Curse

HawkofStorms · Feb 05, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

I'm a primarly PvE player.

All these people whining just makes me sad. SKILLS ALWAYS change in GW. They do it like 4 times a year. If you can't handle that, stop playing, cause in a few months your just going to get pissed off again when your new cookie-cutter build is nerfed.

bug_out · Feb 05, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Yay, another day, another PvE vs PvP thread. Guess what? Neither side wins and we all look like idiots.

Steps Ascending · Feb 05, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

some quick notes

1. Nerfs affect PvE simply because the same skills are used it PvE. Be it just a change in the build (or sometime change the entire build) the easy answer is just to adapt , but then why dont the PvP-er dont simply adapt or just use the FotM too(i think the strongest around is SF spam)

2. i got some one reminding that ANet has proved times and again that it favored PvP way-above PvE. -> Now that is THE argument! (i'm talking seriously) But then again that cannot be true, because the game would surely die with only PvP and if it stayed without montly fee(the adition of wich would surely be a blow for GW since i'm sure most smart people would switch for another game with better PvP (understand WoW).

3. Some one mentionned that GW was at first intended to test skill&wit instead of your avatar's strengh. Guess what I went far enough to forget that point. (/sarcasm) I though it was FotM vs whiners (/endsarcasm). Anyway thks for reminding me of the good old prophecy time. By the way how long do you think prophecy would have lasted with only PvP, I doubt it would have kept you around 2 years (i think that's the time it took for Faction to come out).

4.

Quote:

Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it.
Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion

And that's the forth intelligent being I meet on this forum (the others 2 being random people I've forgotten the names that got some really good points and myself who forgot the other 2 names so I probably shouldn't be in the 4 intelligents beings)

Finale : don't try to change PvE, accept it and catch the wave.
As a side note, to have actually fun PvE : PUG with 3-4 people max + 2 AI (group of 6 MAX for those that didn't get it), that way you're sure to have a group that will hold together and you can spot&kick the leavers/jerks. They also say that the peoples IQ is invertly (can I evan say it?) proportional to the nomber of individuals around him/her so the more people = the dumber they are.
AIs are there to fill the holes and help you when you can't find anyone.

Edit :

Quote:

Yay, another day, another PvE vs PvP thread. Guess what? Neither side wins and we all look like idiots.

Hehehe I found the fifth inteligent being around.

Vermilion · Feb 05, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it.
Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion

I think the same way, actually. Morrowind for example, is a great game for roleplaying. Sure the main quest doesn't allow deviation from the Goodguy killing Badguy scenario, but you don't need to finish the MQ to enjoy the game. How many Pvers can enjoy it without finishing the game?

Lonesamurai · Feb 05, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny

Um, I just had a thought towards solving this problem...

Okay, first, I recognized a looong time ago that GW is just a PvP game with a thin, shallow, poorly built world around it.
Accepting that has helped me ENJOY PvE more, by NOT comparing it to RPG giants like The Elder Scrolls that go for total immersion.

The problem here is that the discussion (and apparently ANet) is treating PvE and PvP like two sides of the same coin.
They are no such thing.

ANet do no such thing, it is purely the community that makes a split and Differenciates between the two... ANet have two words for the game...

Guild Wars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny

My suggestion:
Return skills to their original configurations in PvE, and leave them in their current state in PvP.
If a player wishes to bring a PvE character into an arena or the battle isles, a loading screen will inform him/her that his/her skills are being reconfigured for PvP play.

What I'm seeing from all this bickering, is that the bigger the gap between PvE and PvP within the game itself, the better.

It wouldn't work, how, realistically, could you split them and not double the skills and break half of them for PvP?

Cebe · Feb 05, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Spiritual Pain.

Suddenly players have to actually think a little when using Domination, again. Scary!

Very true. Such a shame about this skill...I did like it very much. Now though in PvE it is completely and utterly useless. Even if it did deserve a nerf...did it need to be nerfed THAT harshly?

