Curse

Calen The Civl · Mar 15, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I would like to see more intelligent pve critters and team builds in addition to a party class cap before separating pve and pvp skill sets completely.

A class cap on the party would help prevent skill exploitation in pvp. Most balances are from stacking a single class into a team, such as with SF teams. Limiting the amount of a single primary class to say 3 would help curb these exploitations. Now this could hurt pve team builds a little as well such as the famous b/p build. However, while these builds are incredibly stale as it is, they can still be done but just substituting assassin/rangers or ritualist/rangers to name a few viable class choices.

Limiting the amount of each primary class in a team would also allow classes that are not widely accepted to be added to the team. It is sad that in pve so few players think outside the templates widely accepted.

If exploitation of skills continues in a severe pace, then pve only and pvp only skills would be the only choice for lasting balance.

Croix_Raul · Mar 15, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

I would highly prefer changes to current skills to make them useful in pve over any new pve only skill which will just be overpowered.

Too Bad it will only result in unbalancing the skill set in PvP don't think this is a solution to anything

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Yes, too bad. :-(

Sprites · Mar 15, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

we'll see what hapens when it'll be released

50 Lb signets would be imba

unless they made uber mobs

Croix_Raul · Mar 15, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprites

we'll see what hapens when it'll be released

50 Lb signets would be imba

unless they made uber mobs

Well there already uber mob in DoA and LBG is worth crap there

zwei2stein · Mar 15, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

as PvE player, i dont really dig idea of PvE skills because they so far had three effects:

a) being way too limited to one area/situation get any love or just being kinda pointless - celestial X, sunspear rebirth sig, lightbringer signet.
b) required grind of a kind - lightbringer stuff
c) removed all challenge - jududundu stuff

only good pve only skill is cap sig, imho.

fripple · Mar 15, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I don't get the objection to 'overpowered' skills in pve. First, who does this hurt? Second, and more important, this is the only way we're going to get out of the cesspool of cookie-cutter builds short of a complete overhaul of monster AI and all mob skillsets, which I think is fairly unlikely to happen.

What causes cookie-cutter builds in pve? Mob difficulty. Prophecies didn't really have this issue unless you got into a couple areas or situations. The first is obviously farming/running, which requires specific builds due to the difficulty of soloing multiple mobs of equal of higher level than yourself; if you don't run specific combinations of skills against specific mobs, you will die, period, and no amount of 'skill' will save you.

The only other places it really came up were in the end-game areas like the god realms, tombs, and SF. Note, though, that none of these places was so difficult that you couldn't do them with a wide variety of builds; the cookie-cutter stuff was there to speed things along, not to make them doable for people who couldn't otherwise participate.

Later games threw more difficult pve content at us, I think everyone can agree, and look, more reliance on cookie-cutters appeared. The new end-game areas, in particular, are virtually impossible without bringing specific builds (and/or specific strategies built around gimmicky skill functions or AI/design exploits) along because the mobs encountered are so powerful or gimmicky that they will kill you, period, unless you bring specific counters from a very small pool of options. While it is certainly possible to play any area of GW without relying on pre-planned, well-known builds, for many people not in intelligent, active guilds, this is the simplest (and sometimes only) way to participate in the newer end-game content.

If you give people more skills that can compete in some form with the few skills that will already get the job done in these areas, which necessarily means they are at least as overpowered as the ones people are currently using, then it helps increase build diversity. How is that bad?

Tempy · Mar 15, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

ROFLMAO...what do PvP'ers care about anyway, everyone uses the same builds in 99% of all battles.

I comes down to if there are PvE only skills, or more, it won't matter because you don't miss what you never had. And even PvE charas that PvP wouldn't be able to use them in PvP anyway...so why does it matter if there are PvE only skills.

It doesn't mess with anyone's PvP. Or is this gonna be another one of those, "well that's not how it has been so don't change it" things?

