Curse

Mythics · Mar 30, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Personette

I think it's much harder to defend a system whereby more and more skills are introduced with each chapter, and any new OR old character that wants to acquire them has to spend one platinum each in order to do so. I, for one, am pretty tired of spending all my gold buying skills for my dervish and my rit.

At least you can still find some interest in playing. The game never lets you truly get involved in the story and since realism is shot down to improve the quality of the game (which I am in support of), the immersion is never anywhere near good enough to me. Since I can't really enjoy the story, quests, or missions.. I enjoy changing my build around on a regular basis. I like to perfect it per mission or quest, try new things all the time.

Without the skill system being at least somewhat forgiving, I have no interest in the game. The skill system in itself though for PvP, has been enough to convince me to buy all three chapters though. If PvE was the same, I'd probably be playing it right now instead of griping more.

Jongo River · Mar 30, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

-You should get to fully enjoy the features that you already spent time unlocking if you wish, or should at least have an easier time getting them (for example, free but costs a skill point), so that you don't have to spend your time grinding.

You know I'd forgotton about skill points - I don't think I've thought about them since the early days of Prophecies. It seems that they should be the wall you hit, that stops you from immediately aquiring everything, but in reality, I suspect most casual players run out of cash long before skill points. I know I do.

zwei2stein · Mar 30, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr1zz one

Maybe part of the reasoning is that a new character with fully unlocked skills might be a little overpowered in those low level areas.

Koss on L2 with all skills and elites is hardly overpowered ...

The Ernada · Mar 30, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Seriously, some of you are still stuck on the mindset that there's "high level" skills in GW. This isnt an MMO where you only get certain "uber" skills the higher you level. The only thing similar to this in GW to this are elites.

It's not overpowered at all to have access to any skill at the beginning. My level 2 warrior still can't do much damage with ANY skill.

lyra_song · Mar 30, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythics

To enjoy playing the game, I want to use the skills that I've earned, regardless of which character I was on at the time. My goal when I play is to enjoy myself, and since the storyline is old after the first time you see/hear it, the skill system (which is, imo, the best thing about GW) is the only re-playable part of the game.

While i understand your motivation behind your suggestion (and the many others who post this idea over and over) and sympathize completely (17 character slots ftl X_X), i will have to continue to disagree on allowing access to the unlocked skills simply because it counterpoints the game's basic design.

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Can you truly defend the realism side of the RPG, when there are polls like the quote you referred to by Andrew, that show blatant numbers of the community on that forum that agree with the issue, if not the whole suggestion?

Just because the community thinks its a good idea does not mean its a good idea. Just because you want it, doesn't mean you should get it. Theres a point where pleasing the community must not take precedence over a functioning game design.

Theres a lot of ideas that will please a large population of the community but should not or cannot be implemented simply because it would break the design of the game (technically, balance-wise, pace-wise, story-wise etc).

HOWEVER!!!!11ONE This does not mean we cannot come to terms to a compromise of alternate ways to give that same basic function without completely destroying the only sort of character development the game has (which as you pointed out is shallow and pointless enough..but thats just me being cynical).

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Grind is a repetitive process that is required to continue through the game, true. You call the skill acquisition a non-grind because it's not required to beat the game, but neither are armor, items, elites, etc. There are a lot of things that aren't truly required, but can actually make or break the game for the player. This is one of those, from my perspective.

No, youve got my pov backwards. In my perspective anything required to continue the game is NOT a grind.

My warrior in PvE uses the elite skill Charge! Her skillset all comes from early in the game: Dismember, Axe rake, Executioner, Watch Yourself! Healsig, Go For the Eyes! res, All very very boring basic skills you earn early on, but effective nonetheless. These things did not require me to grind, since Charge! is effectively along the way of the Primary Quest in perdition.

Heck...my ranger uses all basic skills, Barrage is on a primary mission (markis), my necro uses Reaper's Mark (my favorite necro elite ATM) which she got doing that primary quest at Champion's Dawn (shes from Prophecies).

Geeze....now that i look at it...my builds are pretty boring ._.

Anyway...Would you not agree, that a casual player can make it through the end of the game without really needing a huge pool of skills? Boring basic skills you earn early on can take you to the end of the game.

However i will agree that those various grinds (getting tons of skills, getting tons of elites, getting 15k armors, getting drunk, cartographer, defender, rank, champion, gladiator, treasure hunter) while not really required, are really what makes the game fun (or...not fun).

So what can we do about it? Ive seen various ideas surface on skill acquisition.

