Curse

Prometheus8703 · Feb 28, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I've been curious to find out if any other guilds out there have a guild bank setup. In my guild, New found Destiny, I am the officer in charge of a bank (my storage account as it were) that provides loan services to members of the guild. I was curious to see if anyone else had implemented a similar idea in the guild. This is my fourth iteration of a guild bank (I think I've finally worked out the kinks), and it seems to be helpful to many of the players in my guild. So GWGuru, what are your thoughts on this? I can make details of how our guild's banking system works if anyone is interested.

Neo Nugget · Mar 01, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

I was once in a guild that did that for materials. I dont really see that anymore but i guess ya gotta trust the person alot to trust with money.

Shakti · Mar 01, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Uummmm I just give my guildies gold/mats weapons etc whenever they need or want really. My guild is very generous with each other and no one ever expects to be repaid lol. We do have a "communal" account we use to store overflow materials etc that are up for grabs, is that what you mean?

Coridan · Mar 01, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

yeah I would be interested to know how long someone has to be in your guild inorder to recieve a loan...surely you dont allow them cash or loot upon joining. Also do you have them put up some type of collateral...and how do u keep track of it...in a notepad outside of the game i would guess...also do u charge interest or just take donations from players to keep a cash flow...while you idea seems to be a good one...how exactly is it implemented...would be nice if there was some sort of "tythe" (spelling) system in GW where guild members automatically give 3-5% of any gold drops they pick up into a guild bank...

Prometheus8703 · Mar 01, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

This is the proposal I wrote up for our guild leader when I first proposed this idea. It goes into detail of how our bank operates.

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The New Found Destiny Credit Union

Goal: Provide member of New Found Destiny a place where they can donate funds and in times of need, take out loans.

Entrance Procedures: In order for a member of the guild to become a member of NFDCU, they must have been active in the guild for a period no less than one week. After this time, they may pay an account activation fee of 1000 gold to become an introductory member.

Summary of Services:

1. Deposits: Members of NFDCU can make deposits of any amount in 1000 gold increments. All deposits will be recorded and will be taken into consideration when a member applies for a loan. These deposits will allow the bank to loan out money to its members but the bank will not function in the role of a savings account. Any funds granted to a member will be in the form of a loan.

2. Loans: After activating their account, members will be eligible to petition for a loan. The members past history with the bank, including amounts deposited, previous loan history, whether previous loans were paid back within the specified time, etc., will be considered as well as the amount being requested and the current balance of the bank’s vault. Upon the granting of a loan, the recipient will have a specific time in which to repay the loan to the bank else they suffer an increase in their interest rate. The time frame in which a member has to repay a loan will be determined during the petition process. Loans paid back ahead of schedule will cause the bank to look more favorably upon the member in the future when they request a loan. All loans must be paid back at one time, and a person cannot take more than one loan out at time. Any exceptions to these rules will have to be discussed with your local NFDCU representative as they are very inflexible.

3. Psychological Help: Your NFDCU representative will be available from time to time to listen to you rant about whatever. Feel free to contact him or her at any time.

Member Levels:

1. Introductory Member – A person just joining the bank will be classified as an introductory member. Introductory members have access to all services NFDCU provides. However, they will be restricted to a maximum loan size of 10000 gold. Also, all loans taken out by an introductory member will be subject to a 15% interest rate of the total loan amount. For example, an introductory member taking out 5000 gold will be required to pay back 5750 gold to the bank. Interest made off of loans will allow the bank to loan out more money to more people in the future.

2. Valued Member – In order for a member to reach valued member status, they must have been active with the bank for a minimum period of two weeks and completed five loan transactions and made at least one deposit. Valued members’ maximum loan size is increased to 25000 gold and their loan interest rate is decreased to 10%

3. Premium Member – A member who has completed fifteen loan transactions and made at least five deposits will be recognized as a premium member. Premium members do not have a maximum loan size and their interest rate is reduced to 5%. Premium members will also receive the gift of one free cookie for their continued business with the bank.

Late Fees: A member who is late in repaying their loan to the bank will suffer a 2% increase to their current interest rate on their loan for everyday it is late. This increase will be capped off at 20%. For example, if an introductory member took out a loan of 1000 gold, they would normally be required to pay back 1150 gold to the bank. However, if they are 5 days late in repaying their loan, they will be required to pay back 1250 gold.

Shakti · Mar 01, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Yeah ... I misunderstood I think. I read the original post as a bank system to loan to guild just to be helpful. While it may be helpful to your guildies, it is also very expensive to them and thereby quite profitable to you. Those interest rates are extremely high, and the "deposits" are not deposits since they are, as you said, "not a savings account". While you may spend some of your time on the bookkeeping end, you are being very well paid lol.

