Curse

Blame the Monks · Apr 11, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Anet needs to sell games -- they can't eliminate broken classes or maps completely, no matter how conceptually flawed they are. Likewise, they can't devote the resources to reworking major aspects of the game to fix the fundamental flaws. Finally, I am convinced most of the devs lacks a genuine understanding of the metagame at a top 100 level or beyond.

The original GW game had a lot of really good conceptual work put into it. Its a shame business timelines and the pressure to release new gimmicky content undermined so much of that. GW barely touched its potential as a competitive game, and even as is it is one of the best competitive games on the market. But it could have been so much more.

Our best hope is GW2 and WoW until then, which is a real shame.

Firestone · Apr 12, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

While I agree that spawning power and communing aren't the most useful attributes, I disagree that ritualists should be deemed 'a wasted class'.
Recently Rits got a lot of buff mainly to channeling and restoration, this has resulted to a lot of teams using ritualists as a support 'buffer' character, which I think is a pretty interesting thing.

Spirits are a broken mechanic to begin with, I'm glad A.net pretty much nerfed rit spirit spammers into the ground as they were simply too effective for the amount of 'skill' required. (Passive defense shouldn't be that strong)
A better change would be making spirits easier to counter (for instance by weakening them by a big amount) but fact is the nerf did was it was intended to do.

Spawning and communing are mostly linked to each other. You can't have 1 without the other to be effective.
With the nerf that came to target this, effectively 2 out of 4 attribute lines are nerfed. Tell me, which other professions that you know have a pretty much dead 2 attributes.

Like you say, having channeling / restoration line buffed, ritualist isn't that much of redundant class anymore. but now, I play mainly as a wannabe ranger Rt/R with splinter barrage.

-----

Spirits isn't a broken mechanism to begin with. there are a lot of counters to it now. I admit, it used to be broken when factions was first released. but now, this is not the case.

Eg. spiritual pain (which got nerfed), unnatural signet (which can kill a spirit in 3 sec), consume soul, gaze of fury, etc... even a meteor / fire nuking spell can pretty much kill spirits clustered together, rendering the spirit rit. spammer useless for 45 - 60sec. coupled with the fact that most spirits takes 25e, and 5 sec cast time, 60 sec recharge.. i dun find them overpowered at all.

but even then, the class got nerfed and nv got buffed again for those attributes.

Like displacement spirit, they die pretty fast, cost 15e to cast, 3 sec cast time, and a 45 sec recharge (which dies in about 5 sec)...

this compared to gvg 3 monks who can spam ageis in chain, which take 15e to cast, 2 sec cast time and a 30 sec rechg... (which can last a constant 10 sec) both are passive defense skills ... which brings us to the question... isn't all skills are supposed to be balanced, and function about the same regardless of which skills you bring? Apparently there is a double standard being practised.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Disagree completely, the only skill that really got nerfed into being unplayable is energizing finale, this skill was simply ridiculous, I agree completely with the nerf. Paragons are still very potent in both support and damage output. Motivation did take a hit overall, but once again, it was mostly passive defense that got nerfed.

Apparently, u do not play paragon much.

Incoming is pretty dead now. Only the monsters that did not got its skill updated still use them.
just in cast you have no idea what it does now, it last a pretty decent 3 sec, 10e to cast, and a 20 sec recharge. this is to "Prevent paraway". Since this skill was deemed overpowered in 6v6, (anet made it 6x 3 = 18 sec in all). now that gvg is reverted to 8v8, i'm wondering whether they will nerf it again to be 2 sec duration to make sure paraway is 100% dead. (8 x 2 = 16 sec).

These aren't the only skills that got whacked hard.

Apparently, skills such as They on Fire (10energy for a 10 sec skill ... 3 cast and your pretty much a gone case), Stand Your Ground are pretty much dead. In cooperative mish such as vinz square, they apparently can't be used for your allies too.

I don't get it why anet doesn't like to change it so that it target non-spirits only. instead of nerfing the skill outright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

PvE mesmers aside I disagree, I would like to see inspiration unnerfed as well but the nerfs to the most commonly used Domination skills were justified and don't harm mesmers that much at all.

Diversion is simply too good to be spammed all the time, now you exactly have to put some thought into using it, instead of spamming it on recharge.

If you think mesmers are subpar in PvE you simply have no idea what you're talking about.

what do u mean its justified, and don't harm mesmer?
Let's look at the skills. energy surge -> area to nearby... Reason? To promote people to use other elites (such as matra of recovery).

skills like diversion, guilt, shame etc are all nerfed because they wanted to promote this skill, and instead of nerfing this skill only, they outright nerfed the other skills that are spammed commonly with MoR. From a 9 sec -> 6 sec duration, I think its pretty unfair to other non-MoR users.