Anyhoo, it didn't take a lot of thinking about to re-build by Domination build. I just reverted back to an old build which hasn't been nerfed to hell...but now I'm using Hex Eater Vortex instead of Energy Surge. But wait. Why, since they were in the mood, did they not nerf Hex Eater Vortex so that instead of dealing 126 damage to all adjacant foes and removing one enchantment it actually deals 10 damage to one adjacent foe and no longer removes enchantments - wouldn't that make it more "fair"? *sigh* I hate PvP... And yes, I'm bitter.

The Abbott · Feb 05, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.

I am completly PVE and have always got angry at PVP people demanding nerfs,

I'm 27 years old so I'm far from immature or ignorant and the guy I just quoted above has just made me look at things from a whole different perspective, I suppose when a game shares two genres this is gonna happen. None of us (pve) should get upset by this and just see it as the future of the game.

Basically its 1 skillset shared by two different communities, its inevitable one side is gonna lose out occasionally when changes are made.

creelie · Feb 05, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

It's not always the PvP usage of a skill that leads to a nerf, either. Remember Spirit Bond?

dgb · Feb 05, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Maybe it would be best to fully define your “Most” statement so all of here can see what you are talking about. Are we talking pre-searing or post-searing what about missions and boss, let’s not forget the huge exploreable areas and is that using just henchmen or just hero’s or combo of both, what class are we talking about too, ya know that “most” list is looking pretty small.

next time you might want to add some meat to your post. just a suggestion.

Ok, here goes. I'm primarily a PVP player. That said, I have something of a liking for my monk. In fact it has two grand master cartographer titles and on the way to the third - I feel that I've killed a lot of PVE monsters getting these.

Throughout Elona, with no exception, I felt perfectly comfortable agroing a mob, then either going afk or alt-tabbing knowing well that when I come back, the mob will be dead and my group will have minimum DP. The only time this didn't occur is when I messed up a patrol set and in my absence ended up with a double or tripple aggro situation. For single aggro situations, for the most I didn't even need to be playing, let alone having any skills on my bar.

Throughout Cantha, all except the Shiro'ken infested areas and the well designed Jade Brotherhood mobs in the city I felt I could do the same.

I haven't done enough of Tyria to comment.

Enough meat for you?

In my experience, the only thing that makes PVE hard for players is their insistence on using retarded builds.

The Abbott · Feb 05, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Ok, here goes. I'm primarily a PVP player. That said, I have something of a liking for my monk. In fact it has two grand master cartographer titles and on the way to the third - I feel that I've killed a lot of PVE monsters getting these.

Throughout Elona, with no exception, I felt perfectly comfortable agroing a mob, then either going afk or alt-tabbing knowing well that when I come back, the mob will be dead and my group will have minimum DP. The only time this didn't occur is when I messed up a patrol set and in my absence ended up with a double or tripple aggro situation. For single aggro situations, for the most I didn't even need to be playing, let alone having any skills on my bar.

Throughout Cantha, all except the Shiro'ken infested areas and the well designed Jade Brotherhood mobs in the city I felt I could do the same.

I haven't done enough of Tyria to comment.

Enough meat for you?

In my experience, the only thing that makes PVE hard for players is their insistence on using retarded builds.

being a monk means your group missed no extra damage and were therefore able to inflict the same damage they would have if you were actually playing,

and of course just your henchmen are good enough for most of the game.. that IS what they are there for remember.. to be a party for you, I mean if the henchmen werent good enough to do any mission at all then why have them? just get rid of them and make it a 100% group game. but we know thats not gonna happen as people need help when they have no one else to ask..

Moa Bird Cultist · Feb 05, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Yup, yet another PvE Vs PvP flamefest.

The fact of the matter is skill balances will continue to occur, no matter what the circumstances. It can't be avoided, so it's best to just accept it as a part of the game. Although I still don't like the sandstorm nerf. It was way too over the top and anyone with half a brain can see that. Still, my ele can just go back to her old build, (which btw, is really very retarded

.)

Lonesamurai · Feb 05, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Abbott

I am completly PVE and have always got angry at PVP people demanding nerfs,

I'm 27 years old so I'm far from immature or ignorant and the guy I just quoted above has just made me look at things from a whole different perspective, I suppose when a game shares two genres this is gonna happen. None of us (pve) should get upset by this and just see it as the future of the game.

Basically its 1 skillset shared by two different communities, its inevitable one side is gonna lose out occasionally when changes are made.