Don Zardeone · Mar 01, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Not needed for GW imo.
- The only things needed are gold + some materials
- - Gold is something you get yourself. if you can't get it and need a loan, then you probably won't be able to pay off the debt
- - materials are either too common to store or too expensive

But this is all opinion

FoxBat · Mar 01, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

So.... why would anyone deposit into your bank with no savings? Where's all the interest going, to the officers?

Prometheus8703 · Mar 01, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

The interest rate doesn't go to me. It goes to the bank to help fund future loans. I think that's in there somewhere.

The Herbalizer · Mar 01, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus8703

I've been curious to find out if any other guilds out there have a guild bank setup. In my guild, New found Destiny, I am the officer in charge of a bank (my storage account as it were) that provides loan services to members of the guild. I was curious to see if anyone else had implemented a similar idea in the guild. This is my fourth iteration of a guild bank (I think I've finally worked out the kinks), and it seems to be helpful to many of the players in my guild. So GWGuru, what are your thoughts on this? I can make details of how our guild's banking system works if anyone is interested.

It will all end in tears.

Children play the game and I find it highly unethical to introduce them to interest and the contract they have entered into. Imagine a parent finds out their child is falling behind in school to farm for gold to pay back a loan he/she took out otherwise they will face repercussions.

I am sure Anet thrown upon the whole "interest rate" thing.

Someone offered a similar service on Guru and it got closed down due to the whole "interest rate" issue.

Im pretty disgusted by the whole thing considering alot of under 18s play.

HardWonFame · Mar 01, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

o.O

I think some people may be misunderstanding what this bank does. This bank profits no one in the guild, it is offered as a free service, no one is charged anything. The bank is completely funded by donations, not deposits. Older, more wealthy members of the guild give money to this particular officer in order to give the newer players the ability to have a quick source of cash if they need it.

Loan returns are never shorter then a week, and the only reason it has an interest applied is to keep funds in the bank so that future loans to more players can be available.

This game is addicting enough as it is to the point that blaming a benign interest rate on fake currency in a fake world for consuming time and corrupting ideals is just ridiculous.

Here is the just of it: It is a collective pool of guild funds managed by one trustworthy officer in order to help out new players, it has a manageable system in place to give it presence and an ability to sustain itself. Keep your sheltered opinions to yourself unless you have something worthwhile to offer.

Tvan · Mar 01, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

It will all end in tears.

Children play the game and I find it highly unethical to introduce them to interest and the contract they have entered into. Imagine a parent finds out their child is falling behind in school to farm for gold to pay back a loan he/she took out otherwise they will face repercussions.

I am sure Anet thrown upon the whole "interest rate" thing.

Someone offered a similar service on Guru and it got closed down due to the whole "interest rate" issue.

Im pretty disgusted by the whole thing considering alot of under 18s play.

I'm not sure you understand what is going on here. Our guild is composed of serious players, the youngest of which is 14 years of age. We have our own forums set up and communicate frequently on teamspeak. We know each other pretty well, and when it came to the question of forming a bank for everyone's benefit, no one was in opposition.

If you think that we are in the business of extorting in game money from members of our guild, you are entirely off-base and wrong in your assumption that we are out to harm people. In fact, the bank has been receiving about as many donations for loan use as it has been giving loans out.

All of the records have been kept meticulously and in any event that the bank closes, all money will be returned to those members that donated and took loans that generated interest.

The Herbalizer · Mar 01, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardWonFame

o.O

I think some people may be misunderstanding what this bank does. This bank profits no one in the guild, it is offered as a free service, no one is charged anything. The bank is completely funded by donations, not deposits. Older, more wealthy members of the guild give money to this particular officer in order to give the newer players the ability to have a quick source of cash if they need it.

Loan returns are never shorter then a week, and the only reason it has an interest applied is to keep funds in the bank so that future loans to more players can be available.

This game is addicting enough as it is to the point that blaming a benign interest rate on fake currency in a fake world for consuming time and corrupting ideals is just ridiculous.

Here is the just of it: It is a collective pool of guild funds managed by one trustworthy officer in order to help out new players, it has a manageable system in place to give it presence and an ability to sustain itself. Keep your sheltered opinions to yourself unless you have something worthwhile to offer.

K, here are some quote from GWG staff: -

The one person offering the thread even admits there's a good chance he'll get scammed. If people loan out money then that's their problem. But would this person be considered a "loan shark"? Since loan sharking is illegal(in the US at least I think), we may want to look into how this would reflect on our forums. Fact is, I have no problem with it, but would it be considered an "illegal" act to loan out money and ask for an absurd amount of intrest? Obviously in game this is just the seller giving gold to the buyer, and the buyer doing the same at a later date, so neither is breaking the EULA(I think). But if the US goverment considers this type of thing illegal, then shouldn't we too?