Now the skills are pretty much dead if you don't use MoR with it. Talk about promoting diversity lol..

Sometimes i wonder whther anet is the cow-herder and we are the stupid cows.

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Mesmer are subpar in PVE mainly due to the holy-trinity relationship. In PVE, nothing beats killing fast and getting loot. Rinse and repeat. Monk, Tanker and nuker ele.. what a classic combination

Who the hell have time to wait for mesmer to degen 1 monster at a time, or to even shutdown the monsters. Shaming the monsters, Diversion their skills? LoL. They even nerfed energy surge to nearby effect, decreasing the viablity of mesmer PVE. For PVE ... time spent in killing > everything else

My PVE mesmer uses fast cast nuking, with MoR to get into groups. Or simply so that i can kill faster. its sad when such a elegant class got seriously nerfed by anet... now this class is deemed to be pvp viable, pve worthless.

-----------

Note: I am talking using my experience with these charcs.

I do own a mesmer, ritualist, and paragon as my commonly played charcs.
I do have a monk, ranger, necro, which i use from time to time... but i still prefer to play those 3 as i like playing interesting charcs, with uniques skillbars.

This game reminds me of Diablo 2. When it got released, its like 1.08 version.. Golden Age of GW... By the time GW:Factions got released, it went to 1.09 ... inbalanced game... Now, the game feels like 1.10 version... Lots of Nerfed skills, Lots of reworks on skills descriptions.... Probably when GW:EN is released, this game is going to be like 1.11 version... Pretty much dead.

Master Ketsu · Apr 12, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Except unlike magic, Arenanet cant break their game into 4 playtypes ( 1, 1.5, ext, 2).

Magic nerfs are even worse then Anet nerfs, how ? They simply ban the card. Anet has to nerf the skill because nerfing the skill is a better idea then banning.

And how is the metagame being restarted ANY different from when a block gets pushed out of type 2 ? It isnt.

Anet nerfs > MTG Autob&.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 12, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Does Anet know how to properly balance a metagame?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

*ahem*

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Saelfaer · Apr 12, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The main issue with skill nerfs in GWs, is the fact that they are driven by PvP.

If someone in PvP gets shirty about a skill, and can't be bothered to create a skill set to counter-act it, they start winging to Anet.

Then every other PvP player joins in, until Anet just caves in and nerfs the skill. They dont care about the effects on PvE or areas like FA.

GWs is a primarily PvP driven and influenced game and its unfair on us PvE players who have to endure the side-effects.

this is hilareous, so what you actually are saying is that arenanet favors half of the comunity over the other half? seriously man, that is impossible.

arenanet would never do that, if a skill is out of balance it will be fixed, if a skill is underused it will be buffed, and this constantly with the 2 sides in vision, so no skill gets totally useless on 1 side due to changes to make it balanced on the other. no mather where the initial idea of change came from,
beeing it highly overusing the skill in pvp, or the skill makes a certain build invincible in pve, .... that does not matter, if it needs changes, it will get them.

stop complaining about arenanet supposedly favoring pvp scene. these are just lies i tell you, lies!

arcanemacabre · Apr 12, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Saelfaer, are you sure you're playing the same game the rest of us are?

Ohhhh! Heh, I almost missed it, you seriously should add the [sarcasm] tags.

hubin_at · Apr 12, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone

Who the hell have time to wait for mesmer to degen 1 monster at a time, or to even shutdown the monsters. Shaming the monsters, Diversion their skills? LoL. They even nerfed energy surge to nearby effect, decreasing the viablity of mesmer PVE. For PVE ... time spent in killing > everything else

My PVE mesmer uses fast cast nuking, with MoR to get into groups. Or simply so that i can kill faster. its sad when such a elegant class got seriously nerfed by anet... now this class is deemed to be pvp viable, pve worthless.

Actually, I find Mesmers quite playable in PvE. There are several nice "indirect" damage spells like Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Images of Remorse, etc. which deal moderate, armor-ignoring damage with relatively quick recharge.

Ecklipze · Apr 12, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Personally, I think the regular skill balances/changes are a good thing for the game, it prevents the same old skills always being used for play over and over again, and gives players a chance to actually be creative (shock horror!) and look for alternative skill combinations and methods of play which they can use.

Bankai · Apr 12, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I agree with 1 and 2. But not with 3.

With a very good inspiration line, you get monks with a lot of energy, just like with the IMBA EF. The only way to kill monks with such energy is either by spiking, which makes an extremely boring and stupid metagame, or by applying a huge load of pressure in a short time (which is a lot like spike; however, instead of using reaction time, you use skill recharge to force kills). Normal pressure builds like conditions have very little chance to do stuff in a metagame with monks with too much energy.

