Curse

Pakana · Mar 07, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

as off-topic as it was, Avarre did say: 'A Player who utterly and confidently thinks a mesmer is a legitimately strong class in PvE is incorrect.. Regardless of whether he used your quote was just making an example. In earlier posts, you'll find alot of people who made their argument that Mesmers are a strong class. I bet if you asked Avarre about his accuracy on the statement he made, I'm sure you'll get the answer you're not looking for.

When you quote, and under that write something, that is usually related to the quote, no? You may now assume that with "you" I mean Terra Xin. And you are right. Nor did Avarre deny he/she was talking to me. Why would anyone quote my reply to dgb, if he/she didn't have a point to make to either of us?? Beats me.

Zonzai · Mar 08, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Uh, give them good degeneration skills. Oh wait, too late.

Let's see, what will actually make them desirable...

Give them warrior armor. They look like they're all gay. No offense to homosexuals but you guys really are gay. I'm a gay homsexual myself, which I think makes me straight.

Mabye, just give them the warrior body type.

Straight guys, like me, prefer 300lb men in tights to candy-assed 90lb wussies in tights. Just don't ask why. (Yeah, I'm talking about football genius.)

Yeah, I think if mesmers didn't look like they just came back from the Rainbow-Parade-Mardi-Gras the might be a little more desirable. Unless that part can be fixed mesmers are pretty much a lost cause as a primary profession in PvE.

Most people don't play them in PvE partly because they look stupid and partly because they don't really know what to expect from them. And since most people don't play them, most people don't know how they work and just figure they aren't worth bothering with. And then those that do play them get screwed because nobody else knows what the heck to do with a mesmer. Of course, they are sweet for PvP.

My advice, make a quick cast healer. They aren't as good as a real monk but they're better than a healer henchman.

arcanemacabre · Mar 08, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I've had some time to think about my post, and I am still perplexed about "Fast Casting". Seriously, what does Fast Casting have to do with what the Mesmer is all about? I think the Mesmer was an incomplete and flawed class to begin with. What does artsy-fartsy magicians, and Lyssa, the twin goddess of beauty and illusion have to do with speedy spellcasting?

LightningHell · Mar 08, 2007, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit

That's my way of thinking

I always love Avarre's posts. It's like sitting down on a comfy couch with a good thing of popcorn and someone you care about, watching the best movie.

"The way she cleans the floor with these people is insane!" is a great way to describe Avarre and those foolish to challenge a skilled mesmer

Avarre's posts are nearly as good as Ensign's. I'll never have the patience to write something like that, unless it's an article (which I did write, but I probably won't write anymore).

Mesmers in PvE fill no straightforward role, and PvE is all straightforward, therefore Mesmers fill no role.

That's a simplified way to say it.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 08, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

It's the illusion of casting spells faster.
Sheesh arcane! You fell for it!
I have undergone extensive 'de-programming' to see when the spell is really cast.

arcanemacabre · Mar 08, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

It's the illusion of casting spells faster.
Sheesh arcane! You fell for it!
I have undergone extensive 'de-programming' to see when the spell is really cast.

/doh

Of course! It's all so clear to me now!

Although, I did consider the classic "sleight-of-hand" thing. Hand quicker than the eye, and all that. However, I think if that were the case, it should apply to all skills, not just spells, since it is more of a physical thing. Of course, if that was changed, there would be even more Mesmers that aren't Mesmers out there - especially spirit-spamming Mesmers. Ewww.

Dracil · Mar 08, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

The solution to make Mesmers more wanted in PVE is to NERF them. Yes, you heard that right. Saw some posts about moving Inspiration to Fast Cast. NO. What should be done is to make those Inspiration spells take an extra second to cast, this makes them less useful to anyone without fast cast (non Mesmer primaries).

