Curse

ensoriki · Apr 20, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I' started with prophecies and went through factions into Nightfall

That was Christmas of 2005, I never beat prophecies the professions were mostly boring (save ranger). I beat factions with my sin and almost have him through NIghtfall now.

Moneys all ways been tight with my sin because well, I tried starting new chars to keep it fresh, I was new at the class so spent money awkwardly now I have full 70 armor but I have to make a PVP exclusive char if I want to pvp because of money. Though in a guild I can't help anyone in PVE with a PVP char.

I notice this on my Rit, on my Derv and on my soon to be gone Para.

In PVE the phrase 'GLF Nuker, MM,Tank,Monk,Interrupter' are the only things you will basically see, interrupter being the least wanted.

Mesmers however are not wanted mostly even if they can interrupt as there considered to be unable to do anything else.

Sins are not wanted because of ...idiots ruining the name. Rits I don't understand there lack of want...

Dervishes can tank far better than warriors with there 4 e regen, 5 extra energy and Enchants, but there are seldom wanted compared to warriors.

Paragons are....can we call them Mules, or will A-net nerf that for them aswell.

With Hard mode Its easier to get some nice pretty weapons on your low level chars now...thats nice. Drop rates suck now

And if your not a Core class your generally not wanted right? So if your a sin you Mostly henched unless you had Guildies, same with RT, Para and probably most Dervishes. So with Henchies taking drops and stuff it probably sucks even more for them. There not considered Primary farmers like Warrior and Monk, or Dual farmers like Necro and Ranger.
There just their.

The Transition from PVE to PVP is harder for these characters because Money is tight for skills.

In Nightfall theres lots of Block so Dervishes either bring a skill to fix that or grin and bare it.

In Factions things exploud, spirits get nuked and assassins get killed because they were killing.

Did A-net seem to give Core classes alot more favor than the others?

ca_aok · Apr 20, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Mesmers however are not wanted mostly even if they can interrupt as there considered to be unable to do anything else.

Mesmers are quite good, however in PvE, there is almost always a class that does their role better...
-Interupter? BHA Ranger, Spinal Shivers Necro
-Domination? Curses Necro (SS = Empathy+Backfire on steroids)
-Degen? Burning Arrow ranger
-E-denial? Perhaps the only thing they can do, and not that useful since mobs usually die fast without it.
Then there's the fact that PvE up to this point has been about massing AOE damage to blow through mobs as fast as possible, which doesn't really fit in with the mesmer play style. With hard mode they should see a bit more use.

Quote:

Rits I don't understand there lack of want...

Same deal as mesmers:
-Healing? Monks are better for everything except regen.
-Channeling? Elementalists have access to strong skills as well, many AOE, and a much larger energy pool, along with better support skills.
-Communing? Spirit spam doesn't work so well when you move group to group and constantly have to wait on their long recharge.
-Spawning power has been nerfed into a garbage primary attribute, making rits better as a secondary with only a few exceptions.

Quote:

Dervishes can tank far better than warriors with there 4 e regen, 5 extra energy and Enchants, but there are seldom wanted compared to warriors.

Regen is garbage for "tanking" (see--> Mending), enchantments are much more easily stripped/shattered compared to stances or shouts, and warriors have a higher natural AL, not to mention a more consistant DPS. Dervish attack skills cost a decent bit of energy and take a while to recharge compared to warrior attack skills.

Quote:

Paragons are....can we call them Mules, or will A-net nerf that for them aswell.

Paragons got the nerf stick because all paragon parties are too powerful in PvP. Right now, they aren't really good for much of anything, since monks outclass most shouts/chants, and spear mastery doesn't have many good skills. Only their offensive shouts retain much usefulness at all, making them rather one-dimensional.

ANET doesn't favor the core classes (since they keep pushing them), but the game mechanics certainly do. Core classes have defined roles whereas the new classes are either over-specialized to the point of gimmickry, or are weaker mixes of multiple core classes.

lightblade · Apr 20, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Blackout is something non-Mesmer can't do.

In Hard mode, where everything get double cast rate, you can't interrupt anything even with BHA. Blackout however, bypasses that and does a total shut-down.

Boris De Pig · Apr 21, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Blackout is something non-Mesmer can't do.