Gli · Mar 15, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

What's all this nonsense about PvE skills removing challenge? There's no challenge to begin with in PvE unless you go looking for it. A full party of mediocre players can already breeze through practically every mission/explorable in every chapter. And that's by design, because to be succesful a game needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator, the casual player. PvE only skills aren't going to change a thing. They won't detract from the game, only add to it.

Challenge only comes into play when you start doing things in a less efficient fashion than you could, finding builds so tomorrow you can do with 2 people what you need 3 people for today, devising solo builds. The only real challenges are the ones you set yourself. If the PvE skills make certain challenges easier, raise the bar for yourself.

Dracil · Mar 15, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

PVE-only skills like the lightbringer stuff is basically ANet's answer to the level cap. It's a loophole to add more leveling to the game without having to call it that.

There's been a slow but steady power creep in Guild Wars with each chapter. Better minimum stats on drops, add an extra +10 health or +2 En here and there with the new runes. Customizable heroes with stat boostable armors.

And of course, better skill synergy between the three chapters (unless I'm mistaken, monsters can only use skills from their chapter so they'll never have as good of a skillset as we do, barring monster skills and environmental effects and cheat bonuses [extra levels, boss bonuses])

Basically, since good AI is hard, ANet took the easy route by letting monsters cheat. But as the cheating becomes more common for regular monsters, to compensate, they also let players cheat against them with PVE-only skills.

I predict in a few more chapters, we'll have lvl 36 monsters, but we'll also get special titles and skills that'll give us +200 health boost and +50% damage and half hex and condition times against them. There'll also probably be mixed mobs, so you'll have to manage your title switches (to add even more "skill" to the game) depending on the mobs you're facing.

lacasner · Mar 15, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracil

PVE-only skills like the lightbringer stuff is basically ANet's answer to the level cap. It's a loophole to add more leveling to the game without having to call it that.

There's been a slow but steady power creep in Guild Wars with each chapter. Better minimum stats on drops, add an extra +10 health or +2 En here and there with the new runes. Customizable heroes with stat boostable armors.

Your right, but it surprisingly hasn't added anything to the longevity of the game, which I think may have been one intention of Anet's. I, for one, think that most players would notice the longevity if the leveling was actually somewhat significant, not in the sense of combat leveling (because this would ruin pvp-pve balanced because the two are intertwined) but rather in non-combat skills, something I think Guild Wars could have and it would greatly improve the longevity of the game.

Warmaster Patton · Mar 15, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamal555

Hmmm... i really dont like where this is going...

U know where this came from... we got too many skill balances for pvp... so pve skill set got boring and inadequate...

Farming is out... many skill balancing came to make farming imposible so made pvp unbalanced...there is no fun in it anymore... 55 monks are out... great... for bots but some ppl got kick out of it... now they stopped playing... i have 7-8 friends that stopped playing 2 days after new agro system was introduced... SS makes aataxes scatter... good bye GW... many ppl quited after that...

My friends list got half empty after Factions came out... and unrunuble, unfarmable area was introduced... After Nightfall release it got 2/3 full again... and then 2 weeks after release... its now empty... EMPTY... 82 ppl on it... [dont get me wrong, im not some pve only scrub... i just enjoy it... from time to time, half of my friends list is rank 10-12] i dont play anymore... its boring... GW is boring now... u cant log in and have 15 min of fun and go somewhere... no.. u must play missions or pvp...

There is nothing else to do in the game... all farming thats left is green boss farming or pain in the a.. solo farming witch isnt fun... and u dont make money out of it any more... FUN factor from gw is gone... dont nerf the game nerf bots... if u really are worried bout bots etc... make good detection program or hire gamemasters...

