Curse

Zedd Kun · Feb 12, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Anet HAS to stop making support classes. Noone wants them, because noone knows what they are capable of. Someone think that all classes except monk are made for only damage dealing (stupid 12 years old wammos). I have a rit, and I have a hard time finding a group, because noone understant a rit, or the group already has a rit, and it's not wort bringing two.
Every group want one or more monks, warriors or eles.. But support classes.. Nah. There is no use for two in a group.

Hephaestus Ram · Feb 12, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Muhkuh

when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.
stuff.

when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.

^^
Maybe this is what the problem is. I just finished nightfall with my
paragon, was really happy with him but I had to customize my entire
group to make use of the skills he had available. I didn't have to do
that with any of the five other characters I've gotten through that
chapter, I could just use the same general set up for all of them.

It's bad enough to have to spend an hour trying to get a full group
together, but then to have to convince them all to customize their
set up to accomodate one character, when you can just pass on him
for someone that will work in the group "as is" might be too much to
ask.

I had to do most of the chapter with heroes and henches because I
either couldn't get in a group, or when forming the group, I couldn't
get people to adjust their set up. They want to use the skill set that
they're used to, and if you insist that the change something, they
just leave. It's just the nature of PUGs.

ikpt · Feb 12, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Paragons useless? No way...

wynoski · Feb 12, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I always take Morghan with me to any remotely challenging area, along with olias MM and zhed searing flames. GftE affects all the minions giving them a ton of damage, Zhed sets everything on fire and ToF protects the entire party plus makes sturdier minions. Seeing how well paragons synergize with two very popular PvE builds, it's really silly that they aren't finding their way into more PuGs.

it is really sad when people try to look at a class unto itself as a stand alone. I remember all the moaning about Rits at the start...with the addition of heros and classes like the paragon, the challenge is not to look beyond your 8 skills and now try to synergize between 32 skills.

I agree that morghan is very effective along with other heros..that's why I love ther heros...I now have controll over 32 skills with a ton of profession combos...live a littel...grow a little..think our side the core professions

Spura · Feb 12, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52

Problem is that those 2 skills are quickly becoming the only skills worth anything in the whole profession. Any nerfs to these 2 and it's all over. Usual bar has those 2, anthem of flame(to keep up aggressive) and bunch of spear attacks(not that they are good, but you are specced in this thing anyway, might as well use them).

Problem with class is that is has weapon attribute and also ways of buffing that.
It was pure design flaw on anet's part.
So if profession with sword DPS is given GtfE, which on average adds +15 damage per hit affected, guess what's the best scenario. 6 such attackers and each has Gtfe of his own. 6 * 15 extra damage each time all of them throw the spears. The fact that they also have ways of healing whole party and high AL just makes it worse. Then everything is nerfed and now the same mass paragon builds persist but it is much harder for single paragon, especially in pugs.

Aggressive refrain and Gtfe are everything that keeps the profession afloat, most other things are crap. Especially problematic are single target shouts like "Find Their Weakness", "Can't Touch This"(wish this was targeted at least), "Lead the way", "Make Your Time", which already aren't that potent but are further weakened by huge energy requirements. Unless you do Gtfe spam at the time, it is very hard to use these 10 energy single target shouts. And with cost raises, GtfE spam is absolutely vital to use most of paragon's stuff.

Hell lots of skills are so borked that even adjusting the numbers won't help, they need functionality redesign. Especially elites. The best elite you can run now on paragon is Expel Hexes or Healer's Covenant(to be stolen off you by monk with Arcane Mimicry and Channeling for free heals).

Acidic Won · Feb 12, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

The best elite you can run now on paragon is Expel Hexes or Healer's Covenant(to be stolen off you by monk with Arcane Mimicry and Channeling for free heals).

Hi I play Guild Wars PvP I'm not quite sure what you play or why on earth you would run that. Anet is simply setting the paragon for what they want it to be. They will continue to nerf until they see it fit in which the role they want it to fill.

bryann380 · Feb 12, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

When my paragon and dervish both lost their chance to become Legendary Survivor, I stopped adventuring as them. That was the main reason I made them in the first place. So now, my paragon's new permanent role is "Urgoz Warren ferry operator". Free for my guildmates/alliance, 100 gold each for everyone else (to cover the guest invitation cost, she leaves from our guild hall). My dervish is now "The Deep ferry operator".

-LiamB · Feb 12, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I love my Paragon, and with my skill setup, and the 2 Monks, the team very rarely fall below 75% health =)

Shmanka · Feb 12, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

When my paragon and dervish both lost their chance to become Legendary Survivor, I stopped adventuring as them. That was the main reason I made them in the first place. So now, my paragon's new permanent role is "Urgoz Warren ferry operator". Free for my guildmates/alliance, 100 gold each for everyone else (to cover the guest invitation cost, she leaves from our guild hall). My dervish is now "The Deep ferry operator".

Are we discussing the use in PvE or PvP here? Cause honestly... Dervish's were overpowered now underpowered. I just think the problem is that Anet doesnt want some barrier to be broken.