In Hard mode, where everything get double cast rate, you can't interrupt anything even with BHA. Blackout however, bypasses that and does a total shut-down.

Well, I disagree with this post since I just vanquished a few areas with heroes and Margrid running a BHA build. Seemed to work just fine to keep the foes dazed.

Coming back to the OP, i've played a 'sin through every campaign. Factions first, then Nightfall and finishing with Prophecies. There is very little 'sin love so I ended up hero/henching the entire of Nightfall and about half of Factions (My guild mates helped me through Prophecies).

What has this experience taught me? Well, firstly, having to constantly play with the AI controlled hench and later heroes, it's taught me to be a bloody good PvE player. 3 Protector titles (one of them entirely hero/henched) make you damned good at beating the PvE AI.

It's hilarious now standing around in low(ish) level outposts looking for pugs, wearing my KoaBD title with pride and getting called a 'noob 'sin' and actually getting kicked from groups...

Gate of Madness, any of you struggled with this? Well I now 7-man hero/hench it on my 'sin with a 'parked' character paying for the privelige of a no-fuss masters run. I've run a 7-man hero/hench on Gates of Madness, killed abaddon again and gone back to the outpost to STILL find the group that kicked me stuck there blindly refusing to accept an assassin into their group. Rather than pleasing me it makes me a little sad.

Still, hard mode has rung the changes. Hanging around in Raisu Palace and seeing people spamming 'GLF 'sin, then we go for HM Masters run' has pleased me immensely. Hard mode shiro on my 'sin died in 1:43, and on my warrior 1:32 (different groups for both - and tbh the warrior did a little better).

The point I'm rambling around is yes, non-core classes are very specialized, but if you learn to play them, and play them well there is no reason why you can't accomplish everything that anyone else has done - you just have to invent your own methods as you go along since usually there isn't anyone to help guide you.

BdP

KANE OG · Apr 21, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Yes, they only favor core classes..... unless you're a solo farmer. Then they hate you no matter what.

KANE

crime.mob · Apr 21, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Ha, my main is a paragon, and no one said they were good at pvp! they've been nerfed an unprecidented amount, and i find groups ALOT more in pve than pvp (b/c most people know that pve doesn't always have to be "perfect")

because almost every paragon skill has been nerfed, everyone thinks that they are useless (which i wouldn't blame them for), even though they have many *specific* group roles left that good paragons know about. Unfortunately, with so many paras in Nightfall our name has been ruined... or something because i can't get a group!

Mostly because when looking for a group, people look for roles they find as "essential", and paragon plays "support", and no one knows what "support" means, heck paragons don't even know what they mean when they use that word, so they are avoided (though paragons can play a plethora of roles, but may not be the best at them unless you have a really good build. They can't heal like a monk, they can't do pressure like a warrior, they can't spike like a sin, they can't battery like a necro, but they can sure do a little bit of it all)

-- about the other core classes, sins are most people see them as spikers, and spikes are useless in pve (mostly)

dervs... well actually dervs ARE enlisted, as much as or more (b/c theres more of them) than warriors. Though more specialized groups will probably choose a warrior over them because dervs have less pressure (though they are the only class with all AoE melee damage)

rits... who doesn't like rits? ok healing rits are definately disliked if the group could get a monk instead (which is VERY unlikely, so the rt is taken), and everyone knows they can spawn spirits which is almost as good as a minion master (though spirit spammers probably won't be taken in missions where you move a lot), and they can do weapon skills and all this stuff. They would take a rt over a ranger, definately, mabye over an ele and necro (because rts are harder to find than necros), warriors are dispendable... really if you had to choose between an rt and another class the only class that would win would be a minion master or a monk.

-Loki- · Apr 21, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Blackout is something non-Mesmer can't do.

In Hard mode, where everything get double cast rate, you can't interrupt anything even with BHA. Blackout however, bypasses that and does a total shut-down.

You aren't very good at interrupting then. I can interrupt fine still most of the time as a ranger without BHA, the only problem is you can't carry enough interrupts to really make a difference.

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

ANet doesn't favor classes in PvE, players do.

Its player ignorance that can't see past the obvious use of another tank, rather than an Illusion or Domination Mesmer.

Its probably a syndrome of MMOs in general, where the playerbase has been schooled to believe that certain classes with "weird" abilities aren't as useful as the regular, git-r-done type of classes, such Echo-Mending Whammos!

