Curse

Skuld · Feb 10, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

Wow..we are learning so much from your PvE experience mighty one, post useful reply to those who lost their favorite character and skills or don't post at all..mod.

Truth hurts?

Navaros · Feb 10, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Ugh. Such horrible logic. You cant honestly believe the garbage you just wrote.

Sure I believe it, and reality bears it out therefore it's not garbage. You wanna try to refute it, go ahead, and be specific with where the logic is wrong. Maybe start by naming one common & effective build in Guild Wars' history used in Tombs or GVG that hasn't been nerfed to smithereens after whining by PVP players.

Antithesis · Feb 10, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

ok pve'ers, you will last 2 secs longer to kill some mindless mob, who cares?

the paragons were overpowered in pvp, because there are really few counters to them.

All you've done is prove the point that the problem stems from PvP, not PvE.
When is 1 or 2 paragons / necro's / mesmers etc ever a real threat on their own in PvP? Bundle 6 or 8 of them together and there's your problem!

It's the mechanics of PvP that are ruining it for PvE. I agree, most PvE is relatively easy...so what? But the constant nerfing of BALANCED PvE builds to satisfy UNBALANCED PvP is ruining the game for me.

I, and i dare say most others, came originally to GW to PvE and dabble occasionally in PvP. Give me the peace and quiet of Heroes and Henchies any day over the constant FOTM exploits, abuse and elitism of even low-level PvP.

arcanemacabre · Feb 10, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

I sense yet another PvP vs. PvE brawl on the horizon. When will Anet just own up and realise that PvP and PvE are like cats and dogs: Some people are dog people, some are cat people, a handful love both, but you can't force dogs on the cat people, and you can't force cats on the dog people. The two must simply remain separate, as they will never get along.

EDIT: For the record, I am quite upset about the recent "balances" for the Paragon. I now have no reason to play my Paragon, and she will be my new mule until new "balances" make her useful again. It's not a nerf, it's castration. Don't think so? Tell me one thing the Paragon can do better than any other class, just one.

Longasc · Feb 10, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

That's the problem. They should be making "overpowered" builds BALANCED, not USELESS. That is a concept Anet does not seem to understand. At least let me trade in "Incoming" for a new Sig of Cap so I can get something worth having.

QFT.

They should fire their balancer, his latest actions were again not balancing, but destruction.

He does not get the concept of balance. It is definitely not making a skill so obviously powerful that there is no question of not using it or to nerf it to hell that it does not even deserve a place on any skillbar anymore.

The next problem is the "nerfed because of HA" focus. It was PvP in general before, but now it is also so terribly focused on HA.

Do they really believe they make the halls more attractive by giving them the top priority when fixing skills?

HA is only one mode of PvP. One! And a damn unpopular one, HA is totally empty, except on this weekend maybe. And I doubt it stays like this. There is GvG, RA, TA, Hero Battles... and AB, PvE and whatever. They must be taken in account as well.

I absolutely agree, annoying and driving away the huge majority of players and especially Paragon players atm because of this is a mistake.

dgb · Feb 10, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

The next problem is the "nerfed because of HA" focus. It was PvP in general before, but now it is also so terribly focused on HA.

Care to actually back this up? Everything that is nerfed for PVP has been a problem everywhere, Grenth in GVG, Grenth in HA, Searing Flames in GVG, Searing Flames in HA, Steady Stance in GVG, Steady Stance in HA, mass Paragon teams in GVG, mass Paragon teams in HA, Jagged Bones soul reaping abuse in GVG, Jagged Bones soul reaping abuse in HA.

It's *easier* to abuse broken stuff in HA, but it gets abused everywhere else for the most, except where you need to have everyone on your team in synch for it to work (RA).

Silver Spook · Feb 10, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Wow...

Do they try balance this game around HA or GvG, because they are taking impossible task as long HA is 3 teams with changing goal if they try balance pvp around HA.

Skuld · Feb 10, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

HA is only one mode of PvP. One! And a damn unpopular one, HA is totally empty, except on this weekend maybe. And I doubt it stays like this. There is GvG, RA, TA, Hero Battles... and AB, PvE and whatever. They must be taken in account as well.

I forgot who said it, but the game is balanced on GvG, HA and farming. The rest do not need top priority as imbalances are generally not gamebreaking.

Antithesis · Feb 10, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I forgot who said it, but the game is balanced on GvG, HA and farming. The rest do not need top priority as imbalances are generally not gamebreaking.

But the question remains - why do these imbalances occur in HA and to a lesser extent GvG? It's because balance is not encouraged when you can just throw together 6 faction farmers with cheesy FOTM builds and march through more experienced players running balanced builds. There's no incentive to play a balanced build when cheese beats rocks, paper and scissors!

I seriously doubt Anet will ever limit the numbers of each profession on a PvP team. But it should be considered as an option when i'm guessing they don't design character classes and skills with 6-8 of the same build necro's, para's, thumpers, touchers, iways or ele's in mind, thereby making it a crapload harder to properly balance the skills for the way most people would like to use them. The game and skills appear to be designed with 1 or 2 players of the same profession per team in mind like a healer and a protector, an ss and an mm, a motivator and a leader, an interrupter and a barrager, an SF and a sandstormer etc... 1 or 2 on their own won't devastate the opposition, but even 3 or 4 can become a serious hindrance.

Takeko Nakano · Feb 10, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Ok, that's it. I'm going to stop playing with my Paragon now. I might even try to salvage the sup vigor rune from her and delete the character.