At the moment I would say based on my experience in PvP based off HA and countless gvg I consider 25-30% of the elite skills all available in all 3 campaigns pvp worthy. What's more horrible is that all the non elite skills I would say is approximately 15-20% The OP didnt just post something about paragons, this is a problem for all classes, where do monk's and rits fit in? Where do warriors, assasins, and dervish's fit in? Trust me, at the moment we all don't know the only reason most of us play warrior is because it has been around longer. Since AoG got its legs cut off we switched back our gvg build to 2 basic pressure warriors again, assasins don't cut it, and now the dervish offers nothing even in all Avatar forms. They need to step up every skill in this game Elite and Non Elite to the "better then normal" level I want skills more like Gale and Diversion, Dash, Frenzy, Ether Prodigy, Blessed Light, Gift of Health etc etc.

Why even "over nerf" a skill? I still question half of the paragon skills to this day why it was "over nerfed". "Incomming!" had it... well comming, but other then that I truly had no problems with the Paragon in any pvp format.

The Ernada · Feb 12, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Sure a lot of skills really could get a look at and could use a buff. But it seems a lot of people think a skill or a class is useless unless it can make a dozen enemies explode with a click of a button or give them invincible mode. If you're going to use such extreme terms such as "useless" then expect people to view you on the other extreme.

mqstout · Feb 12, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I think the crux of this thread can be boiled down to this:

People don't have the paragon we have, the paragon that has solely two functions with only 5ish total useful skills to choose from:
*spear-chucking single-target damage
*armor boosts.

People were expecting and want the full-party, useful-buffs-for-everyone class that it started as.

Zonzai · Feb 12, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Paragons are not that great in PvP. But I love having one with me in PvE. *If* they knows what they are doing.

This is the way that it is for many classes. Paragon, Necromancer, Ritualist, Assassin and Elementalist are, at best, situationally useful in GvG. While other professions dominate PvE, HoH, TA or RA. That's just the way that it is. There are really only two professions that excell in all areas fo the game; Warrior and Monk.

So, unless you are playing one of those to professions, expect to not be usefull everywhere you go.

As far as nerfs go, I play an elementalist - when I can - and I feel your pain. It took ANet over a year from their first big nerf to elementalists to rebalance them to the point where they could efficiently do their job again.

I expect that the Paragon will be in the same boat, though hopefully Paragons won't have to wait a year to be made usefull again.

But I think Spura is right on the money with his analysis. The Paragon profession is fundamentally flawed in it's very design. It will take a lot of rebalancing to fix them.

-EDIT-

Also, if you ever get the chance try adding a paragon with some burning condition skills to your PvE group with SF nukers. It works out quite well. But that's a niche build.

Ensign · Feb 12, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Problem is that those 2 skills are quickly becoming the only skills worth anything in the whole profession.

They're far from the only skills worth using, but they are definitely the only really attractive skills the profession offers - the kinds of skills that get PvP and otherwise serious players to take a character. Anthem of Flame is solid, I think it's worth taking for the effect as well as maintaining Aggressive Refrain - though I wouldn't take a Paragon just for Aggressive Refrain - and "Stand Your Ground!" is still pretty good. Spear attacks, granted, aren't anything special, nothing that screams run me, but plenty of them are useful.

But yeah, Paragons have always suffered from having lots and lots of completely useless chaff. It was kinda an afterthought when the profession has more overpowered skills to power out, but now that those are just playable (or worse) it's pretty obvious that those good skills were the only ones the profession ever had. There never was much choice in what to run, if you wanted to be successful at all.

Peace,
-CxE

CDittric77 · Feb 12, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

The paragon is a challenge to play, much like a ritualist, or assassin, and frankly I think people WANT their paragon to be what it isn't designed to be: a frontline player.

The whole concept behind the paragon was back line leadership/buffs and mid ranged attack. It still does this well as that numbers previously posted show. If you don't like playing a character with those traits, play something else and enough with the whining! If you don't want to tank, you don't play a warrior, do you? Same concept applies.

Jeremy Untouchable · Feb 12, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

i just hate the armors of the new class's....man skirts for the loss...I stopped playing my Para when my wife said he looked like a boyband reject (tongue in cheek) the nerfs just ment i play a new mesmer now instead of para/derv

mqstout · Feb 12, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikpt

Paragons useless? No way...

Read the OP: This is regarding PvE. PvP is of no concern.

Age · Feb 12, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDittric77

The paragon is a challenge to play, much like a ritualist, or assassin, and frankly I think people WANT their paragon to be what it isn't designed to be: a frontline player.

The whole concept behind the paragon was back line leadership/buffs and mid ranged attack. It still does this well as that numbers previously posted show. If you don't like playing a character with those traits, play something else and enough with the whining! If you don't want to tank, you don't play a warrior, do you? Same concept applies.

You want a challengeing profession try playing Monk or Mesmer and yes a Rit as well.I would say that Assassin or a Paragon is challenge.What about Paragons in thier short Pants someone said my Alliance they have pretty pants.Don't forget about the Warrior wear and that includes males if you get Tyrian gladiator armour or the pre armour in KC.

Sir Skullcrasher · Feb 12, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

For some reason when Nightfalls first released, I knew that one of the class would become the next Sin in the Guild Wars series. In fact, I talked to many friends and guildies online before the game is released and most of them agreed that Paragon would be nerf and become useless. Good think I made a Dervish.

HawkofStorms · Feb 13, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

Read the OP: This is regarding PvE. PvP is of no concern.

Actually, his entire post is meaningless anyway since that all paragon team lost in HoH.
According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight.

The Ernada · Feb 13, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Actually, his entire post is meaningless anyway since that all paragon team lost in HoH.
According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight.

I once beat an all monk team in HoH. OMG MONKS R TEH SUXXORS!!@!!!