I am thinking about it right now. Here are some thoughts that I have on the matter, I will probably keep editing a bit.

Usury - Legal concept referring to interest in excess of a legal maximum rate charged to a borrower for using financial resources. In the US, maximum annual interest rates vary by state but typically range from 10-20%.

Charging 15% per week is clearly excessive. Without compounding interest, 15% per week amount to 780% per year. In other words, based on that interest, 100 gold loaned would require a repayment of 100 gold + 780 gold interest in a year.

Such offers are unsuitable for minors and consequently the site.

If we are willing to allow such service offers, we should require maximum interest rates per time period and maximum total interest rates (e.g. even if you cannot pay back for any time period, the total interest on the loan must not exceed 20% --> if you loan 100 gold, you will never pay more than 120 gold to pay off the loan, even if your repayment occurs after the agreed upon time).

It cannot be that we allow children to become financially enslaved for eternity.

Please not red highlight on maximum % interest rates allowed under us law.

No I wont keep my opinions to myself. And no they are not sheltered. I am still 100% against any form of loaning service in a game where unders 18s play.

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I understand that you may mean well but I really dont think it is a good idea. I have seen such ideas in the past fail drastically where people thought they could trust others.

If the bank persons account got hacked and he lost all your gold what would happen? would you believe it happened?

what if someone genuinely couldnt pay back a large loan due to say his parents banning him from playing gw?

Shakti · Mar 01, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

**Reads Herbalizer's above post ^^ and applauds

Usury anyone?

And while I read what HardWonFame said regarding these being donations, the op did call them "deposits" so you can't really blame us for misunderstanding. The question I have is this:

If this is about wealthy guildies helping newer guildies...why can't they just give it to them?

You call it "fake currency in a fake world", so why not use it to help your friends? I am in the wealthier portion of gw, and freely give gold etc to my guildies because after all what the hell else am I gonna do with it?

Griff Mon · Mar 01, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

It will all end in tears.

Children play the game and I find it highly unethical to introduce them to interest and the contract they have entered into. Imagine a parent finds out their child is falling behind in school to farm for gold to pay back a loan he/she took out otherwise they will face repercussions.

I am sure Anet thrown upon the whole "interest rate" thing.

Someone offered a similar service on Guru and it got closed down due to the whole "interest rate" issue.

Im pretty disgusted by the whole thing considering alot of under 18s play.

Well then, what is the whole faction farming thing incorporated into many guilds. Doesn't the game itself charge a form of "reverse interest" by taking away 10% of your faction everyday? Aren't a number of guilds requiring members to faction farm and contribute? Do you think possibly some people might be pressured to faction farm to the point of being threatened with being kicked out of the guild? Skipping out on doing real world activities so they can get back into good graces with their guild?

The whole concept is already in there, if you think about it. It's just backwards.

Prometheus8703 · Mar 01, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakti

**Reads Herbalizer's above post ^^ and applauds

Usury anyone?

And while I read what HardWonFame said regarding these being donations, the op did call them "deposits" so you can't really blame us for misunderstanding. The question I have is this:

If this is about wealthy guildies helping newer guildies...why can't they just give it to them?

To answer your question, the reason for the bank was to make it easier for the wealthy guildies to do just that. The fact that it sounds official was mostly for the amusement of our guild leader. All of this misunderstanding is very disconcerting for myself. I am willing to address any further questions or concerns that maybe out there. More from me later though.

You just got tomahawked · Mar 01, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

utterly and wholsomely pwnd

Lykan · Mar 01, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Join guild> take 10K loan > leave guild.

I dont know why people leave themselves open to such blatant opportunities to be ripped off. Guild banks are stupid, no one is guarenteed 100% trustworthy when you have no way of tracing them.
Exactly how do you plan to enforce the loan and interest repayment? Kick from the guild if they dont repay? Oh noes! Guildless but 10k better off.

Imo this is why GW doesnt have guild storage, I know Gaile mentioned it like once (maybe she was drunk) and then hasn't said a word since. Why do you think that is?

p.s Can i join your guild?

Prometheus8703 · Mar 01, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

You forgot the wait one week part before you can take out a loan or even join the bank for that matter. Plus you have to pay 1k to become a member. So you would only get 9k. We try not to make it too easy to rip the bank off.

Truth is, if someone can't or won't pay repay their loan, they don't have to.

The Herbalizer · Mar 01, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Another downfall i thought of was the issue of kicking people, if a player acts like a jerk or commits kick worthy offences but has taken out a large loan what do you do?

allow him to stay in guild to get gold back? or kick him and lose gold you lent him?