Curse

amish lifeguard · May 06, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

They support bots because there are lots of bot accounts? Even though they ban 2k a week, they still support them? Stop trying to bash Anet, you suck at it.

Chestnut · May 06, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Come on.. they don't really ban 2000 bots a week.. not when the same bots have been farming Citidel for 3 months stright.. lol.

HawkofStorms · May 06, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Those "limits on the trial accounts that the aren't on retail accounts" Galie mentioned is that trial accounts can't trade money with other people, nor can they drop money/items on the ground in explorable areas, therefore, it is now impossible to use trial accounts for botting since they can't transfer the money off of them (this was added in an update about a year ago).

**cosyfiep** · May 06, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

3 million....yes I was wondering about that when it was brought up a while back.

lets break it down....how many people have more than just one chapter??? Well I for one have all 3 chapters, that counts as 3 sales.....now how many people bought the regular version and upgraded to a ce? I have done that as well, another sale (got the ce for chptrs 2 and 3 to begin with)....how many people also got goty? I count in this one as well....so me, one person counts for 5 sales already.....
then how many people have multiple accounts?? One person has already mentioned 2 mule accounts.....

so when you get down to it, there are lots of sales but these are repeat customers.

another point that was brought up, how many of these sales are people still playing? I know of 2 people who got them, played for a bit and decided they didnt like it...so they are sales, but no longer playing. (yes this is another statistic....purchases vs current players).

ok so if 1/3 of the people playing have all three chapters .....nah, this is not allgebra class.....

so 3 million sales doesnt mean 3 million people (I think that returned copies may also be included in that number, but I may be wrong).....I would roughly guestimate half of the sales are to repeat customers so that less than 1.5 million (which has also been mentioned before)....then the bots.....which was the point of the thread....how many are bots.....thats another algebra problem!

w00t! · May 07, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chestnut

Come on.. they don't really ban 2000 bots a week.. not when the same bots have been farming Citidel for 3 months stright.. lol.

You're clearly a product of outcome based education.

Try do some simple math before you accuse Anet of lying. If they ban 2,000 bots per week, that is 0.067% of the installed user base. Seven one hundredths of one percent.

3 million copies of GW is 125,000 per month, so 8,000 / 125,000 = 6.4% of all new accounts activated each month (on average) are banned.

Doesn't sound like much of a stretch to me. I'm certain that they could ban more if they put more people on it, but given their other priorities (like upgrades, new releases, bug fixes, et cetera), I'm somewhat surprised that they ban that many.

Swift Thief · May 07, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chestnut

Heres the funny thing, 2 months ago I wrote down 30 names of the bots in the Citidel.. K, so I still have this list.. I went there this morning and saw atleats 10 of the same names on my list... still.. and the same gender and color tattos as well.. .. so.. that 2000 bots a week thing? why lie? the same bots have been botting the citdel for about 3 or 4 months now.

If you were smart, you should have reported the names of those characters to ArenaNet saying they are bots. ANet usually only bans bots if you report them geez...

Engel the Fallen · May 07, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoChance

however, even if it were 100,000 bot accounts banned, that's about 3% of total sales. and like you say, considering all the bots not banned, it looks like a surprisingly large percentage of sales are to bots!

What this means then, is when changes to the game are made to stop botting and their profits, 97% of the players are basically punished and have their drops and ways of farming effected because of this 3%.

MegaMouse · May 07, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

A lot of good and bad are coming out of this post. But I am not here to chastize anyone just to add my 2 cents worth. At several times I have seen scores of bots in various areas. A-Net and NC-Soft try their best to catch them but fail due to the fact that thney cannot be everywhere all the time. There are a limited number of GM's of which I have only ever actualy seen 1 in the 2+ years I have been playing. I currently have 2 accounts that i check in on a semi regular basis (I moved to WoW because GW is not fun anymore),but even getting online like I do I still see many bots especialy in Elona Reach and the other desert towns. I personaly would like to know how many active accounts there ae still, finding them out would be easy as each time a person logs in it is recorded in the data base.

Mega Mouse

Gaile Gray · May 07, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

So why not kick your people in the face until they let us (finally) to change our USERNAMES on our accounts, which has always been a HUGE security flaw.

What a revelation.

EDIT: No Gaile, I don't REALLY expect you to ever listen to us on this.

Oh, but I do listen to you, and in fact, I could not agree with you more! I am experiencing a growing embarrassment over the fact that we have not made the needed changeto allow user name modification, which is a change that was promised (to us, to you) months ago. It's totally out of ArenaNet's hands, but we continue to ask, continue to press for a resolution, and--although it is indeed not something over which we have control--continue to apologize for the matter and ask your forgiveness for not having this yet in place.

