Curse

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And I'm not saying that it overpowers all low lvl characters. I'm saying that it overpowers all characters. Maybe it's you who hasn't played in a while, but take a character with even a moderate amount of unlocks, grab your party and go play pve for a awhile. Then come back and tell me you didn't steamroll everything in pve. Short of the elite farming areas, can you tell me a single place in pve where its so hard that having even half unlocks doesn't make you godlike?

If you believe any of that, you have absolutely no idea of how this game works, making your posts as useful as a 2nd grader explaining brain surgery.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Your paragraph is entirely predicated on people playing through the game once and only once per character.

I have guildies and friends, so I cannot count the number of times I have voluntarily helped people through THK.

PvE has made it for close to 2 years for me, as well as most folks on this forum.

We are not discussing the end of PvE. We have a sandbox, and players will play in it as long as it is fun. (helping others, farming, yakking, etc)

What would be a better question is the net result to players in the game. Will making these changes to make the game easier to play through again and again by re-acquiring skills unlocked by other characters you have played have a net positive or negative on the player base?

I think that we who argue for this believe that it will bring players back who see a huge workload to try and catch up on the game. I have friends who have ceased playing the game because they did not get every class through Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. They see a HUGE workload ahead of them to get those skills they see me using to beat Varesh silly.

What, they are supposed to buy the PvP packs? Whoops, no help there.

Oh, they are supposed to start characters and play through all three campaigns? Uh, no, they are going to play another specific MMO that is coming out about now because it is more approachable.

Lets do ANet's math, shall we? Cold cash.

Is the number of players who will NOT buy GW:EN greater than the number of players who will buy GW:EN based on and because of this change?

You do the math.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

True, I have guildies who haven't tried new professions since it seem so much work. I also know plenty of players who reach the level cap and ask "what's left for my character?". Other than getting bling and new skills so they could try new things, what is left? Doesn't taking away one of the few differences between a new lvl20 and an old lvl20 make him less likely to play through more than once or twice?

And cold hard cash is the main factor, true. But I disagree with you here. dedicated GW players will go and try all sorts of strange builds and running missions over and over in different ways. I still play pve now and then (either farming or building a new character. But does the casual gamer? Or does he play it so he can "beat" it and then pimp out his character? Does he start a new character, find that he can run all his old skills and get bored halfway through?

nytestalker · Apr 04, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

If you want it, good for you, but I don't think it should just be handed to you.

Quick question...

You do realize that we are asking for nothing we have not already gotten ourselves correct.

We are NOT asking for freebies. Only access to that which we have already unlocked.

No matter how it was unlocked, pve or pvp, all we want is access to it.

You can not really tell me you think getting access to unlocked SKILLS is getting something for free right? We already put the time in to unlock it. Why shouldn't we get it?

Who are you to tell us how to play anyway?

Oh and heres a question for everyone...

What about pvP packs?

If this was added (either just given, or given at ascension/equiv) PvE players would have a REASON to buy those PvP packs right?

Thats money in Anets pocket. And that translates into more stuff for us.

More revenue = More dev time = more content.

:/

Any response to that? Anyone?

mqstout · Apr 04, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Concise answer: 1k gold per skill is too much and skill points are too rare. I've been playing since day 1, and I couldn't even come close to having all skills of a single primary and secondary on any of my characters, let alone have good variety for multiple characters.

Don't just hand them out to new characters, but at least eliminate the gold cost for already-unlocked skills when you reach a skill trainer that could normally teach you that skill, if not removing the skill point cost as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Azum

Primary is about a 140 skills. Playing the game that's less than 140k. Not much.

140k is a heck of a lot of gold. My total net worth across all of my few characters is just slightly higher than that, and that's just because of a couple lucky drops (sup. vigor).

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

I sure hope Anet reads this topic.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Well there we have it. First we were lazy. And now we're greedy. And you wonder why I don't even bother replying to your other "points?"

Tell me how wanting all skills on all characters is not greedy? You get it for one character, sure. Perfectly reasonable. But all? Tell me how you absolutely must HAVE them ALL on every character you play?

And if Rakeman, I notice you went for the insult rather than naming a single pve area you couldn't roll. Just look at all the parties nowadays. Can you say a single place (beginner or end game) that heroes (who have full unlocks) don't just crush totally. Now imagine that in the hands of a human, rather than an AI. Tell me again that isn't overpowered.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

Oh and heres a question for everyone...

