Curse

Ensign · Apr 11, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I like this update pretty much across the board. The only one that's kinda questionable is Spiteful Spirit, but with the Nightfall wave of powerful elites it might still be ok. Virtually everything else was great, a bunch of small tweaks to skills that needed them.

I'm really happy seeing the changes to Mirror of Disenchantment, Crippling Slash, and Brutal Weapon. The quick turnaround on those skills, balance-wise, is a good sign for the game's future.

Even more skills can get energy cost bumps from a hit to Soul Reaping - Feast of Corruption, for starters. I don't think you can do a straight reduction on Animate Bone Fiend, though, at 15 energy it would be straight up better than all of the other minions. Hell, I haven't seen anyone switching out of Fiends aven after the hit to Soul Reaping, because it's still worth all that energy. If it went to 15, it'd have to pick up a longish recharge, and I don't think that's the direction you want to go.

Peace,
-CxE

Sir Skullcrasher · Apr 11, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I like this update!

Arkantos · Apr 11, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

the Soul reaping nerf was needed

Just because it was needed doesn't mean the way ANet did it was right.

Quote:

LMAO at BoA too ^^ great thing, today marks the end of this noobish abuse, true sins are happy

Marks the end of BoA abuse, marks the beggining of another IAS used by sins.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 11, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Soul Reaping nerf was NOT needed. Just because Soul Reaping was being exploited by spirit spamming in PvP, they had to nerf it. I mean spirits still give energy, just not as fast. This fixed NOTHING.

Sins are not useless, just because one overpowering pvp cookie cutter build was nerf, doesnt mean that the class is worthless. It merely means you have to be patient for the next cookie cutter build that can be used by any brain-dead, no talent Random Arena/Alliance Battle Assassin. It was like IWAY from HA, it had to disappear because it took no skill to play that build.

Arkantos · Apr 11, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Soul Reaping nerf was NOT needed. Just because Soul Reaping was being exploited by spirit spamming in PvP, they had to nerf it. I mean spirits still give energy, just not as fast. This fixed NOTHING.

Sorry, but it was needed. If you haven't noticed yet, lots of the skill balances were based on the skill (attribute in this case) being exploited in PvP.

Quote:

Sins are not useless, just because one overpowering pvp cookie cutter build was nerf, doesnt mean that the class is worthless. It merely means you have to be patient for the next cookie cutter build that can be used by any brain-dead, no talent Random Arena/Alliance Battle Assassin. It was like IWAY from HA, it had to disappear because it took no skill to play that build.

Who said sins are useless?

Mercury Angel · Apr 11, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

This thread has undergone a signficant cleanup, taking out a lot of flamebait, personal attacks, trolling, flames, off-topicness, and a number of posts that did not contribute much beyond responding the the aforementioned.

There is absolutely no need to make these changes, and the people that disagree with your opinion, personal. Argue the points or don't post, but other posters are not generally up for discussion.

It took a fair amount of work to clear the garbage from this thread, and if a problem arises of the magnitude that double digit posts have to be removed again, it's just going to be closed in the future. Keep the arguments civil.

tyche7 · Apr 11, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

This update is good but what about bone fiends??

Spura · Apr 11, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

I'm surprised, as a necromancer yourself, you would say something like this. This is like throwing a half eaten chicken leg in the face of a starving dog.

Hardly solves the problem IMO because Lord knows EVERY Necro runs only SS build in PvE/PvP.

Maybe because Zinger knows that SR nerf isn't a big deal. 10 SR and a death every 5 sec = 6 energy pips.

And for that we have to endure all this crying.

ensoriki · Apr 11, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siva arwen

Your post it was already clear enough because of BSS is too good thats why you use it right?

No, not everyone goes to abuse skills like hell as you would interpret.

I like the golden skills far more, enchants are easier to keep than hexes.

However in pve for about 6 places I use BSS because its rather helpful my heroes for some areas are hex dependent so I bring BSS because I know it shines better there.

Now with this BSS is just there.

Only purpose now is poison, which isnt bad, but its not that great -_-

Qual · Apr 11, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Better they fix something that was a little too strong right away rather than taking their sweet time to clue in. It still has the longer duration which is more than it had before.

Do I need to say Conjure Flame, it has longer duration, better dmg bonus and the dmg bonus does not disappear if you are under the effect of an enchantment. Brutal weapon was in need of the buff...

[KotL]Mjolnir · Apr 11, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Well after finally playing my Necro after the update (including the one on the 10th) I have to say its nowhere near as bad as some people are making out, if anything needs to be changed the only thing I would do is reduce Bone Fiend to 15 Energy rather than 25. SoLS is also helpful but if people are still having problems then theres nothing anyone can do to help but recommend more practice.

Racthoh · Apr 11, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

Do I need to say Conjure Flame, it has longer duration, better dmg bonus and the dmg bonus does disappear if you are under the effect of an enchantment. Brutal weapon was in need of the buff...

Brutal weapon can be thrown on anyone, maintained on multiple allies, doesn't restrict the prefix of your weapon, can't be striped, and isn't affected by AL.

Cherno · Apr 11, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Well they made reduction to casting costs for Necro skills which indicates they have absolutely no intention of changing SR back. Instead of doing that or changing it so that you don't gain energy from the death of spirits or minions, they are prepared to make many changes to casting costs which will have god knows what impact. So thanks for having us do the polls, etc to have us just go through the motions for something you aren't going to change.