However, keep in mind that having a user name is only one piece of information, and that will never, ever allow access to an account. It is, more often, the easily-guessed password or the foolishly-shared access by a "friend" or the unwisely downloaded program with "bonus gift" in the form of a keylogger that gives away the account lock, stock, and barrel.

I'm not arguing that you should not be able to change your user name--not at all! However, knowing a user name does not, ever, provide the sole means by which an accout is stolen, so we should be sure to keep that in perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chestnut

Heres the funny thing, 2 months ago I wrote down 30 names of the bots in the Citidel.. K, so I still have this list.. I went there this morning and saw atleats 10 of the same names on my list... still.. and the same gender and color tattos as well.. .. so.. that 2000 bots a week thing? why lie? the same bots have been botting the citdel for about 3 or 4 months now.

PM me the list. I personally dealt with more than 50 today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engel the Fallen

What this means then, is when changes to the game are made to stop botting and their profits, 97% of the players are basically punished and have their drops and ways of farming effected because of this 3%.

Hmmm... where did you get that percentage? No matter. What if I told you that your "3%" was negatively affecting the economy by a power of 10 or 20 for the remainder of the player base? The important issue is not how many bot -- what matters is how much harm those who do bot are inflicting upon the economy!

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Hey Gaile, whats the possibility of giving players "Monster Summoning Items"?

You know, so we can go to Granite and summon mursaat to kill those bots (or afkers...or just anyone in general) in town

Wont stop em, but hey it'll be funny as hell and would certainly RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up their macro.

Ulivious The Reaper · May 07, 2007, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hmmm... where did you get that percentage? No matter. What if I told you that your "3%" was negatively affecting the economy by a power of 10 or 20 for the remainder of the player base? The important issue is not how many bot -- what matters is how much harm those who do bot are inflicting upon the economy!

Just letting you know Gaile, but more than 100% of all statistics are made up on the spot

And yes, guild wars has sold over 9000 copies!

Guardian of the Light · May 07, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hey Gaile, whats the possibility of giving players "Monster Summoning Items"?

You know, so we can go to Granite and summon mursaat to kill those bots (or afkers...or just anyone in general) in town

Wont stop em, but hey it'll be funny as hell and would certainly RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up their macro.

LOL that would be funny

Random Monster summoning to ruin the days of bots would make my day.

Alderin · May 07, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

You're clearly a product of outcome based education.

Try do some simple math before you accuse Anet of lying. If they ban 2,000 bots per week, that is 0.067% of the installed user base. Seven one hundredths of one percent.

3 million copies of GW is 125,000 per month, so 2,000 / 125,000 = 1.6% of all new accounts activated each month (on average) are banned.

Doesn't sound like much of a stretch to me. I'm certain that they could ban more if they put more people on it, but given their other priorities (like upgrades, new releases, bug fixes, et cetera), I'm somewhat surprised that they ban that many.

"You're clearly a product of outcome based education."

"Try to do some simple math before you" speak. So lets assume that all 3 million copies are not merged so that your statistic of "If they ban 2,000 bots per week, that is 0.067% of the installed user base" holds true . Thats breaks down to 125,000 accounts a month as you stated. Now this is where you messed up.

" 3 million copies of GW is 125,000 per month, so 2,000 / 125,000 = 1.6% of all new accounts activated each month (on average) are banned. "

That should read as "3 million copies of GW is 125,000 per month, so (4 * 2,000) / 125,000 = 6.4% of all new accounts activated each month (on average) are banned."

So that 6.4% is just the bots that are supposedly banned where as many are not even caught each month.

Guardian of the Light · May 07, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

To sum up the bot problem...

Ulivious The Reaper · May 07, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

To sum up the bot problem...

Yeah, pretty much, i think the addition of hard mode and the supposed loot scaling was a good job on Anets part, they can't afford to hire more people to deal with the bot problem, so they fix it the way they can with their current resources, real intellectual of them i honestly think

Angel's Sorrow · May 07, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chestnut

Heres the funny thing, 2 months ago I wrote down 30 names of the bots in the Citidel.. K, so I still have this list.. I went there this morning and saw atleats 10 of the same names on my list... still.. and the same gender and color tattos as well.. .. so.. that 2000 bots a week thing? why lie? the same bots have been botting the citdel for about 3 or 4 months now.