-skill trainers accepting quest rewards like Battle Commendations, Luxon Totems, etc.
-more hero points
-return of skill quests
-Discount on unlocked skills This is probably what i would choose.
-No skill point requirement for unlocked skills This is a good idea too.
-Skill trainers in the wild that teach you skills if you beat them
-buying unlocked skills in bulk

For me, getting things faster/alternate methods/multiple methods is ok in PvE. getting things instantly is not.

Jetdoc · Mar 30, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

It's not overpowered at all to have access to any skill at the beginning. My level 2 warrior still can't do much damage with ANY skill.

Are you sure that it is your warrior?

<I kid>

Honestly, I found that very low level characters with access to elites really are overpowered early in the game.

When I first got my heroes, I was surprised that Dunkoro had access to Mark of Protection. My level 10 ranger was able to take on three level 20 baddies with just me and Dunk...thanks to that spell.

That simply isn't right in the true concept of a PvE game.

Mythics · Mar 30, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

No, youve got my pov backwards. In my perspective anything required to continue the game is NOT a grind.

There was a game on SNES that was really awesome, fun to play, etc etc. The problem with it was that from one area to the next, mobs increased by almost doubling their level. That caused a level treadmill between every area. Just because it's required to level almost constantly, doesn't mean that it isn't a grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Anyway...Would you not agree, that a casual player can make it through the end of the game without really needing a huge pool of skills? Boring basic skills you earn early on can take you to the end of the game.

I would agree, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

However i will agree that those various grinds (getting tons of skills, getting tons of elites, getting 15k armors, getting drunk, cartographer, defender, rank, champion, gladiator, treasure hunter) while not really required, are really what makes the game fun (or...not fun).

You've got 99% of what I'm saying to a T I think, the only thing you really seem to be lacking is that it's not a grind your first time through the game with that class. It's rather enjoyable even to find the skills, trainers, quests, etc. I don't mind, well..not that much at least, waiting till moments before I beat the game to get X skill.

However, the next time I play, having to re-acquire those skills becomes a grind. Taking out that process, in no way that I can tell, would cause any issues outside of arbitrary fixable ones that are semi-issues already.

You've stated very well that you understand my point of view, but I really don't seem to understand yours. How could instant access to skills you've already unlocked break the game? I'd get access to them eventually anyway, but due to the time and work (not fun at all), why would I bother? It's much easier for me to just not play again and get a different game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

-Discount on unlocked skills This is probably what i would choose.

If it was a flat 50g a piece or something that trivial, sure. There could even be a specific NPC to teach you what other character's you've had has taught him. Kinda like a xu agent, but for skills vs inventory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

-No skill point requirement for unlocked skills This is a good idea too.

Skill points were only an issue in Chapter 1, 2 and 3 is gold. Especially when you look at the number of skills possible to buy in combination with the cumulative cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

-buying unlocked skills in bulk

Could you describe this suggestion a little more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

For me, getting things faster/alternate methods/multiple methods is ok in PvE. getting things instantly is not.

I understand the statement, but not the logic since there's not much explanation there :P

The only reason I can think of that would make A.Net not want to do this would be their sale of character slots. I consider that a poor reason from a gamer's aspect, but not from a business aspect.

Also, what's your pov on unlocked access after ascending?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

When I first got my heroes, I was surprised that Dunkoro had access to Mark of Protection. My level 10 ranger was able to take on three level 20 baddies with just me and Dunk...thanks to that spell.

That simply isn't right in the true concept of a PvE game.

<-Because you are used to level being an important factor within a PvE game.
->Skills ARE balanced based on the character's being level 20.
<-If you could take on 3 level 20's at level 10, how many could you take on at level 20? Doesn't that just say that the mob AI is poor and untalented?

Sounds to me like those 'baddies', especially at level 20, suck and should probably be buffed. That's just another aspect of the PvE that I dislike, it's all about quantity of monsters and their base damage/health instead of how good their bar's are.

wynoski · Mar 30, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The concept of Unlocking Skills/Mods/Runes is ultimately designed for PvP, not for PvE and benefits PvP almost exclusively with 2 main exceptions.

One instance in Guild Wars where unlocked skills are accessible in PvE, and thats through heros only (a new addition). The other are skill trainers, being that they are able to sell you any unlocked skills for that campaign (also a change from the original design).

And this system itself is pretty broken, giving full advantaged to UAS'ed players and veterans a major boost. IMO, this is a "gimme". Anet coddling the players. These items are out of place in the PvE environment.