What makes me laugh the most is how they said the change to soul reaping was to bring it in line with how "it was originally inteded". 2 years later??? That's the type of thing you change immediately. It is the primary mechanic of the necromancer, the intention is known from base design. At least be honest about why you make the change and don't try to spin it off. You know you are going to piss people off with the change, don't compound the problem with silly spin.

ensoriki · Apr 11, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Cherno thats not true A-net has been thinking of trying to Change Soul-reaping for sometime. They thought it was a somewhat overpowered Attribute at the time and is 1 of the reason it has a few skills.

If Soul reaping gives you energy for each time something dies and you put killing spells in it, it becomes a murderous attribute and you can dump everything else into survival, if you put energy management upon E-management its overkill.

Now how would you change soul reaping immediatly when a large of your fanbase wound resent you. Bout time they grew the balls.

Miral · Apr 12, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

you do realise that other classes also have the issues of CHANGING their build once in a while? to fit in energy management and such?

yeah?

try doing the same on your necro maybe mmkay?

everyone always had to adapt to skill changes or game mechanics changing, so why do you guys have problems with it too?

i dunno, but in my opinion you are all just too lazy to modify your builds so they work again.

and well, you fail to see that neither SS or MM are actually decent to use in PVP, and you don't really seem to get that the skill balance also contains PVP.

You do realize that soul reaping IS the necro version of energy management? That this attribute serves no other purpose besides energy management? And then you do realize that this energy management is what was nerfed? Let's compare it to a couple primaries that I think work good in the grand scheme of things.
Leadership. it makes a bunch of skills work better, and it basically makes chants cast for free in a full group (and with 5e chants, you actually gain net energy),
Critical Strikes. it makes a bunch of skills work better, it increases the chance of getting critical hits, and it returns energy on each critical hit. and again, with some skills like Critical Strike, results in a net energy gain.
Mysticism. it makes a bunch of skills (including the overpowered avatars and a bunch of nice cheap healing) work better, and gives you energy and health whenever an enchantment ends on you.
All of these have a "gives x energy when y happens" effect like soul reaping, without a timer, and with the added benefit of useful skills in their lines.
Now, let's take a look at Soul Reaping's current status.
it makes like... 2 skills work better. it gives you energy when something dies, half energy when a spirit dies. and once you gain energy from soul reaping, you cannot reap again for 5 seconds. This means that if a spirit dies and you get (half) energy from it, you still cannot gain energy for 5 seconds, and therefore only recieved half of the attribute's bonus for that 5 second span. Soul reaping is now the ONLY attribute with an arbitrary timer. It was perfectly balanced before, it was energy management, good energy management, and ONLY energy management. instead of taking a free skill like glyph of lesser energy, necros invested a bunch of attribute points into soul reaping.
just because energy management isn't done in the same way doesn't mean its overpowered. My monk can go forever without running out of energy, and he doesn't use energy management at all! my paragon can go forever without running out of energy, and that is because of HIS primary. my ranger can go forever without running out of energy, again... his primary. my assassin? yep, primary. in fact, my only charcter that really runs into energy problems is my warrior, and that's fine because warriors are super powerful without needing a bunch of energy. And now, after the SR changes: my necro, when I get shafted by dying spirits.

MrTickle · Apr 12, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Now put Reckless Haste back to 10e cost!!!!!

Siva arwen · Apr 12, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

No, not everyone goes to abuse skills like hell as you would interpret.

I like the golden skills far more, enchants are easier to keep than hexes.

However in pve for about 6 places I use BSS because its rather helpful my heroes for some areas are hex dependent so I bring BSS because I know it shines better there.

Now with this BSS is just there.

Only purpose now is poison, which isnt bad, but its not that great -_-

Why do you care so much if you only use BSS in PvE? Did the decreased of 10dmg on a single atk skill is really affected your PvE that much?

Miral · Apr 12, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siva arwen

Why do you care so much if you only use BSS in PvE? Did the decreased of 10dmg on a single atk skill is really affected your PvE that much?

one could argue that a 10dmg difference is even more important in pve than pvp, but I would say it is equally so. 10 damage can be the difference between finishing a mission with masters reward and wiping, in some instances.

Dusk_ · Apr 12, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

You do realize that soul reaping IS the necro version of energy management? That this attribute serves no other purpose besides energy management? And then you do realize that this energy management is what was nerfed? Let's compare it to a couple primaries that I think work good in the grand scheme of things.

So you're saying that Necros deserve to have passive unlimited energy that requires 0 skill and 0 effort?

Meanwhile, look at Elementalists. Guess what their primary does. *GASP* Energy management! It doesn't even solve energy issues either, it just delays them. They still need to take skills.

Quote:

My monk can go forever without running out of energy, and he doesn't use energy management at all! my paragon can go forever without running out of energy, and that is because of HIS primary. my ranger can go forever without running out of energy, again... his primary. my assassin? yep, primary. in fact, my only charcter that really runs into energy problems is my warrior, and that's fine because warriors are super powerful without needing a bunch of energy. And now, after the SR changes: my necro, when I get shafted by dying spirits.

Your monk doesn't spam high energy spells non-stop. That's energy management, if you didn't realize it.

Your other classes aren't spellcasters. Funny that you avoid mentioning Elementalists, Ritualists and Mesmers, you know, classes that are spellcasters.

squirty · Apr 12, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Not enough damaging nerfs to the Mesmer methinks Anet,

Try nerfing all of the domination line next time.

/sarcasm