Ok, I like that you understand it, but may I suggest something?

Ok, we all know (or hopefully know) why skills are balanced (?) around PvP, but alot of PvE'ers don't think to ask why a skill was changed, nor do i think that PvP'ers can be bothered dealing with "n00bs" long enough to explain why (nor do they have the patience)... This is where ANet need to give us more information...

Ok, Izzy can't explain the entire 120 skill balance, but it would be nice for the testers to actually go through some of the reasons for skill changes (balances and nerfs), the Pvp community are just as up in arms about some as the Pve community is... there are some balances and nerfs in the last update that are the complete opposite of what is needed, with no explanation for them...

More info is a must ANet! Tell us why you did some of these!!!

Priest Of Sin · Feb 05, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

To those saying that people are smarter than monster AI, take this into consideration. My friend and I ran an ele spike in HA. Basically, we had 2 ele heroes heach, and we were running water snare eles. The 2 ele heroes would use arcane echo+sandstorm+sandtorm, that's x8 sandstorm. My friend and I would keep them snared in the sandstorm, and we got around 90 fame off this strategy. We blew away Zergway, SomW, SF, and all the other cookie-cutter builds. This experience has led me to believe that the average PvPer is as dumb as the average monster. But to a PvEer, AoE is instant death (DoA monsters and AoE don't mix), so the PvEer will scatter faster than vermin after the AI update. Kinda ironic that the last person alive on each team we obliterated was clearly a PvE character.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 05, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I just had to remove a whole load of posts that completely ignored my previous request. Please keep down the insults or I'll be forced to close this thread.

Thanks
Ashleigh.

Alleji · Feb 05, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Oh come on, every PvEr had his chance to experience:

* SF nuker (aka Djinns)
* Sandstorm nuker (aka Crags)
* Iway warrior (aka white mantle)
* Ranger Spikers (Aviacra ranger groups)
* Touchers (Stygian something)

Rofl.

Do those SF djinns have monk support? Come in groups of 3+ at once? (Ok, occasionally they do) Have 8 skills on their bar? Have a brain?

Same applies to "sandstorm nukers"... the damage from a boss's sandstorm is comparable to a sandstorm ball team in HA, but that's about it.

Mantle = IWAY warriors? I don't know, but IWAY warriors I faced had more than IWAY and power attack on their bars... and they were lvl 20 too, I think.

Avicara ranger groups are probably one of the nastiest things in PvE, I have to agree with you there. Still, it doesn't compare to a ranger spike. You can't prot up your wammo and have him aggro a ranger spike team, while the rest of your party nukes their spikers.

Bastian · Feb 05, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny

1. Yes it is realistic, because it requires almost no effort on the part of Anet.
They can just reset the skills in PvE.

And how are they going to reset the skills just for PvE? You do understand that there is a high probability that those skills are globally run under one set of code for both PvP and PvE? Furthermore, it would probably take quite a bit of time to seperate the two into two seperate programs. Not to mention buying all new servers to support both PvP and PvE seperately - for the entire globe. All while NOT charging us a monthly fee for the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars worth of labor and equipment.

Please, the next time you say something is realistic, requires almost no effort, and assume that things would still cost the same - don't open your mouth right away. You are flat out wrong. Have you ever tried programming anything, let alone an entire game as in depth as GW? All while making sure the game interacts seemlessly between at least 5 continents? I know I haven't, but I have enough common sense to know it's probably not easy.

Str0b0 · Feb 05, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

This is why PvP and PvE should be completely and utterly separated and in no way shape or form dependent on one another. They should have different skill tables for PvP ala Everquest, and anyone wanting to take a PvE character to PvP should be forced to switch to the PvP version of the skill. As for this PvP attitude fest here, though I expect it from this forum, Get over yourselves. We paid the same 50 bucks, or more, as you people did and are therefore entitled to whine and complain and piss and moan as much as you people do, and you people do! Don't tell me that PvP doesn't whine and cry as much as PvE because I'll go back through the post history, or hell just look in Gladiators Arena and look up all the whiney posts about Mystic Regen just to name one.

