Curse

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Lol, in Prophecies it was right at the top, on the front page of www.guildwars.com

Pretty shallow surface eh?

Home > Gameplay > Synopsis

Quote:

ou don't have to spend countless hours on a leveling treadmill to get to the interesting parts of the game

Quote:

Built for Competition

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you.

The fact that "competitive" is the second main heading on the title bar.

It was marketed as a PvP game, else the PvE content is too pitiful to be considered a game.

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

And it's right on the freaking box. Not much digging under the surface eh?

ayame ftw · Apr 05, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

wow, game with pve skills that tries to add pvp and fails at it BECAUSE it are pve orientated skills. I find this normal because the focus is on the pve aspects.
Gw is exactly the opposite, game with pvp orientated skills that tries to blend them into the a pve world.

the moral of the story is:
u cant mix pve with pvp

keep pve skills completely separated from pvp and vice versa.

I hope fury will prove this, by making a pvp only game…

Kas · Apr 05, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Get the old website up. Then come and try to lecture me.
Read old magazines, then come and try to lecture me.
Read old ads, then come and try to lecture me.

You fail.

SotiCoto · Apr 05, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I was never much into PvP in the first place.
I've come to see Alliance Battles as almost essential for some parts.... like the aquisition of 15k Kurzick armour.... but that is about it.

But then suddenly I'm finding that various skills that are essential to the builds I use just to get by in PvE are suddenly messed up... where skills used with utter disregard by the enemy monsters are mysteriously buffed....
This seems to happen over and over again.
PvPers find a build that works for them... and everyone starts abusing it to beat each other up in PvP. A-Net come along and destroy the skill synergy.... and those who need it just to have any sort of advantage over the monsters in PvE suffer for it.

A-Net are destroying skill synergy.
Monsters essentially don't use skill synergy...
So what A-Net are doing is turning PvE characters into monsters....
And who do you suppose is going to win in the battle between the group of 8 level 20 monsters and the hoarde of 20 level 24 to 28 monsters?

¬_¬

This isn't just turning to "PvE or PvP" ... It is turning into "GW or Quit" ...
The nerfs are making it constantly more difficult to get by in PvE .... and constantly putting me off PvP for fear of becoming any more like the gimps who cause A-Net to make the nerfs in the first place. >_<;

Gli · Apr 05, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Actually GW is sold as a grindless competition driven game.

They even stressed the Competitive Online RPG and not MMORPG
With a level cap of 20 and PvP chars creation, its always biased towards highly replayable PvP content. For PvE, there are many better games than Guild Wars.

For PvP, GW has a niche... for now.

I'm pretty sure it was a Cooperative Online RPG back when I bought it. 'Competitive' snuck into the CORPG abbreviation at a later time. I'll check some old material when I get home to be 100% sure.

Cass · Apr 05, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

If Anet would take a more intelligent approach to creating a challenge in PvE, some of this might even matter.

As it stands, it's either too easy, or it's too hard not because your skills were nerfed, but because 40+ margonites descended upon your party, and whenever you use a skill, you Magically take 20 damage (env. effects).

Anet needs to change direction in PvE design and draw it back in line with the PvP world, so that valid and good skills see their proper use in both. This would reward actual skill in playing and build design.

PvE isn't fun when it's just plain easy and you can power through everything with your Firestorm ele (pre-scatter nerf), without ever changing a skill.

For the record, I also play both PvP and PvE.

Brianna · Apr 05, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Lol yeah.. i agree with Cass. Twenty thousand mobs of Margonites and Tormented swarm onto you in the end... that is ultimately what made me quit nightfall, i will never in my life touch that game again, Just because the annoyance.. not convenient, and not worth my time. As i said once before.. i like a good challenge.. but not to get tossed by every monster that i come across.. but i enjoy factions and prophecies still.

Zeph · Apr 05, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSGashapon

Permanently uncouple PvE from PvP entirely and the problem will [read: should] go away completely.

If Anet created a PVE only game I'd be the first in line to buy it. I'm getting pretty sick of PVE players being treated like second class citizens, in both the way they are spoken down to by pvp players and the way skills are always changed to suit the pvp enviroment with pve appearing as only a mild after thought. And this whole elitism that a lot of pvp player have only forces a bigger wedge between pvp & pve.

Don't get me wrong I have played a bit of pvp, enough to gain my bambi at least (and whilst working to get that I lost track of the times I was called a scrub and/or told to get back to pve), and understand where a lot of the skill balances are coming from for that competative enviroment but while there skills are shared between the two different facets of the game; it is always the pve side that suffers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Take the 55 monk. Or the solo trappers. They clean everything from level 1 to level something monsters yet they're being untouched because no one in PvP complain about them.

