is not because of a lack of skill in PvP mind you but simply because of the mechanics of the game. Players will almost never be able to hit some of the attribute levels of monsters. PvP also affects monster AI. Prior to the last AI update spikes from monsters were unheard of, now they happen more often than a lot of us would like. This is because the AI has been set to a more PvP style of play. It makes it more challenging yes but it also means that nerfs and buffs will affect us more. A skill change doesn't have to be motivated by PvE to affect it. Just keep that in mind. We both use the same skill sets since they won't introduce an EQ like PvP mechanic with different skill effects for PvP and PvE.

Lonesamurai · Jan 23, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Once again I have to disagree with you saying it means next to nothing and that almost any 8 skills will do. That's absolutely not true. A skill balance doesn't have to break the game for it to affect the game. I am not saying that skill balances aren't important to PvP. They are. I understand this. They are more important to PvP. I know this as well. My point is that they matter to PvE as well and that when a skill in PvE becomes underpowered it hurts the game,maybe not to the breaking point but it hurts none the less.

Honestly when was the last time you got hit with a skill from a level 28 ele in PvP? If a critical healing skill to counter the insane level of damage gets nerfed it hurts us. By that same token high level monks and mesmers and other support type classes can dole out a much larger benefit to their party than anything you will face in PvP. It is not because of a lack of skill in PvP mind you but simply because of the mechanics of the game. Players will almost never be able to hit some of the attribute levels of monsters. PvP also affects monster AI. Prior to the last AI update spikes from monsters were unheard of, now they happen more often than a lot of us would like. This is because the AI has been set to a more PvP style of play. It makes it more challenging yes but it also means that nerfs and buffs will affect us more. A skill change doesn't have to be motivated by PvE to affect it. Just keep that in mind. We both use the same skill sets since they won't introduce an EQ like PvP mechanic with different skill effects for PvP and PvE.

So you admit to being the worst PvE'er ever?

Read up on a game before you buy it... Guild Wars is and always was originally balanced around pvp for competitive reasons...

You make it sound like your the only one nerfs affect... these changes affect Charr in the game as much as they affect you!

You don't hear Koss or Tahlkora whining the Evade has been removed from the game... You don't hear Rurik crying about being the worst NPC in a game ever... no, they get on with it, I get on with it and I play PVE with five skills, 2 cap sigs and a res sig on all 6 of my PvE characters...

Columbo · Jan 23, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynoski

To set a frame of reference...
I have beaten all three chapters,
I have minimal experience in the Elite areas (FOW, Tombs, Urgotz, etc)
I just unlocked the team arenas.
I have never done AB or GVG.
I do farm to improve my cast of charaters and to make money (quote PT Barnum here)

I feel sad that you have been using one Elite. I have about 85...as for the difficulty in capping...please, go look for Sandstorm or FOC.

It apears that most people here did not really understand my original point and have just begun to turn my intellectual disscusion thread into PVP vs PVE flamewars. I have beaten all 3 chapters with countless of my 9 characters. I have every single Elite capped with my Elementalist 291 in all. And all my tyrian characters have all tyrian elites also including my warrior. I have GMC titles for all 3 chapters and countless other achievement's in this game. I did not say Glad's defence was difficult to cap as I've done DL a million times with the old useless henchie's and me alone. I have pwned most "Elite" places in the game and do not farm for money only for thing's that I want for my own characters and now my characters hero's. And I do not even use my warrior for farming it's too slow and boring for me, Ele is much better. So the skill change is for how I use my warrior as a tank playing through the game not farming.

I did not expect you all to pick out the one fact I mentioned Glad defence as a particular skill. It could have been any skill and you all still would pick on that point. As I said I have not posted here until now and have learned a lesson already. Do not mention any one particular skill or topic or you will get chewed to bit's by everyone on that one point. I also stated that I love PVE and PVP (Though I must say I myself am bored with going to HOH only to find myself against BS, Smite bunnies, SF, SB, Vimway, Iway, Blah blah blah). I understand how PVP players do love PVP but how they can say PVE is boring and there is no intelligence needed etc. When PVP has become more of a one skill set one play type game than PVE ever will be.