Saelfaer: There are some skills that are unusable until they're overpowered. For example, this skill:
Ash blast
5e/ 1c/ 8r
Target foe is struck for 20...48 earth damage. If Ash Blast strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Blinded for 3...13 seconds.

This skill is utter crap. It will never be usable unless:
-The blind applies to all nearby foes
-It doesn't need KD
-It has 1/4 casting time and does double damage

The only thing ANet will think of are the 2 last options, which quite frankly suck. So tell me: Would you ever take Ash blast?

tomcruisejr · Apr 12, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecklipze

Personally, I think the regular skill balances/changes are a good thing for the game, it prevents the same old skills always being used for play over and over again, and gives players a chance to actually be creative (shock horror!) and look for alternative skill combinations and methods of play which they can use.

But regular balances are shit. Having almost the same build in both of the party is shit and is making the game stale. Having a single dominating meta is shit. I don't want Guild Wars to be played like chess or like boxing or like scrabble, where only "skill" (LOL - maybe experience yep) matters . I want it to be like Ultimate Fighting Championships wherein different martial arts are showcased and are used by different people to combat other people. A creative arena is where you see different builds being played. A creative arena is Build Wars where in the skill is defined as finding counters or way to win even when you're handicapped or the build you use is meant to lose against the other team's.

Bio-Flame · Apr 12, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I think that the OP's point was (and everyone is failing to see it) is that *sometimes* ANET does not allow the metagame to regulate itself.

The feeling I have as a player is something that I got during my last years of Magic the Gathering:

There's a "broken" card (broken build in GWs) ---> DESTROY IT
then, the NEXT BEST THING appears and gets used a lot ----> DESTROY IT
then, the third best thing appears and gets used a lot -----> DESTROY IT

While I over-exagerating, my point (and the OP's) still stands: the reason to nerf a skill should NOT be the amount of people using it.

wilebill · Apr 12, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

ANet's game balancing has been more reactive (nerfs) than proactive (buffing the counters); that's what's got us where we are now -- which is where we do not want to be.

And especially where ANet doesn't want to be when trying to whip up excitement and probably investment for GW 2.

moriz · Apr 12, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

things will be nerfed. buffing the counters simply won't result in balance because you absolutely MUST have skill x to counter skill y, and skill x is useless if you don't see skill y. the game will then become a big game of chance. if you have the right counters, you win. if not, you lose. that in itself limits build creativity and is imbalanced.

what anet is trying to promote is a DIVERSE metagame, where you can go in with a number of build types and still have reasonable chances of winning no matter what your opponents bring. if there must be counters, then they must be flexible counters. example being: deny hexes and sig of devotion. both skills used in as a combo is fairly good against hex spam, and are individually useful if you don't fight against hexes. that's where the game must go to promote a healthy metagame.

Saphatorael · Apr 12, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

That has got to be the longest and best worded whine ever. When you create, develop, and publish the perfect game, let everyone know. they'll beat a path to your door.

You, sir. You deserve a cookie! You've won this thread.

Batou of Nine · Apr 12, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Well, i agree with about 50% of what the OP has to say. I do not agree that Anet doesn't know what they are doing. They DO do the research, study the statistics AND they listen to their player base. All that should be obvious to us already through their constant responses to multiple GW Fan Forums. But i DO agree that they need to take a step back and let the metagame (oh no! trendy word! PFFFfffTTttt) mature in its own right. I agree that nerfing a skill because the amount of people using it constituting the FoTM is not the right reason. By dumning down that skill right away, people are given hardly ANY time at all to create reliable counters to any FOTM. In turn, the metagame will be stuck in this circle of FOTM, nerf, new FOTM, nerf, etc etc...

If a metagame is not allowed to mature and evolve according to the PLAYER BASE and THEIR creative builds, then an official metagame will never (and currently doesn't) exist. Someone mentioned that games like GW are expected to change and evolve...yes i agree. But it should evolve according to the player base, NOT according to what the company wants to to play.

Ya, sure. It's their game, and officially their right to do whatver they want. However, if they do not allow a healthy metagame to evolve straight from the player base... the game health will exponentially degrade over time.... scary thought, that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I think that the OP's point was (and everyone is failing to see it) is that *sometimes* ANET does not allow the metagame to regulate itself.

...

While I over-exagerating, my point (and the OP's) still stands: the reason to nerf a skill should NOT be the amount of people using it.