Well I have to disagree...I have done everything in the game with my Necro...wanted to switch ot a Monk and get a ranger going so I could try trapping, or other things...being able to buy a skill for my Monk in LA that my Necro unlocked in Ember light camp is hughe for me. I am already an experience player...why should I have to drag my monk from NF althe way to THK jsut to buy a skill? I do think Elites need to be capped by each character tho...otherwise it makes the game too easy

lyra_song · Mar 30, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythics

There was a game on SNES that was really awesome, fun to play, etc etc. The problem with it was that from one area to the next, mobs increased by almost doubling their level. That caused a level treadmill between every area. Just because it's required to level almost constantly, doesn't mean that it isn't a grind.

oh i love those games sometimes...sometimes...ya...but that example doesnt apply to GW.

GW's main story quest has very little grind. (Agree or disagree please)

Start to finish, even if you do just primary quests, pickup all your drops and sell them, youll be able to get max armor easily, acquire adequate skills, reach lvl 20, and beat the game.

I did a little self imposed challenge. I played my Sin up to lvl 20 without buying storage. So i had to sell everything. By the time i reached Kaineng, i had about 9k. More than enough for armor, since i liked basic looking armor anyway. Im still using my pre-order daggers and skills from Shing Jea area.

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You've got 99% of what I'm saying to a T I think, the only thing you really seem to be lacking is that it's not a grind your first time through the game with that class. It's rather enjoyable even to find the skills, trainers, quests, etc. I don't mind, well..not that much at least, waiting till moments before I beat the game to get X skill.

However, the next time I play, having to re-acquire those skills becomes a grind. Taking out that process, in no way that I can tell, would cause any issues outside of arbitrary fixable ones that are semi-issues already.

Ok...well i wont continue without some clarification.

Are we talking about beating the game once with one class...then starting a new character of the same class? or just some other class, and just wanting access to those skills via secondary?

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You've stated very well that you understand my point of view, but I really don't seem to understand yours. How could instant access to skills you've already unlocked break the game? I'd get access to them eventually anyway, but due to the time and work (not fun at all), why would I bother? It's much easier for me to just not play again and get a different game.

Maybe its just the designer in me. I don't like it when something is made for a certain purpose, and someone comes along and decides they want to use it for something contrary to its purpose. Its a bit of a bastardization and irks me.

How could instant access to skills you've already unlocked break the game?

It wouldn't. If this was PvP.

What is the purpose of PvP? To compete vs other players
How does unlocked skills/mods/runes work for this purpose? The no grind concept of GW forces it to create a PvP environment where everyone has access to the same things to compete and no one has any mechanical advantage with superior skills/weapons. The unlocked pool is your depository of tools to compete.

What is the pupose of PvE? To adventure through story mode in a linear fashion.
How does unlocked skills/mods/runes work for this purpose? it doesnt...unlocked anything doesn't benefit PvE at all (with the exceptions).

Lets look at this in a more historical sense

The 8 skills are supposed to represent 8 rings, 1 worn on each finger.
Each skill is actually a physical item in the game.

so.

Do you think that it would make sense to create a brand new char with a whole set of physical items?

In that sense why cant it be that newly made characters instantly have all unlocked mods and runes?

Do you see how game breaking that is? Its simply too good to exist. It removes what little challenge and purpose there is in PvE.

The Ernada · Mar 30, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Do you see how game breaking that is? Its simply too good to exist. It removes what little challenge and purpose there is in PvE.

As I said before, PVE's failures has nothing to do with the skill system itself but with PVE itself. PVE is basically a setup of monsters who act like cannonfodder that present no challenge and you go through swarm after swarm of them. If it takes a dozen level 28 monsters just to present a "challenge" to the average team of 8 level 20 players then there's something wrong.

Does preventing people access to unlocked skills really make any difference in the current PVE "challenge?" If someone who is already very familiar with the game starts a new character or changes his secondary, do you honestly believe that somehow denying access to unlocked skills will make it more challenging and fun? It's just unnecessary the same way attribute refund points were. The only thing holding us back are people's narrow view of how "RPG" should be. That's not meant as an insult but there's no other way to put it.

As for not being fair to newbies, I actually think it's a good thing that they start out with limited selection of skills. It can be overwhelming to have that many skills at once. Give them the most simple ones to start and learn and let them unlock the way we once did. It worked fine for us. Dont worry so much about newbies. They dont need us to hold their hands. The rest of us having access to unlocked skills wont affect them.

lyra_song · Mar 30, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Ok question then.