My problem is my favorite classes to play are sins, rits and dervs, and pretty much no one wants them in a party. My sin is approaching 3mil experience, and I have 20 or so builds saved for him with a variety of different secondaries, and can tailor my build to suit any party make-up, AND I don't die hardly at all, yet you'll never get a PUG to believe you.

I pretty much schooled my entire guild on how to solo farm though hehe.

Rusty Deth · Apr 21, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

I love having a spirit spammer cause its one more thing for the bad guys to attack instead of the rest of party.

In fact I never leave without a rit. But it all depends on what you bring. I always bring an assortment of spirits so you got a bit of everything.

I never rely on one class to do one thing ( except for the monk). Thats what secondaries are for, the more you mix it up, the more effective your party is.

Calluette Hanuette · Apr 21, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

Mesmers are quite good, however in PvE, there is almost always a class that does their role better...
-Interupter? BHA Ranger, Spinal Shivers Necro
-Domination? Curses Necro (SS = Empathy+Backfire on steroids)
-Degen? Burning Arrow ranger
-E-denial? Perhaps the only thing they can do, and not that useful since mobs usually die fast without it.

Well, I've always found a mesmer is the best for the job in PvE to many different things.

Degen?
[skill]Mantra of Persistence[/skill][skill]Images of Remorse[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill][skill]Conjure Nightmare[/skill][skill]Phantom Pain[/skill][skill]Inspired Enchantment[/skill][skill]ether feast[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]
You can kill things with pure degen with just one combo, you can replace auspicious incantaion/Conjure Nightmare with Conjure Phantasm and a free slot for something if you'd like, spread the degen all around, and energy never really seems to go down. Also, deep wound and a bit of extra damage is nice at time. :. Along with fast res. that can be used multiple times, healing and taking away enchantments.

Interrupter?
Well, we don't need to wait for the arrow to strike, its much faster and instant, also we get energy or can do much more damage with out interrupts. Not to mention interrupt a whole group of enemies with one cast. Better then those interrupters, who can probably be used for better things then what they are.. >>; Also, power block is the best interrupt ever.. "D

Domination?
Not a fan of domination.. >>; I found it to be somewhat useless, but Empathy does more then SS and backfire does a whole lot more... >>; Also, they are not elites. Which allow you to stick a better elite in there. :. Also with fast casting, you can put in those two much faster then you can put in ss...And usually, it will be dead before the skills even end, so no need to worry about the recharge. Not to mention you can also use high-damaging spikes with empathy and backfire. :.

E-denial?
Not useful? >>; It can save you from some big battles or really long ones, and we can also stick many more things into the skill bar with e-denial to help the team...

Not to mention we can be nukers<Much faster too, Norgu even beats Sousuke and Zhed at nuking> and many other things.

Just to say... >>;
---------------------
Anyway, I found that Ritualists can be very useful they even beat most monks at healing and protection, and dervish are better then tanks for me<Most tanks I've found are...bad at it... >>; >, and I've actually met very good assassins<The team I got masters with abbaddon, beat him in under 10 minutes due to extreme damage not to mention noone died or even took very much damage..., was me(Mesmer),rit, sin, sin, sin, dervish, dervish, dervish>. The only thing I don't see is Paragons...the only paragons I've ever seen are in pvp, which die really quickly and don't do much of anything...other then try to be a ranger and fail... >>;

SeraCombi · Apr 21, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Seemingly, you'd want all introduced classes on a level playing field.

THe newer, non-core classes: esp. Rits, Paras, and Dervs, have been nerfed after release because they were considered too strong. A word I have seen used is "broken." Problem is, the only way for these new and unusual classes to become "core" classes--to be used and valued as much as the original Prophecies set -- is for them to stand out and perform a strong and equally useful function.

If a Derv was as powerful as he was on release, ppl would be calling for one as much as they do an MM. Same thing with Paras and Rits. But because of the nerfs, these newer classes will always be secondary, and support players.

My point is that a new class NEEDS to be strong ("broken") so that it can also be considered "core" and called on with the same frequency as others.

IlikeGW · Apr 21, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I think players favor core classes if they know them better. It's easier to put together a team you understand than one you don't. There's nothing wrong with sins, dervishes, ritualists, paragons, or mesmers, but do you have enough experienced people in the group to check their build? Usually, in my experience, not.