That being said if you don't like PvE then don't knock it and don't insult the other players with snide remarks about empty skillbars and ridiculous ease and such. All those are are catty and backhanded insults and just barely under the radar flames. How about you just stick to your PvP and when you see someone whining and crying about nerfs in PvE then just shake your head and move on while remembering that we paid for the game too and are as entitled as you are to whine about it. For those of you who play both, that still doesn't justify your crap either so don't make catty comments and then hide behind the screen of being a PvE player too. That's just cowardly. At least have the conviction to stand by your insulting remarks.

Shmanka · Feb 05, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

To those saying that people are smarter than monster AI, take this into consideration. My friend and I ran an ele spike in HA. Basically, we had 2 ele heroes heach, and we were running water snare eles. The 2 ele heroes would use arcane echo+sandstorm+sandtorm, that's x8 sandstorm. My friend and I would keep them snared in the sandstorm, and we got around 90 fame off this strategy. We blew away Zergway, SomW, SF, and all the other cookie-cutter builds. This experience has led me to believe that the average PvPer is as dumb as the average monster. But to a PvEer, AoE is instant death (DoA monsters and AoE don't mix), so the PvEer will scatter faster than vermin after the AI update. Kinda ironic that the last person alive on each team we obliterated was clearly a PvE character.

You really brought yourself to a philosophical problem.

I can go outside right now and say that all cars are red on the basis that I see only 2 cars right now outside in the parking lot. Your basis of 90 fame is pretty unrealistic for an analysis on the "average pvp'er".

There is skill applied in PvE though I agree, yet I see people comparing it as the "same" skill PvP and PvE share. This I find untrue.

PvE has the following; Routine patrols, specific spawn locations, skill priority
PvP has the following; Personal preference, random environments, no knowledge of the opponent

PvE is being prepared to take on something you know is there, when PvP is not and when you fail, you lose.

PvE takes a different kind of "skill" by the basis of "knowledge" and for those who use heroes like you would yourself that is amazing. At the moment I am finally starting to get the hang of monking being an elementalist at the same time, it is quite difficult for me anyway even in the PvE environment.

PvP skill takes on the aspect of making builds where in a Rock Paper Scissors format your trying to find the TNT that blows them all away. This comes to the "skill" on the basis of "understanding" you have to be able to comprehend what happens in mere seconds to have a solution with your build. If not you fail.

What is more difficult to gain a grasp of? I would say PvP IMO. I fell in love with PvE quite easily yet I still find PvP challenging in some aspects.

Steps Ascending · Feb 05, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

could be interesting to look at other games where the Pve/PvP war is not so ... hot. And look a bit at what makes it more balanced.

FoxBat · Feb 05, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

A clearer way to put it is like this: PvE has a fixed difficulty, and therefore your team only needs to reach a certain level of efficiency to be viable. You can just barely meet that level or you can vastly overshoot it, either way you win. In PvP you are randomly paired against opponents, some of them who may be very good. You don't need an effecient build to beat four w/mos in TA, but you just might need a very efficient one when facing grenth derv/thump/mes/monk team. PvP players therefore generally try to maximize their team's efficiency so they have a better chance of defeating the most difficult opponents.

Throughout basically anything but the elite missions, GW PvE has the difficulty bar set low enough that there are many, many viable builds, and far more than there are in PvP. In this situation, skill balance doesn't seem that vital. But hop on over to a game like WoW, where PvP is something of a joke, and classes are constantly nerfed and buffed based primarly on PvE. This is because much more of WoW is devoted to "elite mission" equivalents, raiding. There are places where you need to hit a certain DPS just to not get wiped, or use a certain combination of abilities with a mostly fixed team balance, etc. The difficulty is still fixed but it is set higher than much of GW, and efficiency is also a more pressing concern when it takes several hours to complete a dungeon. Thus when one class overshadows another to the point that people always want class A and ignore class B, there is a need for rebalance, nerfs to A, and buffs to B, otherwise the end result is class B is effectively removed from the game because no-one will play it or can use it.

So basically, the fact that almost no-one can see the need for any nerfs in PvE... just proves the point that build efficiency isn't very important to PvE. Because if it was, we might see PvE players talking about balancing out the classes so SF eles and MMs stop being the only choices for 99% of the game... but mostly we just hear the SFs and MMs whining when they get nerfed.