Curse

Blame the Monks · Apr 09, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light of Cantha

Why is it that PvPers always seem to characterize 'serious' PvE players as 55 farmers, hellbent on drops.

Because the all 3 chapters of the pve game can be completed with masters on all missions and all quests completed in 50 hours. What do you do with your next 2000 hours of play time? Exactly, you farm shinys.

And for the record, I consider myself a serious pver and pvper. I am not looking down on pvers, just pointing out the reality -- getting new armor, a sense of satisfaction in finding/doing something cool, and the social aspect of gaming is what drives pve -- rarely, if ever, does balance matter to any of that.

tomcruisejr · Apr 09, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

..
It has been known for a while - since MM was introduced that it was broken - especially for PvE since you can just blow through a mission with 3-4 players instead of 8.

If there is an official A.Net board named "The Supreme Board of Regents Ensuring Balanced PvE Play (Lol)" and they made a rule saying that "If a team of 3-4 players with an MM can finish a whole mission built for 8 people, they will be summoned and tried for broken MM skill abuse and will be e-bitchslapped if found guilty", then MM is broken.

Quote:

ANet just looked the other way because PvErs NEVER complains about imba skill. Actually, PvE LOVES broken mechanics in the game. They can exploit it for faster loot drop. They will complain about underpowered skills but never imba...

Based on my post above, let's say PvE is Sparta.

There are no broken skills in Sparta.

Perkunas · Apr 09, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

I guess I have a question on how what needs balancing is determined; Do the devs base their skill balances by what is posted in the different forums or do they poll the people in game somehow? If it is based on forums, how many players actually read the forums, let alone post in them? I didn't even know about these forums for almost a year of playing, until I asked what I could cap in a certain area. One reply I got was "gw.gamewikis.com/wiki/Main_Page." Now I see the changes made to the game, where before I never really noticed them. The average player probably never notices some of the changes, and if they do, they adapt.

I guess, if I had never learned of the forums, I would have adapted and had never been called a "whiner."

manitoba1073 · Apr 09, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

to reiterate on my last post the way it should be done is very simple.

If you want to know what to nerf ask the PvE'rs

If you want to know what to buff ask the PvP'rs

that would really solve it.

combatchuck · Apr 09, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

It's pretty simple. They listen to everybody, and the most valid (or in some cases, easily fixed) complaints are addressed. I always thought it was stupid that spirits and minions give energy on Soul Reaping, since they have no Souls to Reap. However, it was an easy fix and the main problem (PvP spirit spamming) is solved.

Makkert · Apr 09, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

This is one of those topics where I have the feeling its better to close the thread asap before it gets ugly....

no more pvp vs pve please....

Buster · Apr 09, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Anet listens to both pve and pvp but they can't sit here all day scanning the forums for every single complaint people have. They actually have a job to do like getting GW:EN out on time and gettng GW2 ready for us to play

pctech65 · Apr 09, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

First off Renegade, as I said earlier in this post it wouldn't give me the poll option. Looked all over and could not find it.

As for closing the thread, not real sure why you would want to close it. People are being "fairly" civil. But I have to say guys your dragging content from the SR poll thread to this one, and that was not the intent for this thread. Please stay on topic and try not to let the recent controvery cloud your judgement when responding.

Thanx.

Deleet · Apr 09, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJudson

What I find interesting about this (comment of which I've heard many times before), is that aftering playing the game for over 1 1/2 years I rarely have seen 3-4 person PUG blowing through missions because of a MM. And I mean rarely, especially since the minion cap last summer (or spring?).

I don't know, perhaps your refering to specific builds like Sorrow's Furnace 5man farming groups that require a MM. I know I only represent a very small fraction of the player base, but it's my experience that this doesn't happen much. Actually, one of the reasons I quit running MM build in favor of Blood/Curses is that when I PUG'd a mission/quest the groups would move to fast from kill to kill not allowing me enough time to raise minions and I'd constatntly be playing catch-up.

Oh yeah, and back to the topic. I do believe Anet listens to both sides, but it would seem that most of the buffs/nerfs/changes are applied as "fixes" to PvP builds that get over-used and abused moreso than PvE.

I understand that there is specific team builds for farming and such that utilize the MM and perhaps exploit things to a degree, but it's just my experience that most PvE usage of a MM doesn't just simply blow through stuff.

Any good player can complete any Tyrian mission with 4 persons, I know. I did THK when I was bored.

Artisan · Apr 09, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

As a few people have already said...

Skill balancing focuses mostly on PvP, because it's neccesary to keep the PvP part of the game exciting, varied, and keep PvPers on their toes, which rewards the more creative players (which is why I get annoyed when people whine about skill nerfs - if one build really means that much to you, it's probably because its the only thing you know how to do - get creative! Come up with something else! Test, for God's sake!). Skill balancing in PvE, however, is only neccesary to the extent that people aren't finding gaping loopholes in the skills (often in combinations of skills which have unintended effects). Otherwise, it's not much of an issue.

