Curse

floppinghog · Feb 23, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

rewards used to be worse, but they still could be better for quests and all.

RoT was easy enough though, sure many factors for experienced players or not. the first time you went there no doubt you wiped out on a mob not realizing they could dupe themselves. ok, ill give it that.

but aside from first experiences, you can take one group down fairly ez, its when their patrols fall into other ones and you fall into the trap of aggroing 2 groups after initially fighting one for 15 secs.

Its true they are high level, not too great, they at least dont have insane armor, as well as the demons take more from lightbringer (note that yes, it is a bitch to get a good title rank for it, thats a different issue).

i think it would have worked out if you had many demons but lower level than they are now, more numbers less strength. and lightbringer attacks were area attacks to bake them into pies....hmmm demon pie..

oh and i think the editor is a clown, almost 2 years gives him the ability to completely rip the game hes been playing happily apart for an article? no shame?

sindex · Feb 23, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

I can honestly tell you guys, that in some way his complaints have merit. I think I skipped over a bunch of the RoT quests because of the way the world was designed. However allow me if you will tell you I absolutely love RoT and DoA (which I have yet to finish). The reason being most people are ticked off was what happened in conjunction to the updates, was because of what follows:

Updated AI + Skill Balances + ToA and DoA difficulty level = people ticked off either of one or all three.

Trust me I have absolutely no problem with this stuff; you’re talking about a guy who actually loves hardcore games like Ninja Gaiden (Xbox). However all these changes were do the press and the people who constantly nagged about GW not being tough enough (well there you go). So honestly this guy’s opinion does not win me over. The only problem is that he might bring some bad press to the GW series in the future. In which there is not a good amount of positive press about GW in the first place, except for some of their honors.

Orinn · Feb 23, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

RoT isn't truly bad, but I have to agree about the rewards not being anything special. This is one of the hardest non-elite areas in the game, and the rewards are the same as the Kourna and Desolation quests.

Personally, environmental effects annoy me. They annoyed me in Arborstone, they annoyed me in RoT, and they REALLY annoyed me in DoA. It is, like another poster said, an arbitrary way to shut down certain builds. Instead of making the mobs smarter or more challenging, they made the game itself oppose the player, and punish them for playing their character the way they prefer.

Stupidly overpowered monsters aren't fun, they're frustrating. Dying over and over because they trained to the rez shrine and you can NOT shake them, isn't fun. 60% DP within the first few minutes of any new area, isn't fun. And team wipes if you ever dare aggro more than a single group (with patrols all around) aren't fun. Fun comes from a sense of overcoming enemies, not getting rolled because every monster for 200 miles somehow knows you're there and uses obscenely overpowered skills to slow you, nuke you, and then camp the rez shrines until you can finally run away, kill them one at a time for however long it takes, or just get annoyed enough to shut the game off and walk away.

I've found myself more and more often simply shutting GW down lately. not because I dislike the game, but I have some very angry and particularly violent thoughts about developers who don't seem to understand that players want a challenge, but not an arbitrary level of frustration.

zwei2stein · Feb 23, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

as i always say:

Challenge != Overkill Dificulty
Challenge != Enviromental Effects
Theese only frustrates and anoys players (and experience/skill has nothing to do with it - see Ensigns post, he summed it well).

Dificulty with uninspired rewards leads to frustration - since frustrated gaming magazine editor cannot be really told to STFU, L2P by few self proclaimed l33t or fanbois, anet got problem. luckily, they have enough time to make it right on next chapter - reserve RoT dificulty for non-storyline areas like SF, push ~RoF dificulty to storyline stuff, give hard mode to "too easy" people.

erfweiss · Feb 23, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

It's really not that bad. It's an area that requires you to think. Heaven forbid you use your noodle.

I have 8 characters that have finished the Nightfall, of which every one of them heroed/henched from the Gate of Torment to the Gate of Madness (including the Gate of Pain mission). Sure, I'm not saying I haven't died. Several times, I made it to the Gate of Madness at 60% dp. You just have to muck your way thru it. Learn to bring a squad that can: a) quick kill and b) interrupt. Self-healing is a good idea, as is loading heros with a res.

Another thing: learn to target certain monsters. You can take them out before they multiply.

Thallandor · Feb 23, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

Wait, why are you still here if you stopped playing GW? Not attacking you, just curious.

because unfortunately, there are still those i have played together with for the past 2 years who are still playing this game.

Though i dont necessary play this game as much as i have in the past, its developments for better or worse still hold some concerns for me nevertheless.

Cacheelma · Feb 23, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I stop reading when he says that Magic: The Gathering is a waste of time.

sibila · Feb 23, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

hi

the realm of torment is certainly not a hard area to complete.

three of the maps are very easy, why? ... because anet gave you an extra six henchmen, this means your total fighting force is 14 in these areas.

if you cannot complete a map with 1+3heroes+10henchmen then you need to have a good look at your gaming style.

i have completed this area with 5 charactors now, masters on every mission.

i learned the hard way ... Don't Pug .. after bad experience's with pugs i taught myself how to do these missions with heroes and henchmen.

what you will find after doing these missions, you will laugh at yourself for thinking they were hard ... for if anything they are to easy.