If Guild Wars did not have a seperate PvP section, and the unlocked items merely kept track of all the things youve seen with all your characters (kind of like a checklist basically of things to unlock in the game, basically another title) and had zero merit to the game other than being a compiled list, would such a suggestion exist?

Shmanka · Mar 30, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

These questions about skill unlocking/pre unlocked made me really wonder about GW2.

These things I would assume to be true:

1. There is no Balthazaar Faction in GW2, since there is no need for it as everything is previously unlocked.
2. There is a different form of profit rewarded for PvP, since there is no PvE and PvP division of characters anymore. (This was explained in one of the interviews floating around)
3. The sidekick system allows for people of higher levels to be companioned as a lower level ally with the same statistics.

So how does this work in "world pvp" and gvg?

Well since all skills are unlocked, and levels must have a statistical cap somewhere along the lines, if anyone is familiar with DotA(Defence of the Ancients) I would assume GvG to follow more closely to this. As much as I don't like it I have this chill down my spine. It makes more then enough sense on too many levels, this would compensate for having any skills you wanted unlocked as well as the level difference/debate of unclarity.

World PvP I find a huge alliance battle that never ends, wreckless like random arena and as fast as heroes ascent.

I think the environment would have huge huge impact on how the skill unlocking works, imagine otherwise systems that you don't need anything to unlock yet you already can do everything for PvP.

I hope this idea changes, and unlocking becomes mandatory in my opinion it does not determine skill, but it shows determination to be competitive.

The Ernada · Mar 30, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Ok question then.

If Guild Wars did not have a seperate PvP section, and the unlocked items merely kept track of all the things youve seen with all your characters (kind of like a checklist basically of things to unlock in the game, basically another title) and had zero merit to the game other than being a compiled list, would such a suggestion exist?

Well, if there were no PVP I would have stopped playing a long time ago. But let's put that aside.

If there were only GW PVE and I didnt care for PVP, I still would have an issue with this. I still wouldnt start new characters that I already have the majority of skills for. I still wouldnt find re-buying skills any more fun. I still find the lack of flexibility in making builds one of the reasons PVE is stagnant.

So yes, the issues remain even if there were no PVP section.

Mythics · Mar 30, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

GW's main story quest has very little grind. (Agree or disagree please)

Agreed, completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Are we talking about beating the game once with one class...then starting a new character of the same class? or just some other class, and just wanting access to those skills via secondary?

I'll give a couple quick examples:
1. You made it a good way through the game with a Ele/Mes. You think to go Mes/Ele instead, but are left to re-acquire all the same skills. Now, you could have beaten the game or just made it about half-way.. either way, your second time through will be very boring.

2. You made it a good way through the game or even beat it, using a Ele/Mes. You make a new character and enjoy playing this new class. You ascend, change to a secondary of Ele or Mes, but have to go back through the whole game doing the few class specific quests to reacquire skills or you grind for gold/skill points.

Does that help any?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

What is the pupose of PvE? To adventure through story mode in a linear fashion.

It's not supposed to be completely linear. Hint: Map Travel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How does unlocked skills/mods/runes work for this purpose? it doesnt...unlocked anything doesn't benefit PvE at all (with the exceptions).

Items aren't 'uber/leet' to prevent players from choosing a party member soley based on their time invested in the game. Why shouldn't skills be the same way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Do you think that it would make sense to create a brand new char with a whole set of physical items?

Character A passed on the 'rings' to Character B. Character generation would leave you with a newborn baby if it was going for realism. Realism in a fantasy video game is like realism in a fantasy movie, don't analyze it or it'll ruin it for you (and others in this case).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

In that sense why cant it be that newly made characters instantly have all unlocked mods and runes?

They could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Do you see how game breaking that is? Its simply too good to exist. It removes what little challenge and purpose there is in PvE.

The little challenge and purpose in PvE is already little. This suggestion would, as The Ernada already stated, only show the problem more. Scraping the dirt off of a really ugly lamp didn't make it uglier, it just revealed just how ugly it truly is. Wether it's ugly or not is up to the individual looking at it of course, but I agree that PvE is one ugly lamp regardless. That's why my wanting to scrape the dirt off of it could in the end be a good thing.

A.Net already knows how PvE offers masses of mobs without that great of AI. It's all about # of mobs, damage of mobs, and health of mobs.. not their actual ability to oppose you. Hint: Hard Mode.

Having an elite in Pre-searing for example shouldn't actually be overpowered except that the balancing is based on the player being a level 20. It's just the fact that mobs in pre-searing don't have res, enchant removal, interupts, mass hexes, or even full skill bars. It's all about quantity, damage, and health.

dr1zz one · Mar 30, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Koss on L2 with all skills and elites is hardly overpowered ...