On the other hand, most of the content focus is on PvE, because PvE is grounded in the content (durrr). There's just not a whole lot of PvP 'content' that can, or needs to be, added. The only things I can really think of is new maps for PvP, whereas, 'content' for PvE includes new areas, quests, missions, weapons and other drops, and more.

As for events, there seems to be a nice balance of PvP tournaments and PvE-type weekends (like extra xp weekends or drop weekends), and holiday events cater to both PvP and PvE.

Yichi · Apr 09, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan

As a few people have already said...

Skill balancing focuses mostly on PvP, because it's neccesary to keep the PvP part of the game exciting, varied, and keep PvPers on their toes, which rewards the more creative players (which is why I get annoyed when people whine about skill nerfs - if one build really means that much to you, it's probably because its the only thing you know how to do - get creative! Come up with something else! Test, for God's sake!). Skill balancing in PvE, however, is only neccesary to the extent that people aren't finding gaping loopholes in the skills (often in combinations of skills which have unintended effects). Otherwise, it's not much of an issue.

On the other hand, most of the content focus is on PvE, because PvE is grounded in the content (durrr). There's just not a whole lot of PvP 'content' that can, or needs to be, added. The only things I can really think of is new maps for PvP, whereas, 'content' for PvE includes new areas, quests, missions, weapons and other drops, and more.

As for events, there seems to be a nice balance of PvP tournaments and PvE-type weekends (like extra xp weekends or drop weekends), and holiday events cater to both PvP and PvE.

this post should be the end of this thread.

Edge Martinez · Apr 09, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan

--- Skill balancing focuses mostly on PvP, because it's neccesary to keep the PvP part of the game exciting, varied, and keep PvPers on their toes, which rewards the more creative players ---

--- Skill balancing in PvE, however, is only neccesary to the extent that people aren't finding gaping loopholes in the skills (often in combinations of skills which have unintended effects). ---

Did you get that backwards? Seems to me, it's backwards. Seems like most of the time it's PvPers who find gaping loopholes in skills, often in combinations, they own for awhile, people complain and the class/profession/skill gets nerfed.

As a result of that PvEers are treated to all kinds of exciting new changes, seemingly for no reason, that keeps them on their toes. The more creative players have no problem getting the treasure still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

This is one of those topics where I have the feeling its better to close the thread asap before it gets ugly....

It's been ugly for 3 pages if you're a PvE player.

Skuld · Apr 09, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

when it comes to balance they should only listen to pvp players cos they know the game much better than your average pve joe.

Ps:this being said by a pve player.

your average pvp player knows jack shit too, bad move

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

make it a poll and its easier to gauge what a majority thinks.

but do you want a game "balanced" by the majority? with monks that have heal party as Star Shrine, 1-hit-KO eles and minions that practically finish the mission for you while you afk? a game where everyone has inventories full of ectos and gold, and pvp that is governed entirely by /roll?

the devs do listen, but at the end of the day they do what they think is best for the game

Renegade ++RIP++ · Apr 09, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

but do you want a game "balanced" by the majority? with monks that have heal party as Star Shrine, 1-hit-KO eles and minions that practically finish the mission for you while you afk? a game where everyone has inventories full of ectos and gold, and pvp that is governed entirely by /roll?

the devs do listen, but at the end of the day they do what they think is best for the game

The title of the thread ain't do you want pve or pvp to dictate balance but how is balance percieved to be accomplished by pvp or pve. Or do you want a majority to dictate what balance should be. Since if that would be the case, all anet had to do was post every change up on hteir own website with a poll.

EDIT: why would you care if everybody would have an inventory full of ecto or not, i don't care what everybody else has, i care that i'm having fun in the game and honestly i don't give a rats behind about how much money, items, etc i have. I just outfit my chars with the things i find myself... and if they don't find anything they don't get jack.

If the result is pvp then the devs need to consider if that is actually the case and if it is not the case then look at why people consider these changes more pvp oriented and make adjustments where needed to make these perceptions more in line with their objectives.

If the result is pve, then the devs need to consider if that is actually the case and if it is not the case then look at why people consider these changes more pve oriented and make adjustments where needed to make these perceptions more in line with their objectives.

PS: seeing that the original intention of the OP was to have a poll but he couldn't find it, why hasn't one of our friendly neighbourhood mods not yet added one? in stead of posting in here in a negative manner (ergo threatening to close a post...)

Artisan · Apr 09, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

Did you get that backwards? Seems to me, it's backwards. Seems like most of the time it's PvPers who find gaping loopholes in skills, often in combinations, they own for awhile, people complain and the class/profession/skill gets nerfed.

As a result of that PvEers are treated to all kinds of exciting new changes, seemingly for no reason, that keeps them on their toes. The more creative players have no problem getting the treasure still.

It's been ugly for 3 pages if you're a PvE player.