Personally, I actually just hench/heroway through most games. The least desirable class for me are actually the Warriors. Back in the time before heroes, there was no good way to get them to tank, so unless I did it myself (but I generally play casters), it was simply easier to just nuke everything down while keeping everyone alive. The most dangerous enemies? Elementalists. I bring Mesmers solely for interrupt ability. Don't really care about your degens because there's a 10 degen cap. So then the question is human Mesmer or AI Mesmer. There are times that a human is better, but 1) PUGs in general suck because of humans, and 2) Is your interrupt reaction time as fast as the AI?

Another reason why I don't want Mesmers buffed. Mesmer mobs are annoying. I don't want to deal with them being even more annoying (a powerful and spammable mass hex? What, you want the monks mad at you or what?)

The only cool thing that I think Mesmers should maybe be able to get is the ability to control their target. i.e., an elite where for 5 seconds, your entire bar is replaced with theirs and clicking on the skill causes them to use it on your selected target. Seems like the kind of stuff that fits what a Mesmer would do.

LightningHell · Mar 08, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracil

The solution to make Mesmers more wanted in PVE is to NERF them. Yes, you heard that right. Saw some posts about moving Inspiration to Fast Cast. NO. What should be done is to make those Inspiration spells take an extra second to cast, this makes them less useful to anyone without fast cast (non Mesmer primaries).

Problem would be no one would use Inspiration spells anyway. Glyph of Lesser Energy gogogo.

Deleet · Mar 08, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

The problem is not with mesmers, the problem is with the mindset of the people.
The holy trinity still applies, tank, nuker, healer. No room other thinking people, this is mostly PvE though. In my experience at least.

Neriandal Freit · Mar 08, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

No, your quiet correct Deleet.

Playing my Elementalist and (nearly) done with Alistha Freit, my Mesmer, I've noticed a huge difference of people brining me into their groups. I'll be starting my necromancer here shortly, but suspect it will be easier then the Mesmer to go through all of this.

The mesmers need something, we all can agree to this. But, what it is exactly with out destroying the integrity of the mesmer is the problem at hand.

Braggi · Mar 08, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

Uh, give them good degeneration skills. Oh wait, too late.

No, that's a big part of the problem, as degeneration damage is limited to 20 health/sec. Avarre already mentioned the trend to more hitpoints with enemies - everybody else will just counter that with higher dps. A necro may be slower, but at least capable of dishing out mass degen... ANet probably can't just pimp the Mesmer with mass degen here, because the roles are different.

You could already note the turning point in Prophecies, where early degen was a great way to soften up or even kill targets fast, while later you needed a lot more additional damage events (frag spike...) to still have an impact that way. One of the offered solutions were hexes with additional effects when starting or ending.

Why do I use the primary class? To make use of the intrinsic skill (most usefull for interrupting specific overpowered monk/ boss skills) or to use runes and squeeze some more damage or duration out of the build. Fast Cast is situational, degen hits the ceiling anyway,... So Mesmer is still a good secondary PvE class atm, but you rarely need a primary mesmer for most of it.

Priest Of Sin · Mar 08, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

heh heh... what if they took the degen cap off? HOORAY FOR -30 DEGEN FROM 3 SPELLS!

Dracil · Mar 08, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

If they took off the degen cap, remember that YOU and the rest of your party will be suffering 60 health loss per second when those same mesmer mobs use those skills against you.

Obey The Cat · Mar 08, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

The problem is not with mesmers, the problem is with the mindset of the people.
The holy trinity still applies, tank, nuker, healer. No room other thinking people, this is mostly PvE though. In my experience at least.

that's not the mindset. you simply need no thinker most of the time.

Cineris · Mar 09, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I wouldn't mind seeing "Fast Casting" be changed.

The GuildWars.com website describes Fast Casting thusly:

Quote:

This primary attribute lets the Mesmer cast spells more often and for greater overall effect than any other profession.

The way Fast Casting actually works isn't as described, nor does it, as others have pointed out, really seem to bear any real relationship to the flavor of the class. Trouble is, redoing Fast Casting in any major way is essentially forcing a rewrite of the Mesmer class. Although additional energy on interrupts (As has been repeatedly suggested) may be nice, it's not a boost that is going to improve the Mesmer in PvE and unnecessarily affect PvP. Either way, major changes to Fast Casting seem unlikely.