I am boycotting my Paragon until ANet un-nerf it. I don't care about PvP lamoes who are too tight to take the necro skills that are the bane of Paragons. PvE is still the largest part of the game for most GW players, and these nerfs have made the Paragon a lot less desirable.

psychofski · Feb 10, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

WTB a rit spike nerf paying good whisper me

Takeko Nakano · Feb 10, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

ok pve'ers, you will last 2 secs longer to kill some mindless mob, who cares?

People who focus on PvE care - and that's most of the GW community.

Quote:

the paragons were overpowered in pvp, because there are really few counters to them.

LOL, there are counters. The problem is that PvP noobs were too cheap to bring along those skills because they were only really useful versus Paragons and didn't want to lose any skill slots for battles against other teams.

isamu kurosawa · Feb 10, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

ok pve'ers, you will last 2 secs longer to kill some mindless mob, who cares?

the paragons were overpowered in pvp, because there are really few counters to them.

What is it with people always using the term "PvE Scrub", PvE players are equal to pvp players in their opinions, they paid the same (usually more due to CE) amount of money as pvp players and like it or not pve makes up the largest part of the community. If every pve player quit it would not bode well for the future of guild wars.

Makes me sick seing that term used all the time, nothing but offensive for no reason at all.

The Ernada · Feb 10, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Now I've seen everything. PVE'ers calling PVP players "noobs" when they themselves dont even PVP. I'm not saying one is better than the other but the logic there is idiotic. It's like an electrician telling a plumber how to fix the plumbing.

And yes, calling people PVE scrubs is equally as bad.

Antithesis · Feb 10, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Now I've seen everything. PVE'ers calling PVP players "noobs" when they themselves dont even PVP. I'm not saying one is better than the other but the logic there is idiotic. It's like an electrician telling a plumber how to fix the plumbing.

And yes, calling people PVE scrubs is equally as bad.

PvP'ers may not be noobs, but HA has a distinct odour of cheese.

Longasc · Feb 10, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I forgot who said it, but the game is balanced on GvG, HA and farming. The rest do not need top priority as imbalances are generally not gamebreaking.

This is the attitude that will break their neck, Skuld.

I remember this statement (it was from Isaiah Cartwright) from the Games Convention and several times before, and his interpretation of his own words boil down to this:

Give a damn about PvE when balancing skills.

This is just wrong. Add in the usual condescending comment about PvE being shit in general. It should not be. It is their bread and butter and what sells the game, regardless of their constant tries to make their often not really that attractive PvP modes (read HA) more attractive.

They cannot afford Izzy's attitude that hardly any skill balancing can break PvE. They need to provide a challenging and fun PvE experience as well, not C-Space till you meet Shiro and DoA. Story and immersive graphics cannot make up for this lacking PvE level design forever. - The lack of a balanced PvE experience is not only related to skill nerfs and buffs though.

I wanted to add this before, but now I will put it on the end, found no better place/thread:

- I just read some other skills got changed, too. Would not wonder if they buffed or nerfed some of the skills nobody bothered with so far, gotta check this later.

Edit: Turned out to be wrong info. Checked and found no other changes.

The Ernada · Feb 10, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

How about they lower the hitpoints of monsters, lower their damage and just lower their level everytime there is a skill balance so that any nerfed skills will still massacre them? Make it so that it would be the same effectiveness before nerfs. Would that make you people stop complaining that nerfs have made PVE less fun?

windcaller · Feb 10, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

What Anet should do is start adopting an anti-nerf mentality, and very rarely ever nerf anything. The hardcore PVP players who are not skilled enough to counter the skills as they were originally designed should learn to play better instead of having the "whine about it incessantly until Anet nerfs it for us" mentality which ends up ruining the game for the majority of players every time Anet swings the nerf bat.

i agree. IWAY was nerfed quite late, and only because beginners couldn't beat them. Now zergway was nerfed because newbies couldn't beat them. Mesmers were nerfed because some moaned.

Will anyone listen to more experienced players?!

Res Ipsi · Feb 10, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

How about they lower the hitpoints of monsters, lower their damage and just lower their level everytime there is a skill balance so that any nerfed skills will still massacre them? Make it so that it would be the same effectiveness before nerfs. Would that make you people stop complaining that nerfs have made PVE less fun?

This is actually a good point. In PvP, the balance affects everyone equally. In PvE, the balance affects the PvE'ers only - the enemy AI still has an advantage due to their higher attributes. Basically, PvE'ers are forced to use inferior skills to beat buffed AI. If ANet insists on making things comfy-cozy for PvP'ers by balancing the skills across the players, make comparable adjustments to enemy AI.
ETA: I'm referring primarily to the enemy AI in places like DoA.

Antithesis · Feb 10, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

How about they lower the hitpoints of monsters, lower their damage and just lower their level everytime there is a skill balance so that any nerfed skills will still massacre them? Make it so that it would be the same effectiveness before nerfs. Would that make you people stop complaining that nerfs have made PVE less fun?

For me it has little to do with the difficulty of PvE. I'll cop whatever nerf comes my way, adapt and still love the game. It has to do with the reasoning behind the nerf and that is imbalances in PvP, specifically cheesy exploitative HA farming builds.

They've nerfed the hell out of PvE farming (eg AOE nerf killed a good percentage of skills Anet themselves designed so we could take on numerically superior mobs) which i personally do for some challenging solo fun. They've killed off running and power-levelling to force us through the campaign for the umpteenth time to get all of our toons up to lvl20 or to capture a late-game elite (i have 3 accounts, 30+ characters, no way in hell i have the time for that). Didn't they create the Drok's run and troll cave for that exact purpose? So why not nerf the HA farmers looking for their shiny e-peen Phoenix emote by killing the cause of the problem - no limitations on players per class per team resulting in unexpected skill imbalances because the game wasn't built for a team 6 by X. Set it to 3 per profession and watch the metagame transform overnight.