Why lie? Exactly. That's the million dollar question. Not to mention Gaile's answer about bots using trial keys and stolen accounts was a bit hard to swallow as explained before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

PM me the list. I personally dealt with more than 50 (bots) today.

Ooh oh! What did you do? Did you slap their booties and tell them to move to another area where they can happily farm and remain undetected?

lol...sorry couldn't resist.

Hyper.nl · May 07, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Banning is not the solution against the bots. Banning is a last resort when technical measures fail to enforce fair gameplay.

I experienced the issues first hand as admin/owner of a small Unreal server. A certain percentage of the players will always try to find ways around the rules. Sure, you can ban them but they will continue to come back, or just be replaced by others who try the same.

The only way to deal with bots and cheaters that works is by technical measures: A secure design together by software tools that detect and kick (not ban) possible bots. At least I was able to keep my own game server bot free by using the right software.

ANet already did a good job with the base design of the game, but their measures are getting more and more shortcoming nowadays. GW really needs an additional anti-bot, one that keeps being updated like the antibots of the major FPS games.

Of course, I understand like no other that it is way more easy to say to 'make a game bot-proof' than to actually program it that way, but it's really the only solution.

ogre-mage · May 07, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Oh, but I do listen to you, and in fact, I could not agree with you more! I am experiencing a growing embarrassment over the fact that we have not made the needed changeto allow user name modification, which is a change that was promised (to us, to you) months ago. It's totally out of ArenaNet's hands, but we continue to ask, continue to press for a resolution, and--although it is indeed not something over which we have control--continue to apologize for the matter and ask your forgiveness for not having this yet in place.

See, I actually was aware of the fact that NCsoft was in control of that, and that's who I was talking about kicking in the face. I don't really blame Anet, and you assuring us it is being worked on is appreciated.

Gaile... you've rather suprised me today. That's the first 'you don't listen' comment I've ever seen you respond to. I know it's not possible to communicate with EVERYone, but when communication does happen between Anet and the community, productivity always flourishes. I really hope that this mutual issue for both the gamers and the developers will be sorted out soon, and if there's anything we (the community) can do (go to Korea and commit mass-suicide outside of NCsoft HQ, for example), I think many of us would like to.

Quote:

However, keep in mind that having a user name is only one piece of information, and that will never, ever allow access to an account. It is, more often, the easily-guessed password or the foolishly-shared access by a "friend" or the unwisely downloaded program with "bonus gift" in the form of a keylogger that gives away the account lock, stock, and barrel.
I'm not arguing that you should not be able to change your user name--not at all! However, knowing a user name does not, ever, provide the sole means by which an accout is stolen, so we should be sure to keep that in perspective.

I'm more than aware, I assure you. That's the exact reason why UN changes are needed, to help harden the "puzzle", and protect the users.

Also, did you just compare our game accounts to guns? O_o

P.S. Can we expect to see an update on Soul Reaping soon?
(just thought I'd throw that in there if I, indeed, have you attention.

)

Lydz · May 07, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Frankly it's none of our business. ANet know what they are doing (and it's obviously working because they've been very successful) so find something else to moan about as usual. Man am I getting sick of the whining that keeps going on. Instead of simply enjoying the game people SEARCH for things wrong with it just for the fun of starting a topic about it...

Alas Poor Yorick · May 07, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

You know, this whole bot problem reminds me of the time I took a tour of a newly built prison. Everyone was really impressed with the security until one of the guards said, "Don't be so impressed - a prisoner will escape from here within the first 2 years of the prison's opening." He went on to explain that the designers and guards only have 8 hours a day each to figure out how to keep the prisoners in. And during that 8 hours they have to accomplish other tasks also. So they have very little time each day to concentrate wholly on keeping the prisoners in the prison. The prisoners, however, have 24 hour 7 days a week to figure out how to get out. "At some point," he said, "some prisoner will figure a way to get out of any prison."

The point is, no matter what you do, those who use bots will figure a way out of the system. They will change their tactics to adjust for changes in drops or AI. One way or another they will figure it out because they can make money that way.

No matter what you do, they will still have the same impact on the economy - you can change the total amount of gold entering the system and thus create deflation. But the bot users will still bring in the same proportion of that gold as they did before. If they were bringing in 10% before the loot scaling, they will continue to bring in 10% after the loot scaling - even if the total amount of gold has been reduced.

If you can do it, detecting and kicking bots is probably the best bet to reduce their impact. But changing the whole economy to deal with the bots is rather like putting the whole of society in prison to deal with the criminals. It just doesn't work.