No, my point was that it's ONLY in cases when PvE players find a way to use the skills in a way where there is a serious loophole that it will be changed because of PvE. I.E., Spirit bonding, 55ing, etc. Obviously, that kind of thing also causes a nerf in PvP. But 95% of skill changes are not so much because of that sort of issue, but rather something being moderately overpowered or underpowered, and just about all of those are a result of an issue in PvP. It doesn't matter so much for PvE, though, since it's not as evident in the PvE enviroment which skills are 'too' powerful, or 'too' weak, since every class is perfectly capable of getting through the PvE content as well as any other.

themeteor · Apr 09, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

It is simple they listen to the people who complain hardest for longest and as there is a lot of content to keep PvErs happy and very little to complain about we don't shout until something gets changed as change scares people.

PvPrs get a lot to moan about, we you get owned by a team with heroes due to imbalance it's going to annoy you and your going to complain and if Anet thinks that the complaints are valid they will change something.

conclusion: PvPrs moan the loudest, and are therefore grab the most attention. Stuff like events are just cool and areanet staff most likely also enjoy them so the get done.

cthulhu reborn · Apr 09, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

When it comes to skill balance I think Anet watches the PvP side more for an obvious reason. It's linked to competitions and real life money prizes. So there is a responsability there.

Of course, when you change skills they affect PvE aswell and for some reason, that is unclear to me, the devs don't seem to grasp the PvE game as much when we talk about the effects of skill changes.

Where they spend a lot of time putting together content for PvE (at which they do a great job mind you) it seems that understanding how RPG'ers play PvE is more difficult to understand. Still, it would seem to me that when you change a primary attribute it can only have a big effect and so it still baffles me how they've come to the decision to change it to this point.

Even in a fantasy game there should be some basic logic. If you think about the term 'soul reaping' the better question is what is a living soul? It is infinately more logical that SR works whenever a living soul comes free to be siphoned for energy. It then is not so unlogical to say that undead creatures and specifically minions and then spirits are rather fleeting and cannot yield as much energy or none at all.

Hence the idea of not getting energy from spirits and minions or in much lesser degree would fit an in-game logic much more than a 5 second recurrence.

Simple truth is that if you want to limit the output of energy gain by SR there should also be the realisation that necro builds in general work the way they do because of it and that the couple of builds that exploit it in the PvP setting are in no way the only builds that need a decent energy return.

MM's got help so why not the others? Make vampiric bite cost 10 and vampiric gaze 5, well of blood can be cheaper, just to name some expamples....but then there will be consequences in other combination builds...

My point is, something will happen and they do listen to PvE'ers in the end but they don't always check what we think about it first nor whether the effects go to far and maybe that's why there's a culture now that us PvE'ers feel a bit like guinea pigs and have 'learned' to scream about things.

ScorpiusX · Apr 09, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Ooohhh!!

IMO the devs listen to both sides equally overall, but for different issues they'll listen to different parts of the community. Game balance is so much more important in PvP that they must listen to that portion of the community more on that issue, but should a change they make based on this make an aspect of PvE genuinely unplayable they will rethink it and find the middle ground. Should an aspect of PvE that is so glaringly broken that even PvE players scream about it occur they will listen to them, should it make something imbalanced in PvP they'll listen and find the middle ground.

If the devs don't give more content to PvE then their player base will drift off to other games, they listen in this case by seeing how many people take part in the events they plan, how many sales of new chapters there are. Do PvP players want new content or do they want the content they've got to work as intended ie player skillz rulez over I've been playing 1 month longer than this corpse at my feet or WTF I am actually the most skillfull PvP player going but you and your exploit just butchered me, in other words a level playing field for all on maps that work with win conditions that make sense and aren't exploitable. And its true unfortunately that when new chapters are released the PvP community has a major migraine because there are new skills, new exploits, its not like they can just say hey I'm not going to buy a chapter thats going to cause these headaches because that in itself would lead to an exploit, people who did buy the new chapter would have an unfair advantage, and these new chapters will lead to new game balancing, which means that there'd be more screams from our side of the fence ie PvE. But when all is said and done Anet will listen to both side better if we just learn to have mature debates to sort out the issues that affect our GWs.

ScorpiusX

EternalTempest · Apr 09, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

They listen to both sides and attempt to do a balancing act.
It's been getting harder for them.

In Eyes of the North, PvE is getting 50 (Pve Only) skills in addition to skills that work in both.

With the concept design of PvE, PvP (mist/world battle), and "Structured" PvP,
This also scream more of a skill separation of the 1st two from the latter.

Jeff Spain in interviews have mention how this game is for both pve/pvp and admitted that they try there best to please both crowds and it's difficult at times.

moriz · Apr 09, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

according to kestrel's WoC show, izzy (the head skill balancer) will balance skills with regards to GvG only. however, if a skill change will completely destroy PvE as we know it, he'll try to work something else out.