It's not about broken or not broken skills/mechanic. It's about one side of the player base force feeding changes to the other side. That's what's happening. People just blindly say that SR is broken in PvE to justify the appropriate changes in PvP.

You just gained my complete respect. Your one of very few pvp players that I have ever seen who has told it like it is, rather than how it appears from the lofted golden pedestal that 99% of pvp players seem to think they are on.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kas

Get the old website up. Then come and try to lecture me.
Read old magazines, then come and try to lecture me.
Read old ads, then come and try to lecture me.

You fail.

Well as I just indicated in my previous post, that even in the current encarnation of GW, PvP is still the basis of the game.

Anyway, if PvE was balanced, one trick pony builds like 55ing etc would be dead fast.

Its because nobody really cares for the welfare of monsters and NPCs. PvP players will only care about balance in their game. Most PvEers will care about the nice shiney drops your mobs will give you. The mere term of farming makes this point irrefutable. To kill the mobs in the fastest way possible leads to inflexible direct counter builds to the mobs you encounter in the field.

Make the mobs random with a complete variety of skill, and it will actually make it interesting to play.

As an analogy, if every single team in GvG ran 6 melee trains, you bet that many teams will bring every single physical shutdowns in the game.
Then because of this people will bring caster shutdown to counter the physical shutdown, but then physical shutdown is reduced so people will sway towards physical pressure again.
In PvE this doesn't happen, or simply not evolving fast enough. Its been the same way since I started playing just under 2 years ago. People find imbalanced mechanism (gear trick, AoE, SR) and abuse it. But since the other side are AI, they won't complain =O.

I really doubt any PvErs will seriously complain about anything they bring is seriously imba...

[/rant]

Taurucis · Apr 05, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I think GW is PvP only, you've got the players hating each other.

I'm not exactly sure what the title means but from reading some posts I have come to this conclusion. ANET is changing the game based on what the PvP crowd says, no matter how much it screws over the PvE crowd. You have skills only useful in PvP being buffed, and skills better for PvE being nerfed. Who wins? The PvP elitists who think anyone who plays PvE is a "scrub" and the monsters.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 05, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

A good player will learn to play with the skills available whether it be PVE or PVP.
You just have to find what works for each individual situation and work with it. Be creative, mix and match until you find what you are comfortable with and just because it isn't what everyone else uses doesn't mean it won't work.

mcsumo · Apr 05, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Surely you can't be serious with the complaints about them making PVE 'hard'. My friend and I have played through every campaign, as a team with henchmen (for prophecies) and heroes for NF then Factions. All that is needed is careful positioning and aggro control. The only things I think we struggled with were Shiro in both games and Grand Court of Sebelkeh masters. But then we just kept trying different things until we got it right.

Now when I go back to any area in PvE having played it through once, I find them really too easy. Although masters time on Sebelkeh is still bloomin tight.

A necromancer will still be a viable and in fact extremely potent option in PvE. Any build that relies on their SR energy to be able to keep casting as things drop dead all around them, is either designed for VERY poor teams or easy, solo, I don't even really have to concentrate farming. SS is still a great skill for certain situations and MMs are still gonna work, you just will maybe need to bring some energy management and actually use your brains a little.

All good IMO.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsumo

Surely you can't be serious with the complaints about them making PVE 'hard'. My friend and I have played through every campaign, as a team with henchmen (for prophecies) and heroes for NF then Factions. All that is needed is careful positioning and aggro control. The only things I think we struggled with were Shiro in both games and Grand Court of Sebelkeh masters. But then we just kept trying different things until we got it right.

Now when I go back to any area in PvE having played it through once, I find them really too easy. Although masters time on Sebelkeh is still bloomin tight.

A necromancer will still be a viable and in fact extremely potent option in PvE. Any build that relies on their SR energy to be able to keep casting as things drop dead all around them, is either designed for VERY poor teams or easy, solo, I don't even really have to concentrate farming. SS is still a great skill for certain situations and MMs are still gonna work, you just will maybe need to bring some energy management and actually use your brains a little.

All good IMO.

Finally, somebody sees past the zOMG nerf QQ.

Crutches have finally been reduced.

Mordakai · Apr 05, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Does this issue become moot once Guild Wars 2 comes out?

GW2 will separate PvE from PvP.

TabascoSauce · Apr 05, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Take the 55 monk. Or the solo trappers. They clean everything from level 1 to level something monsters yet they're being untouched because no one in PvP complains about them.

It's not about broken or not broken skills/mechanic. It's about one side of the player base force feeding changes to the other side. That's what's happening. People just blindly say that SR is broken in PvE to justify the appropriate changes in PvP.