What about pvP packs?

If this was added (either just given, or given at ascension/equiv) PvE players would have a REASON to buy those PvP packs right?

Thats money in Anets pocket. And that translates into more stuff for us.

More revenue = More dev time = more content.

:/

Any response to that? Anyone?

Would it really work that way? Or will pver's far and wide suddenly say "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". Will some beginner pve buy the game, see everyone else's newbie characters running around with their uber builds and all he's got is firstorm? And that he could be like that too, if he'd only pay Anet money? That'd go down real well, I'm sure he'd tell all his friends.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And if Rakeman, I notice you went for the insult rather than naming a single pve area you couldn't roll.

It wasn't an insult. It's a fact. What you are saying now has nothing to do with the discussion at all. Nonetheless, I sure HOPE I can get through any PvE area... I guess you forget that this is a game... and if a game is unbeatable... well... not much of a game. Sounds pretty frustrating actually.

I do seriously recommend you go play the game as opposed to discussing it. You really do need to get a better grip on the game's mechanics.

nytestalker · Apr 04, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And if Rakeman, I notice you went for the insult rather than naming a single pve area you couldn't roll. Just look at all the parties nowadays. Can you say a single place (beginner or end game) that heroes (who have full unlocks) don't just crush totally. Now imagine that in the hands of a human, rather than an AI. Tell me again that isn't overpowered.

Thats because pve is easy.... :/

Whats the difference if the group pwns it with all the skills or half the skills?

none... stop grasping at straws.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Would it really work that way? Or will pver's far and wide suddenly say "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". Will some beginner pve buy the game, see everyone else's newbie characters running around with their uber builds and all he's got is firstorm? And that he could be like that too, if he'd only pay Anet money? That'd go down real well, I'm sure he'd tell all his friends.

Yeah, because PvPers far and wide suddenly said "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". I guess all those people rejoicing over the PvP Unlock Packs was just my imagination. And I laugh at your comment about the beginner seeing everybody running around with uber builds. Right now, wont some newbie necromancer in Elona see somebody with Flesh Golem and see that he can be like that too, if he pays Guild Wars money for Factions? And then pay, because he feels it's worth the money? *sigh* I wonder how many times every single argument you make has to be completely destroyed before you give up.

nytestalker · Apr 04, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Would it really work that way? Or will pver's far and wide suddenly say "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". Will some beginner pve buy the game, see everyone else's newbie characters running around with their uber builds and all he's got is firstorm? And that he could be like that too, if he'd only pay Anet money? That'd go down real well, I'm sure he'd tell all his friends.

You have the choice to buy it now. You do not as you do not need it.

Do YOU feel that it would be worth it if buying it gave you access to all the skills for your RP chars? ?

Not everyone would buy it.

A good deal would. And most likely a larger percentage than you seem to think would.

Your fond of telling me why this idea is un-needed, let me recycle that and tell you that you do not need to buy the pack, you can continue to play the way you prefer to, but that should this idea ever be implemented, you would have a choice.

You could "choose" not to buy the pack and get the unlocks...

I do not get a choice. I HAVE to play YOUR WAY at the moment. A bit unfair? Most of the people here think so.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

No, I'm not saying that you can just get through it. I'm saying name me a single place in pve where 3 heroes and 4 henchies don't totally crush everything in your path. I've played through all 3 games with guildies and I've played through all 3 games with henchies and the heroes in nightfall, and they're not too far behind.

And I'm just average. And even I'm saying this would overpower pve and wreck any balance at all. So what's this got to do with anything about game mechanics. Maybe YOU need to play the game more if you're just scraping through pve. Cause your grasp of facts seems a bit off.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

Thats because pve is easy.... :/

Whats the difference if the group pwns it with all the skills or half the skills?

none... stop grasping at straws.

Yes, it is easy. So how is making it even easier for newly created characters going to encourage people to replay pve for the next 6 months?

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

No, I'm not saying that you can just get through it. I'm saying name me a single place in pve where 3 heroes and 4 henchies don't totally crush everything in your path. I've played through all 3 games with guildies and I've played through all 3 games with henchies and the heroes in nightfall, and they're not too far behind.