The point I was trying to make is the game needs to be made more fair for all people's way of playing. I think it is highly unfair that when a skill is changed for PVE it affect's PVP and visa versa. I also think it is unfair that in PVP build's their is little or no opening's for different class types if you don't fit in to the "Uber Build" that everyone is now running there. One good way for A-net to make PVP much more chalenging and enjoyable would be to make it so you can only have 1 type of any particular class in a group in order to enter. This would not only make it ballanced it would make it much more about what skills you take and how good you are with the class you are playing.

However PVP still does affect to PVE even to the point that in order to get GMC on certain places you have to enter PVP places even if you are not interested in doing so (Jade Qurry, Aspenwood, Original arena's in Tyria before battle island's). My point was not to seperate PVP and PVE players even more than they already seem to be. Both aspect's of the game are great but why any change to one can affect the other there will always be hostilities between those who like one or the other. And to me that is just not right at the end of the day we all have one thing in common we love GW as a game. And we are a huge community and the only way we can get changes made is if we all try to work together and agree or agree to disagree on things. That way A-net can listen to all it's followers and make changes for the better for all of us.

Columbo · Jan 23, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Sry double posted

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

So you admit to being the worst PvE'er ever?

Read up on a game before you buy it... Guild Wars is and always was originally balanced around pvp for competitive reasons...

You make it sound like your the only one nerfs affect... these changes affect Charr in the game as much as they affect you!

You don't hear Koss or Tahlkora whining the Evade has been removed from the game... You don't hear Rurik crying about being the worst NPC in a game ever... no, they get on with it, I get on with it and I play PVE with five skills, 2 cap sigs and a res sig on all 6 of my PvE characters...

That was just uncalled for. I will however still address you in a calm and respectful manner. First off. I'm not whining. As I have stated time and time again. I know why skill balancing is done. I understand why it is done. I also realize that monsters use the same skills, for the most part anyway. Monsters can also be anywhere from 4-8 levels higher than any PvE player. My point being that to say that skill balances do not affect PvE isn't true. We all adapt after skill balances. The fact that we all have to, both PvP and PvE proves that the balances affect both sides of the equation equally.

Now I would like to add this. People like you, who are unable to address a situation without a jackassy comment leading into a discussion, are the reason why there is so much animosity on these boards, particularly between PvE and PvP. I suggest that a more diplomatic approach would serve you better in the future instead of opening with what could be construed as a blatant attempt at flaming or baiting. If we could all just address these issues civilly instead of like children then we could all enjoy not only the community here but the community in game that much more.

I agree with Columbo though. I personally would like to see an EQ system implemented into the game with differing effects for different environments. That is a skill functions one way for PvP purposes and it functions another way in PvE and you must set a switch on the skill in order to utilize it in the respective areas.

Narcism · Jan 23, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

If I can beat the game with henchies on a melee assassin.

Quote:

PVE is boring and there is no intelligence needed etc.

That point ^ has been reached.

SodOffShotgun · Jan 23, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbo

It apears that most people here did not really understand my original point and have just begun to turn my intellectual disscusion thread into PVP vs PVE flamewars.

What the heck did you expect when you make a thread about how "PVP is killing PVE?"

Chewbacca Defense · Jan 23, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

From Section 10 of the EULA:

Quote:

(c) NC Interactive has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to change and/or eliminate any aspect(s) of the Service as it sees fit in its sole discretion.

The whole argument is a moot point. At the end of the day we all signed the EULA. NC Interactive can do what they want from the server side. Skill changes have nothing to do with PvP or PvE, but rather how NC Interactive wants to run their business.

If they decide to have skill changes, then they can. At least they have the courtesy to see what the community's opinion of the changes are.

For a game without any monthly fee, I think people have way too high expectations of it.

It is not the PvP or the PvE community that's holding the gun to NC Interactive's head to say "Thou Shalt Skill Change." It's the company's own desire. And how can you argue against that? You signed the EULA. Time to get reacquainted with it.

With that in mind, there is NO OBLIGATION for them to make a balanced game. Let alone require the user community's permission to implement any changes...