Agreed. People are saying the OP and those that agree with him do not have the right to say they know wahts best for the game. Umm, yes we do. We are the player base. We have direct influence on the game, what changes occur, what Anet chooses to change and are the SOLE support that keeps the game going. Yes. We do have the right. It doesn't mean we truely know whats best, but we sure as hell have the right to state our opinions about it.

The Metagame is one of those things that many veteran gamers have relatively good ideas about. Hence, the reflection about FoTM, Nerfs, Buffs and overall Anet updates.

Finally, again, i both agree and disagree with teh OP. I disagree concerning Anet. Anet should NOT be discredited concerning all updates. Gaile Gray, is proof in itself that they listen. From that i guarantee they do the research, analysis and careful consideration of player opinions when it comes to game changes. Then at the same time i agree with teh OP that if nerfs/buffs to skills happen to frequently, the metagame never matures or evolves for the player base to really make their own. Sure, FoTM builds will dominate for a few weeks, but if the players are given time before a nerf, they will (and have) figure out counters, more effective builds, and other more creative ideas...

Just my 2 cents. Player base should shape the metagame (period).
cheers.

TabascoSauce · Apr 12, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

So what can we do to promote the ideas in this thread and keep it alive? We all seem to be in agreement, which tends to make threads short. I would hate to see it vanish into the mists, because the message is pretty important.

As in, the future of the game important.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

truemyths · Apr 12, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I think all the forum feedback is clear. Mesmers need fixing. They need the "buff" bat.

So... "watcha gonna do ANET? The mesmer community train is running wild on you" :P

Gaile, anyone? (anferpetessake don't say GW2)

Secondly, it really feels like we're moving much too fast with nerfs... I mean you tip the scales and they tip the other way so you tip again and they tip the other way ad naseum. More imbalance is being created than anything else.

A lot of these so-called "overpowered" skills simply need more time for pvp folks to absorb and come up with a counter. And why did Mesmers get the bat when (I think) Touch Rangers get free rein? The feedback that I saw from ANET on touchers was... "there are skills to counter touchers". Crikes, want to counter a mesmer... try laying on spell shield or similar.

Sometimes it feels like everything should just go back to the original way it was. Balance the meta game by adding new skills. I semi-agree with the fact that you can't have counters individual to specific skills (um, "can't touch this"), but with the right thought I don't think new skills will cause that.

Shmanka · Apr 12, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So what can we do to promote the ideas in this thread and keep it alive? We all seem to be in agreement, which tends to make threads short. I would hate to see it vanish into the mists, because the message is pretty important.

As in, the future of the game important.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Primarily, I would say list skills that are completely unused in PvP. Even the ones that got nerfed/buffed and still have no purpose. in PvP Skill Discussion I attempt to bring a little light and creativity into underpowered/limited useful skills. The thread is called "You fix the skill!" not the best thread but its mine

Essentially after gvg's and observer mode I take a look at skills that are not used, ever and see if people can come up with something to make them playable, but not broken.

We have hundreds of skills to work with, and it's horrible every day on observer mode when you can only name 50-100 being used if your life depends on it.

Take a look at skills that are not used, change them mechanically/buff them. Some of the skills will always be horrible utility yet thats what utility skills are mostly... horrible.

Renegade26 · Apr 12, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetris L

Disclaimer: The following rant is not mostly directed towards Captain Robo, but to all the "Izzy wannabes" out there.
________________________

I'm so tired of people flashing trendy terms ("metagame", "nerf", "imba", ...) without really grasping the meaning, and trying to tell ANet how to "properly balance" the game when they are usually heavily biased towards their own preferred playstyle (PvE/PvP), biased towards their preferred profession and their beloved skills. They usually see only a very small portion of the game themselves, usually high-end PvP.

ANet is neutral, they don't favor any profession or build. Their objective is the overall good of the game, to keep it fun for veterans and casual players alike, PvP and PvE alike. They have access to all statistic data, can observe people playing, talk to many people, including experienced alpha/beta testers , read forums, ... When they change a skill they have to consider the impact on all areas of the game, consider the interaction with more than 1200 other skills, plus a few monster skills. You think that's easy? You seriously think you can do a better job at balancing the game than them? I dare you, try just one single balance update, and I bet you'd fail miserably. *) All hell would break loose on forums with people whining about the things you "nerfed" and complaining than you "ruined the game".

[edit]*) Nice example here. LOL, classic.[/edit]

You sound like you know what you're talking about, and I also agree that people can't expect to be the best at skill balancing. But there are situations when people have good ideas that would be better than what Anet has put into the game, or ideas that would improve a skill fairly if that skill has not been touched before.

This challenge that you've clearly set for me (

), how many skills would it take for you to accept that I could do a better job of being creative and balancing than any of Anets updates?

Renegade26 · Apr 12, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Woops double post.