And I'm just average. And even I'm saying this would overpower pve and wreck any balance at all. So what's this got to do with anything about game mechanics. Maybe YOU need to play the game more if you're just scraping through pve. Cause your grasp of facts seems a bit off.

LOL! Come on, at least try to post something at least SOMEWHAT relevant to the discussion. Or just accept that you're wrong. XD

lyra_song · Apr 04, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

I do not get a choice. I HAVE to play YOUR WAY at the moment. A bit unfair? Most of the people here think so.

You can choose to play your way, youll just have a harder time since you want to skip a lot of the game. .-.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

Yeah, because PvPers far and wide suddenly said "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". I guess all those people rejoicing over the PvP Unlock Packs was just my imagination. And I laugh at your comment about the beginner seeing everybody running around with uber builds. Right now, wont some newbie necromancer in Elona see somebody with Flesh Golem and see that he can be like that too, if he pays Guild Wars money for Factions? And then pay, because he feels it's worth the money? *sigh* I wonder how many times every single argument you make has to be completely destroyed before you give up.

Pvp unlocks are like $40 a pop. That's all you pay. You don't need to own the actual campaign. So you can unlock all skills across all 3 chapters and pvp for like $120.

For pve, you need to own the actual campaign. So assuming you can get the campaigns at prophs at $30, factions at $40 and nightfall at $50. That's $120. And then you need to pay another $120 on top of that? Would you pay that? If you were just some new player, or a casual? Sure you pay to buy factions if you wanted FG, but pay twice? Most will just ignore the unlocks and get FG by capping. But it will stay in their heads that Anet put out something where they would double charge me. Tell me how that will get good press...

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

LOL! Come on, at least try to post something at least SOMEWHAT relevant to the discussion. Or just accept that you're wrong. XD

I notice again that you can't name a single area where you'd have difficulty in pve. A single place in pve where having full unlocks wouldn't overpower the game. Where having all your characters like this wouldn't shorthen the lifetime of pve.

nytestalker · Apr 04, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

No, I'm not saying that you can just get through it. I'm saying name me a single place in pve where 3 heroes and 4 henchies don't totally crush everything in your path. I've played through all 3 games with guildies and I've played through all 3 games with henchies and the heroes in nightfall, and they're not too far behind.

And I'm just average. And even I'm saying this would overpower pve and wreck any balance at all. So what's this got to do with anything about game mechanics. Maybe YOU need to play the game more if you're just scraping through pve. Cause your grasp of facts seems a bit off.

I have not had to say this to someone for a while. But your borderline stubborn.

Look... Learn... And pay attention....

You just told me. That giving players access to skills. Would imbalance pve.

So like, PvE's balance rests soley on the fact the everyone DOES NOT have access to all skills.

That IS what you just said right?

-_-

*sigh*

Whats the difference if someones buys a skill. Then uses it.

Or unlocks a skill. and then uses it.

?

That person is still going to use X skill either way...

The fact that you are most likely being sincere in what you say scares me more than your inability to accept that you are wrong.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I notice again that you can't name a single area where you'd have difficulty in pve. A single place in pve where having full unlocks wouldn't overpower the game. Where having all your characters like this wouldn't shorthen the lifetime of pve.

Exactly. Because that has NOTHING to do with the topic. You are saying PvE is easy. I acknowledge that. PvE is easy. And it wouldn't be any more or less easy with or without the unlock all, except possibly on noob island. It has nothing to do with the topic, so I didn't respond. Sure, you may have 1,000 skills. But you can only use the same amount of skills at once as anybody who has 8 or more. It wouldn't shorten the lifetime of PvE. Stop grasping at straws. Stop posting off topic.

cellardweller · Apr 04, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The natural progression of Prophecies involves Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle

You've just described about 1% of the "natural progression" of prophesies. To me it would be Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle -> Shiverpeaks -> Desert -> Desert -> Maguuma -> Shiverpeaks etc etc etc etc. You want to constrain people to using the same fraction of skills over and over?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

It is your choice to buy more skills outside of the ones they give you by default. As Ernada said some of the "bread and butter" skills are given to you. You have enough skills to be functional.

No, its my expectation to be able to access a reasonable amount of the games content without having to grind for thousands of hours first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The game is designed to be played a certain way.
...

The game was also "designed" to have refund points and unlocks only via pve. When enough people tell anet that the design they came up with inteferes with their enjoyment, they'll come around.