With that in mind, they are still nice enough to ask for our opinions. I think we have a good thing going and we shouldn't be arguing about PvE vs. PvP, but actually enjoying what we have until they shut down the servers.

Columbo · Jan 23, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SodOffShotgun

What the heck did you expect when you make a thread about how "PVP is killing PVE?"

I do appologise for the wording of the title I should have added "And Visa Versa"
It was not meant to be a direct whine oh PVP this blah blah but an in general point that the 2 different types of this game are affecting one another too much. Please do not get angry about this everyone It is not meant to be a war between two faction's. It is meant to be about both faction's coming to a conclusion that would benefit both sides equally and give all of us the game experience we want, love and paid good money for in the first place. The only reason it was posted as "PVP is killing PVE" is because the skill change affected my PVE way of playing. Had it affected something I did in PVP I probably would have put PVE is Killing PVP even though I absolutely love PVE also. Then all the PVE 'ers would have been annoyed and started to flame it's not what it's about flaming get's all of us to one place NOWHERE.

Loviatar · Jan 23, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

NOTE

this is not mostly PVE vs PVP.

after every so called *game killing nerf* from day 1 most of the loudest,most bitter, im quitting if they dont reverse this been from...............

hard core farmers

not the casual person playing the game for fun.

biggest recent example was when they thought inscriptions were going to cut their income.

speaking of income just how does an 11/12 hour a day farmer pay the real life bills and get at least 5-6 hours of sleep anyway?

Trevor Reznik · Jan 23, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Dang, I was hoping this thread was about someone finally figuring out how to kill PvErs while they farmed/missioned. Ah well

Tortoise · Jan 23, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Squidget said all there is to be said on the first page of this thread (Yet I'll still have my say!!) We should let it die now. Yes, it must suck if your favorite skills get nerfed because of PvP. I feel sorry for you. Fact remains that PvP can be completely destroyed by imbalanced skills whilst PvE only will suffer slightly. If salvaging PvP means they have to make some overpowered skills balanced then so be it.

Sacrifices are being made on both ends. Is it really fair to make PvP players pay for a full campaign just so they can use the skills? Do you realize that the only reason why a PvP edition of the game is so highly priced is because of PvE. Is it really fair PvEers get an entire new continent to explore every 6 months and PvPers have to do with 4 new guildhalls and Hero battles? Don't act as though Anet is catering solely to the PvPers because they aren't. Don't act as though PvE is being martyred for the greater glory of PvP. It isn't.

PvP is dead without skillbalances. PvE is dead without new content. Can we let it die now?

crimsonfilms · Jan 23, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Most of us PvE'ers here differentiate between areas... between our own chosen builds... between those we participate with (even if its just AI). Anyone who becomes too familiar with a particular experience (same area, same party, same skills) is either farming there... or is doing in 10 runs what they could have done in 1...

Which is MOOT. It does not matter how you classify your build, the area, the monsters, etc. You know it already. They are predictable. 90% of your actions are predetermined.

Quote:

One shouldn't overlook however the fact that many judgements are split-second when it actually comes to the fight itself.... the complication is mostly in the preparation...

Incorrect. Preparation is only a third. There is execution and adjustment is the other.
What do you do when the proper counter is not in your skillbar? In PvE - you try again. In PvP - you try to THINK of another way.
For example, setting up a catapult trap for a non predictable enemy (like those monsters in pre-searing) may actually involve no in game skill but all player skill.

The fact your said it is all preparation only solidifies the argument that SKILL BALANCING is very important to PvP.

Quote:

You don't have to worry about sneaking past groups of enemies without triggering aggro as everyone has maps and know you're there. You don't have to worry so much about finding something elusive in a largely unfamiliar area... as what you need to find is out in the open.

Wow you actually think controlling aggro takes skill and coordination? They all move in a predetermined path that a 10 year old can understand.
Where is the advance mental skill needed there?

The biggest IRONY of ALL?
PEOPLE who complain the biggest about PvP are people who BARELY OR NEVER have played PvP (RA and AB dont count. They never did).

While the so called ELITEST PvPers have PvE characters that has finished all three chapters and probably capped all elites for their PvP ready PvE chars.

So basically, stop talking about things you have no clue about.