RTSFirebat · Feb 23, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Here my take on this.

I've never read Games For Windows...

I have no idea who this guy is...

I don' care why he quit or what he thinks of Guild Wars....

Anyone who quits Guild Wars just because he did, is sad...

Shadis · Feb 23, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Wow, that guy is a paid game reviewer? He's very whiny. Sounds like he got rocked a few times and angrily pounded out his frustrations on the keyboard for that blog entry.

I agree with one of his points though, the REWARD SYSTEM IS HORRIBLE for late game areas. A.net seriously needs to take a look at this nonsense.

Ian Savage · Feb 23, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

There are more than enough sides to this arguement to know that if you go into it looking to be "right", you will get flamed to hell and back.
That being said, I would like to give my view. The person who wrote this was more than a little frustrated at the time, and as such, has gone over the top a bit. i have heroed my way through all of nightfall with my monk, save Gate of Madness mission and Abbadons Gate. i have also completed nightfall using a paragon with non-max armor. it isn't quite that hard. HOWEVER, it is far too hard for the rewards given. Prophecies made me quest because i needed the skills and was too cheap to buy them. Nightfall took that out. You can go through almost the entire game on primary quests and come out none the worse for the wear. I have. and honestly, i dont care. all the optional quests served to do for me was annoy. theres no real point in completing them.
The main point here, that most people seem to be missing, is that GW is a much more PvP oriented game. from GvG to HA, Hero Battles, AB, TA, RA, theres more than enough PvP options available. and thats what the game boils down to, is PvP. I also play WoW, when i have the time, and i have to say that these two games are as close to polar opposites as can be. GW is about the PvP, PvE is just a way to obtain the skills and knowledge to step up and move into PvP. If you want a geniusly rewarding PvE experience, you're in the wrong place. pack your bags and leave, or stay and tough it out. the choice is yours.

RTSFirebat · Feb 23, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Look I'm not going to start a PvE vrs PvP argument again.

PvE and PvP are two different games completely. PvE is not a step up to PvP. The fact PvE and PvP uses the same skills is the way the game is.

You can't learn much about real PvPing from just paying pure PvE.

Guild Wars is not CO-OP RPG... its not called a PvE or a PvP game. End of arguement.

Yes there is GvG to HA, Hero Battles, AB, TA, RA. But there is 3 maasive game worlds to travel and explore. If Guild Wars was a PvP oriented game, why would they bother putting so much time and effort into PvE.

The only thing that is true in this whole thread, is this editor got his butt handed to him like many a PuG and raged quit.

But I do agree that the reward in the Domain of Anguish are too small and should be made 3 or 4 times bigger. Also all quests down there should be marked as Master quests.

Ian Savage · Feb 23, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Yes there is GvG to HA, Hero Battles, AB, TA, RA. But there is 3 maasive game worlds to travel and explore. If Guild Wars was a PvP oriented game, why would they bother putting so much time and effort into PvE.

The problem I see here is the idea that they are putting "So much time and effort into PvE". If they are, and i'm not just taking a shot at Anet, i'm not feeling it. PvE is limited, it is bugged, it seems far too confined. it's highly repetitive, and since it is based on AI, is beatable. AI is Indeed artificial. so when i grab my monk for PvE, and i move to aggro a group in the RoT, i know that i'm going to need to pull to X location to avoid aggro, i know what classes are going to be priority targets, unlike the enemy, and as such, i can neutralize an opposing "Party" before it becomes a threat. The way you wipe is when the opposing force's damage crosses a threshold, due to aditional spawns or aggro.
If i party with all hench and hero, when a mistake comes, it will be my mistake, but if i dont make that mistake, i wont wipe.

Bottom line, PvE is not only not a gigantic challence, it doesnt seem complete. It leaves something missing, something unfinished.

RTSFirebat · Feb 23, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I agree with that, PvE is not a Challenge. A.net tired to make it more of a Challenge by making the DoA insanely hard, but that is not fun, its just kind of annoying.

But...

PvP is also repetitive, since its the same old metagame spike builds over and over again. But then again all games are repetitive in their own way correct?

freekedoutfish · Feb 23, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Well I havent looked at the link yet, but if he is saying that ROT is crap because it throws wave after wave at you, I agree.

Anets trend at making GWs harder is to simple make creatures interupt, res, multiple, increase mob numbers and number of creatures in an area.

They dont improve AI or the gameplay. They just throw more stuff at you and make it harder to kill.

[edit]

...I just read the link and Utterly agree with him.

Pandora's box · Feb 23, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I found getting access to DOA after completing Nightfall a big disappointment. Why? Simply because I did most of the missions in Nf with my hero/hench team and that's not possible in DOA. So I hear you ask: why not join up with a human team? or: Don't you like challenges? The answer: I would like to explore the region without being pushed onward, in my own time, just for fun. And I'm not going to spend many hours of aggroing in a human team.