I will say, though, that "Fast Casting" as the name of the attribute is the sort of thing that strikes me as rather restrictive. I cannot think of many potential skills that I would put under the category of "Fast Casting" simply because the flavor of the name is so specific. Other attributes (e.g. "Mysticism" or "Strength" or "Soul Reaping") are somewhat more vague and thus leave more room for future development of skills in that Attribute line. A change of name from "Fast Casting" to "Celerity" (or "Poise" or "Attunement" or something otherwise capable of being understood to function the same as Fast Casting does but also capable of being more broadly interpreted) would be a minor change to make now, but it could open up potential avenues for improvement to be explored in future chapters.

On a slightly different note...

One of the things that did appeal to me about the class [before I had created a Mesmer character] is that it was described as "supporting the entire party in battle with powerful, mind-bending magic" and as a "support character." Unfortunately I was a bit disappointed to see that the class really doesn't play what I consider a support role. It's been suggested elsewhere in this thread but I would be pretty pleased if the Mesmer inspiration line were improved in such a way that a Mesmer could be more directly beneficial to teammates. Even a Necromancer, a class that I would expect to be the least concerned with benefiting party members, has ways to directly help out party members with health and energy regeneration and so on. I can't think anything a Mesmer can really do to help teammates other than occasionally remove a Hex using Inspired Hex.

Yichi · Mar 09, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit

That's my way of thinking

I always love Avarre's posts. It's like sitting down on a comfy couch with a good thing of popcorn and someone you care about, watching the best movie.

"The way she cleans the floor with these people is insane!" is a great way to describe Avarre and those foolish to challenge a skilled mesmer

ROFL u think Avarre's a girl. god wait till i get on vent....

Mylon · Mar 09, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

My problem with mesmers? In my experience, they can't even shut down one person, much less actually do damage. Sure, they can really slow someone down, but, say, 4 monks versus 3 mesmers and a monk, the team with 4 monks stands a better chance of killing someone than the 3 mesmer team does.

Maybe I haven't been keeping up to date with the latest batches of skills, but mesmers have to spend a decent amount of energy to interrupt a skill, only so that skill can recharge in half of the time or less than what it would take for the mesmer's interrupt skill to recharge.

Skills like blackout would be pretty useless if it wasn't for the fact that it kills adrenaline.

the_jos · Mar 09, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mylon

Skills like blackout would be pretty useless if it wasn't for the fact that it kills adrenaline.

And you want me to consider the rest of your post as being of any value at all?

When you play mesmer, you have to think what your opponent is about, what spells/skills are valuable to interrupt, which are harmless.
You have to know when the next 'must interrupt' skill will come and you should counter that one.

In PvE, this is not that important, with the exeption of a few situations.
But then, those can be 'countered' with massive damage (broken AI ftw).

If you want to feel the power of Blackout, GvG monk against a team with a good Blackout mesmer.
When full pressure turns on a player and the moment you want to heal you get blackout, those 6 seconds are very long.
It's also usefull on any build that benefits from a 'chain'.
And there are plenty of those around these days.

bobrath · Mar 09, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracil

If they took off the degen cap, remember that YOU and the rest of your party will be suffering 60 health loss per second when those same mesmer mobs use those skills against you.

Hmmm... What if they took off the degen cap AND converted all degen spells (and conditions) to be percent of max health based?

Carinae · Mar 09, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

How to make mesmers more valuable in PvE:

Reduce the energy regen and total reserves of mobs and bosses so that e-denial is feasible in PvE.

AND

Rig mobs with Shelter and PS, more interrupts, and anti-caster defenses, so that the current strategy of maximizing AOE Direct-Damage (AoE spike) is reduced in effectiveness.

AND

Scale degen (both health and energy degen) so that it becomes stronger vs high level opponents, while remaining at it's current level vs level 20 opponents (PvP)