QFT.

TCjr is right, if a skill is exploitable in PvE but not PvP, they will alter mob behavior instead of changing the skill, to make mobs run away from DoT AoEs. (weakening the 55 monk)

Irregardless of the nerf to SR and how bad or good it is, this relationship is true.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

EternalTempest · Apr 05, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Gw2 is both PvP and PvE but... there looks to be a change

With Eyes of the North getting 50 pvp only skills

And GW2 talking about how PvE and world battles pvp having high or unlimited where structured pvp would not.'

This screams to me pvp and ab battle like pvp will be the same... where HoH and other would be structured.

I think Anet plans on delivering a game that offers both worlds but a more separate line between them.

The dev have been doing a balancing act to please both sides and fully support both sides. That also means one side gets hit harder then the other at times.

Remeber how Necro's got hit with minion limit.. and it turned out because of how Factions and if they didn't do it... it would of be insane.
This could also be because of new skill (that we don't know) or the design of EOTN.

SotiCoto · Apr 05, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

If Anet created a PVE only game I'd be the first in line to buy it. I'm getting pretty sick of PVE players being treated like second class citizens, in both the way they are spoken down to by pvp players and the way skills are always changed to suit the pvp enviroment with pve appearing as only a mild after thought. And this whole elitism that a lot of pvp player have only forces a bigger wedge between pvp & pve.

Don't get me wrong I have played a bit of pvp, enough to gain my bambi at least (and whilst working to get that I lost track of the times I was called a scrub and/or told to get back to pve), and understand where a lot of the skill balances are coming from for that competative enviroment but while there skills are shared between the two different facets of the game; it is always the pve side that suffers.

On the money, my good man.

Though that doesn't address the whole of the problem.
Guild Wars is rife with bigotry.

The key problem as you addressed is that of the Elitist PvPers... who seem to be of the opinion that PvE is just the "Pre-Searing" of the game, so to speak.... as though there were anything entertaining about repeatedly beating up other random people with clone builds in the same arenas.
I have nothing positive to say about those people whatsoever, so I will drop the matter.

Then of course you have the Elite Farmers... the ones who go through Urgoz's Warren and the Domain of Anguish ... and solo-farm the Underworld when they need a break. The sorts of people who have inventories riddled with Ectoplasm, expect everyone to trade in Ectoplasm in the hundreds, and consider those who spend time OUTSIDE the Elite areas nothing more than a joke. They're the sort of people who regularly trade in perfect golds and will even sneer at someone who dares suggest a req.12 or 14^50 weapon might ever be used for anything.
They sicken me too... though not as much as the PvPers...

After that... are the casual trolls and the like. I notice there are often a lot of them in Shing Jea Monastary and Pre-Searing Ascalon. They like nothing better than to prat about... communicate in some kind of bizarre set of symbols and abbreviations... and insult whoever they feel like as they go by. Quite often they're just after the drunk title or whatever, as there are usually a few booze comments floating around the place. They are the secondary reason (behind the trade-spammers) why I tend to keep the Local Chat channel deactivated.

Last but not least.... there are the socio-addicts. The gimps that riddle most mission areas that see Heroes and Henchies as anathema. I have to be careful whenever I need to team up with anyone so as to avoid joining with the sorts of teams who will tell me to drop my heroes.... as if they think they would be even half as good. They're just deluded.... and I leave them to their own business.

I have insults thrown at me on a fairly regular basis by ALL of the above... and do my utmost to avoid them.
I don't have any friends that play guild wars. I have a list of contacts in game who have been respectable to me in the past.... but most of them aren't even online any more. I got kicked out of a decent guild because despite their originally inviting me (and putting up with my lack of PvP enthusiasm) I happened to be stuck without access to GW for a week.

Because of the generally offensive, elitist and unpleasant attitude of much of Guild Wars (and to avoid oppurtunist guild recruiters), I have had to make my own solo-guild... where I am the only member.... And I go everywhere alone. It is leaving me wondering sometimes why I even bought the game in the first place.
There just aren't enough decent people out there.

[Not only that, but people tend to start spamming abbreviated nonsense at me when I complain about their generally intolerable behaviour. What the heck is it with people and using abbreviations outside of combat areas? Are they THAT typing-impaired?]

Etta · Apr 05, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Does this issue become moot once Guild Wars 2 comes out?

GW2 will separate PvE from PvP.

Maybe that's one of the reason they're making GW2. Anet can't win, please, or fix both sides in GW1 anymore. They can't be arse, so they're making a new fresh start.

Avarre · Apr 05, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Guild Wars is rife with bigotry.

You didn't happen to notice the collosal irony in writing your post, did you?