4 things killed guild wars in my view...
1. too predictable pvp [skill points distribution too narrow, armor mechanics bad, weapon upgrades limited... not much variance... anywhere
2. Lazyness of ANET Team, its really easyer to nerf something than to make it challenging...
3. Lack of content... Sorrows area style maps... bigger map space... prophecies had exploring quality... factions and nightfall should have expanded it further... how hard can it be to think of unique content and make it... hmm.. ppl make maps and lvl for so many games... gw cant be any more difficult... maybe they need better developer tools... idk... and prophecies is unfinished... remmeber all those npcs with no thx of quests that just stare at u... Twin Serpent Lakes comes to mind... etc...
4. AUCTION HOUSES... promised, still havent seen them... if anet really wanted to level the playfield and keep prices in check and farmers etc... they should have put in auction houses and then when ppl see how many items are on sale and how many ppl are selling same stuff... economy would have been much better... And lot less frustrating...

my 2 cents...

Im not playing GW anymore as i said... hope next one will be better... [read: more fun] if not... goodbye gw and gw2... have better things to do in life...

thx for reading...

Auction houses were NEVER promised IIRC. You're just turning rumor in fact like so many people lately.

Factions and Nightfall are the same size as Prophecies, it just seems smaller because you get to level 20 faster.

lacasner · Mar 15, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamal555

Farming is out... many skill balancing came to make farming imposible so made pvp unbalanced...there is no fun in it anymore... 55 monks are out... great... for bots but some ppl got kick out of it... now they stopped playing... i have 7-8 friends that stopped playing 2 days after new agro system was introduced... SS makes aataxes scatter... good bye GW... many ppl quited after that...

Farming isn't out at all, just changed a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamal555

My friends list got half empty after Factions came out... and unrunuble, unfarmable area was introduced... After Nightfall release it got 2/3 full again... and then 2 weeks after release... its now empty... EMPTY... 82 ppl on it... [dont get me wrong, im not some pve only scrub... i just enjoy it... from time to time, half of my friends list is rank 10-12] i dont play anymore... its boring... GW is boring now... u cant log in and have 15 min of fun and go somewhere... no.. u must play missions or pvp...

Yea, actually being forced to do missions to advance in PvE was and is a big turn off for me, really limiting I think in the exploration aspect of PvE and a mmorpg-esque game in general. So I agree with you here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamal555

There is nothing else to do in the game... all farming thats left is green boss farming or pain in the a.. solo farming witch isnt fun... and u dont make money out of it any more... FUN factor from gw is gone... dont nerf the game nerf bots... if u really are worried bout bots etc... make good detection program or hire gamemasters...

I disagree here, money making is not the only important thing in an mmo.

Quote:

Lazyness of ANET Team, its really easyer to nerf something than to make it challenging...

Well they made DoA and a lot of hard places (RoT, etc.) but maybe you didn't get that far in the storyline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warmaster Patton

Factions and Nightfall are the same size as Prophecies, it just seems smaller because you get to level 20 faster.

No, I think it's because lack of explorability.

Wildi · Mar 16, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

I don't think future PvE-only skills will be unbalanced because anet always nerf everything to hell.

Kha · Mar 16, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

I don't get the objection to 'overpowered' skills in pve. First, who does this hurt? Second, and more important, this is the only way we're going to get out of the cesspool of cookie-cutter builds short of a complete overhaul of monster AI and all mob skillsets, which I think is fairly unlikely to happen.

So you want to add overpowered skills that will just be the basis of new cookie cutter builds, and even worse because people will feel that you NEED them to get things done, to get rid of the current cookie cutter builds? Your view of logic is lacking completely.

The only way we're ever going to get out of so called cesspool is by changing the very basics of the monster AI. No addition, nerfing or changing of any skills will do that. It just slows down the progress until a new solution is found and becomes the addiction of the community. Unless they find/implement a way for monsters to be smarter in an AI adaptable programming, and not just overpowered, PvE will always remain the same rinse and repeat cycle.

Will this happen? Most likely not. I agree with you there. So the only real solution then is to find ways to make new AI creatures and new settings for PvE to happen in. If they can't make individual AI adaptable, they'll just have to make AI from different areas unique with more interesting builds to counter and more strategical (and not just annoyingly debilitating) settings to fight in.