DeBron · Apr 21, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

"-Healing? Monks are better for everything except regen."

Ritualists consistently heal for high amounts and their heals are far better for dealing with spikes.

Also, Ritualists don't have to spread their points over two attributes to make their heals effective (healing prayers / divine favor).

Healing prayers has always been overrated. Protection prayers is almost always a better choice in the long run; that's where a monk really shines.

There's always a place for ritualists in a party.

Pakana · Apr 21, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

No, it isn't only the PUGs' fault the core classes are favored. It's also the game planning that makes "5 men farming team" (2 monks, tank, fire elementalist and SS-necro) succesful everywhere. My finger points at Arenanet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calluette Hanuette

Well, I've always found a mesmer is the best for the job in PvE to many different things.
Interrupter?
Well, we don't need to wait for the arrow to strike, its much faster and instant, also we get energy or can do much more damage with out interrupts. Not to mention interrupt a whole group of enemies with one cast. Better then those interrupters, who can probably be used for better things then what they are.. >>; Also, power block is the best interrupt ever.. "D

Exactly. When Cry of Frustration hits the team, you always hear "I hate mesmers!" from your team members (yet do they invite a mesmer in their team?). Power Block can shut down one caster, and you can move to another. I don't sign the statement a ranger is better in interrupting. Althought active interrupting against mobs was always a bit hard, and now very hard. With my connection speed next to impossible.

Domination is a lot more than Empathy and Backfire! It's the regular interruption and disabling attribute line!

What I find funny, is that people compare SS with Empathy. Empathy does higher damage, but only affects a single foe. However, empathy is not an elite. Empathy is a side skill many mesmers have, and it's not the only reason to take a mesmer. (BTW: how good is empathy now in hard mode? It now does double the damage it used to do! That's some serious kill-skill now).

E-denial is useless in PvE. Mobs either don't need energy, or have so huge energy regen they never run out.

Series · Apr 21, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I wish they would fix the paragon. I have all Paragon skills known and literally only about 15 of the 75 are useful in any scenario. And they aren't even *that* useful! Just make it so all shouts have the following property:

"Shout. All non-spirit non-paragon allies within earshot..."

Every single (untargeted- targeted shouts can affect anyone) shout. So that shouts have a uniform effect as opposed to them having weird effects. Untargeted shouts will always affect the caster even if it's a paragon. Done. Paragon parties are no longer overpowered and the paragon can be buffed.

Marth Reynolds · Apr 21, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

This more on topic about the pug favor then anet favor, face it every proffession has their use but not everyone knows the use of a certain proffession.

However i do agree on the paragon being very gimped at this time, the skills they have make them alone the black sheep of the gw classes, not to mention some of teh nerfs they got

ensoriki · Apr 21, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Some nice posts in here 0_o, was half expecting a flame.

I have to take my sin through Henchies. A-net keeps trying to make some Pug friendly by kind of forcing the idea (Loot scaling,giving henchies lame ass skill bars) but if no one wants to take me, than there just nerfing me for the sake of nerfing.

In Hard Mode mesmers are more wanted because opponents can now machine gun you with spells, but a mesmer isn't gonna catch them without Daze or lengthening Casting time x2 with that 1 skill auspicious incantation I think its called.

Empathy and Signet of midnight work, but theres an abudance of melee enemies in missions and in places like Eternal grove (Im not doing this in hard mode F that) a mesmer can't hex em all.

An Assassins Promise Assassin can machine gun enemies aswell and with an IAS its very quick However in Hard Mode it's not that smart to bring, and so sins fall into 1 less build to use, but enemies are strong and if they don't kill them fast there dead.

Paragons are, fodder?

Dervishes can take a lot of damage, they have armor insignias to help and Conviction + windwalker I think its called gives them 94 armor I dunno Im stupid. Than they have enchants to boost HP recover HP at 50% whatever.

Why couldn't A-net make them more appealing however? It's not like A-net went and put 3 warriors in a mob so that the dervish can run up attract all 3 and then scythe whack em. Or that they spread enemies apart but still has like 5 enemies in a mob so a sin can go attacking without gaining attention.

Its not like the Paragon...is good.

And It's not like Spirits can last long enough to protect anything for more than 2 seconds.