My Koss with Starbust kills everything outside Kamadan by himself.

Can you imagine making an E/D with all unlocked skills? I could solo the whole entire starter island without breaking a sweat.

Shmanka · Mar 30, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythics

I'll give a couple quick examples:
1. You made it a good way through the game with a Ele/Mes. You think to go Mes/Ele instead, but are left to re-acquire all the same skills. Now, you could have beaten the game or just made it about half-way.. either way, your second time through will be very boring.

2. You made it a good way through the game or even beat it, using a Ele/Mes. You make a new character and enjoy playing this new class. You ascend, change to a secondary of Ele or Mes, but have to go back through the whole game doing the few class specific quests to reacquire skills or you grind for gold/skill points.

Does that help any?

To be honest I am all for skills unlocked PER character. I just think it makes more sense flavor wise more then anything else.

My warrior gets some insane attack skills at the end of the game, my monk I decide to make it have an axe for no reason... I mow through the game.

The story in PvE accords for your character, in PvP it accords for your account. Your rewards per character in PvE should be unique to that characters accomplishments. It just doesn't make sense as to why being able to have the entire game for you done in one run works out to having anything you want. If this logic proceeded I guess all my characters get KoaBD, FoW armor, Legendary Survivor, and every single elite unlocked and all skills unlocked so whenever I make a new character I don't even have to play anymore in PvE. It's just all done for me. There is a reason PvP characters don't enter the PvE world.

Mythics · Mar 30, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr1zz one

Can you imagine making an E/D with all unlocked skills? I could solo the whole entire starter island without breaking a sweat.

Could you imagine if you had the ability to make a E/D with all unlocked skills thinking you could solo the whole entire starter island, but then found out that the mobs were actually semi-intelligent and put hexes and conditions on you, interupted you from time to time, and even removed all your uber elite enchants?

Wow, then you might need an interupting mes of your own, or perhaps a monk to heal/remove hexes/conditions. :O Then you might not have enough damage since they all of a sudden got smart on you (and carried a monk with them more often than not), so you have your friend who's an Ele join you too.

Wait, then the PvE would have been improved alongside access to unlocked skills and who would want PvE to be non-soloable? .....

Jetdoc · Mar 30, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Mythics - the point you are missing is that, even if you improved the AI, the natural progression of a PvE game is to make the creatures more difficult as you progress in the game. You see it in all three chapters that have been released.

Giving your characters access very early access to every skill imbalances that progression. It follows naturally that as the creatures get tougher, your character has more ability to adapt and conquer that new challenge.

The Ernada · Mar 30, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

If this logic proceeded I guess all my characters get KoaBD, FoW armor, Legendary Survivor, and every single elite unlocked and all skills unlocked so whenever I make a new character I don't even have to play anymore in PvE. It's just all done for me. There is a reason PvP characters don't enter the PvE world.

That's not logic. It's warping an analogy to fit your argument...which is why I hate analogies. Superficial titles and "elite" armor are NOT skills. They are superficial and not used in gameplay (FOW skin not armor itself)

And you missed the point completely. Unlocking does not mean "it's all done for you" It's just the opposite. We'd like to do the campaign or try with the same character but with a different seconday AGAIN. But this rebuying skills garbage deters us from doing so. So dont even try to pass it off as lazyness.

dr1zz one · Mar 30, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythics

Could you imagine if you had the ability to make a E/D with all unlocked skills thinking you could solo the whole entire starter island, but then found out that the mobs were actually semi-intelligent and put hexes and conditions on you, interupted you from time to time, and even removed all your uber elite enchants?

Wow, then you might need an interupting mes of your own, or perhaps a monk to heal/remove hexes/conditions. :O Then you might not have enough damage since they all of a sudden got smart on you (and carried a monk with them more often than not), so you have your friend who's an Ele join you too.

Wait, then the PvE would have been improved alongside access to unlocked skills and who would want PvE to be non-soloable? .....

Then i would just switch to E/Rt or whatever combination I need.

Who would want PvE to be unchallenging? Its easy enough as is with what you are given.
Wait, if they improve the AI again, then we will get the "its too hard" posts. Where will the true beginners to the game get their chance to learn the aspects of chaining skills and the synergies of certain class combinations?

Ill just stay out of this one for now. This theory has been shot down so many times its just rediculous that it keeps coming up. PvE is a grind and will continue to be a grind for those that want something out of it. For those that want everything handed to them on a platter, thats just too bad. Why even bother playing this game.