I don't think it has anything to do with hard or not, exept perhaps, that it's not possible to play there with only 3 heroes. There's nothing we did not see before, its only more and stronger monsters, and more area effects. Its the lenght of the mission, the fact that you can't just quit when you want to, the fact that it's a mission so when all die its over, and the lack of reward that give me the feeling: let it be. I'm afraid finding a proper reward for those who complete the game will always be an issue though...

Edit: Ahm, mixed up RoT and DOA again

About RoT: I just find it depressive... No problems to play there, but no fun place either.

Mr_T_bot · Feb 23, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

So I hear you ask: why not join up with a human team? or: Don't you like challenges?

Because you refer to a human team as "guild members" which you then assume everyone has access to. Henches and heroes, with all their flaws, are 10x better than the wammos and stuck up Dervishes and Monks.

Blackhearted · Feb 23, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Heh. What's funny to me is he's played for two years and has a constant 60 DP in the RoT, according to his words. Yet... i haven't even played a year yet i rarely get half of that dp amount in the 2 characters i've bothered to take that far. He sure isn't very good at this game for someone of his time played. Especially considering how PvE typically isn't too, too hard outside of elite missions and PUGs.

beanerman_99 · Feb 23, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The gems were only worth it because they had a high gold value. Just make the quartermasters give out interesting items - a few unique weapons, minipets, anything other than the junk you already buy from the merchant.

Bingo! You said exactly what I was thinking. I did the RoT missions but I did NOT go back and do ANY of the side quests. Why? Because the rewards are not worth my time and effort. I see absolutely no reason to do these side quests...ever.

Now, if I could trade in those purple Ancient Whatsogiggers for something worthwhile, then i might go do them. Am I the only person who does not understand the purpose of all these reward tokens? Each area gives you a different token and you have to accumulate enough of them in order to trade them for the exact same stuff as the area you just left. You trade in Battle Commedations for Sup. ID pack, Sup Salvage Kits and bascially thats about all thats worth it. You go to a new area and get a new token and .....same crap to trade for.

The biggest exception would be the trade contracts which can be traded in ofr a Ruby, Sapphire, or Diamond(which has no use yet O_O). But even then, You alone will NEVER get enough contracts to trade for enough gems for even 1 piece of Jewelers Armor! You have to buy them from others.

So I say make the damn rewards better as you progress throught the game, cause as it is now, I have NO reason to complete any of the side quests. And if thats the case, why even bother having side quests? Oh, maybe it gives us PvE'ers "something to do" *rolls eyes*

freekedoutfish · Feb 23, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhearted

Heh. What's funny to me is he's played for two years and has a constant 60 DP in the RoT, according to his words. Yet... i haven't even played a year yet i rarely get half of that dp amount in the 2 characters i've bothered to take that far. He sure isn't very good at this game for someone of his time played. Especially considering how PvE typically isn't too, too hard outside of elite missions and PUGs.

I've played for nearly 2 years and rarely been down to 60dp myself in any other section of all 3 campaigns. But in ROT it happens very easily.

Not because the creatures are stupidly hard. If those creatures were further and fewer between and you could pick them off intelligently, then it would be fine and enjoyable.

But in ROT you cant move 2 feet without seeing around 6 mobs filling the entire area and each mob full of around 6 creatures. As I said those individual mobs arent the issue. Its how tightly packed ROT is with them.

You spend most of your time creeping around, waiting till mob1 is out of mob2's area, and try to pounce on them before mob1 gets into mob3s agro area.

Anet packed ROT too full of mobs, its that simple. And it isnt fun, it isnt enjoyable. Its frustrating and its pampering for the hardcore gamers who want everything to be very very very tough.

It alienates the rest of us.

Its fine to have elite areas like that, which are seperate from the storyline and you dont have to move through to complete the game. To choose to play hardcore elite areas if fine.

But when they make storyline areas into elite-esc zones, where you have to fight at a completely different level and endure high DP and ressing it removes the gameplay aspect and replaces it with frustration.

I came close to giving up on nightfall myself when I reached ROT. I was hardly a noob at that point, but I wasnt expecting what I found in ROT. Simple because its a complete change from prophercies, factions and even the first 3/4 of NF.

Its is a shock to the system when you havent been into an elite-esc area before. And it doesnt apeal to alot of players, including me. I prefere casual playing with a challenge. But ROT is more FW, UW and DOAesc.

Plus the huge fact that the rewards for completing the ROT quests are simply not worth it. Even the Master quests in the mapped areas of NF arent worth it.

You get more XP from doing easier quests in both Factions and Prophercies.

Its like a swift kick in the teath after spending an hour doing a "go here and speak to him quests" which took killing around 100 creatures and loosing half your DP, just to get there and only be given about 500xp-1000xp for doing it.

If the reward was worth it, XP and gold wise, then I could understand the mobs numbers and the over-powerment. But their not.