Ensign · Mar 16, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I expect PvE-only skills to be varieties of title-grind skills, or skills that are substantially overpowered for PvP. I don't think either of those choices would make the PvE in Guild Wars more enjoyable.

Put another way, Lightbringer's Gaze and Sunspear Rebirth Signet were colossal mistakes, and if title grind, strictly better skills are the way forward we should be thankful that they're going to stop with chapter 4.

Peace,
-CxE

Avarre · Mar 16, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

The value of PvE is in the experience. Many skills and builds got over nerfed simply because they don't work in a PvP environment. Skill such as EoE and Ritual Lord and half the communing Ritualist skills, not to mention the entire Motivation attribute for Paragons were simply killed because of bad PvP team build addictions.

These skills were equally imbalanced in PvE, the vast majority of PvE'ers are simply never on the other side of the impact of these skills to realize it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I expect PvE-only skills to be varieties of title-grind skills, or skills that are substantially overpowered for PvP. I don't think either of those choices would make the PvE in Guild Wars more enjoyable.

Pretty much my view as well. Having to create imbalanced skills for PvE is just proof that Anet failed to balance the PvE challenge. If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills? Time would be better spent simply tweaking PvE development to not require a completely new line of skills, because if restricted skills have to be added to keep things in check, that's not solving the problem - just covering it.

Ensign · Mar 16, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

These skills were equally imbalanced in PvE, the vast majority of PvE'ers are simply never on the other side of the impact of these skills to realize it.

They are affected by it, but only peripherally, never directly. As in, you're passed over for groups more often with the broken characters around, if you're not playing one of those characters.

That isn't enforced nearly as harshly as getting beaten by those skills in PvP, though - it only really becomes relevant in harsh, high traffic areas where there's a lot of choice involved in who and what to bring in a group. I.E., for the Domain of Anguish, you only see a small subset of builds and professions being run, with groups taking those exclusively and everyone else not even bothering to show up there anymore. While in a random, midgame mission outpost (something like Jennur's Horde, or a chapter 2 mission) you're going to have groups taking anyone they can get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills?

That's really the worry I have about this as well. They created thousands of skills for Guild Wars, and while the balance is nowhere near what it could have been, all aspects of the game share a common thread - you pick the eight skills that you want to use for your build and try it against some challenge or another. Unlike other games in the genre, there are limitless combinations of builds that you could make or try, and twiddling with all of the different combinations to deal with different obstacles is part of the fun.

Contrast that with a small subset of "PvE skills" that are much better than all of the others, by design. That flies entirely in the face of the core design of Guild Wars, of build diversity and experimentation. That makes it a game with increasingly predetermined skillbars. I was not happy about the Realm of Torment effectively reducing everyone from 8 skills to 7 skills plus Lightbringer's Gaze, I think that was a huge blow to the foundation of the game. If the decision is to abandon that foundation in favor of more skills like Lightbringer's Gaze, then Guild Wars will have truly lost it's biggest selling point on merit.

Peace,
-CxE

Seef II · Mar 16, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

I don't like the idea. Every time I'm past Kourna, I remove energy management, stop taking my rez sig, or do other unimagineable things to my skill bar just to bring LB Gaze - because it's that stupidly good. It saves you time, energy, and has a strong effect to boot.

Sunspear Rebirth Signet isn't as flagrant an offender. My main beef with it is that it's strictly better than rez sig (unless you're a frontliner rezzing your monk, but why should that happen in the first place in PvE?) - rather than an alternative, it is a replacement.

At least it didn't make its way into PvP.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 16, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

We don't even know what the PVE only skills are yet everyone!

They could be skills for new creatures you can control like the wurms.
Or they could be skills that use mechanics that would only benefit PVE, like a magical unlocking spell.

We will just have to wait and see.