Curse

Master Ketsu · May 03, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I dont care what anet does as long as the following 3 things still exist in GW2:

1.) MTG style metagame and skill balance/combo's is kept in place. This is by far most important aspect from gw1 that must be carried over to gw2. If anet kiddifies GW by dumbing down the skill combos and gameplay to ridiculous simplicity like wow and lineage, needless to say I will not be buying GW2.

2. ) Ability to create PVP max characters. Players who want to play the game and enjoy pvp but due to little things like Job/bills/real life dont have the time to grind...shouldn't have to grind.

3.) Instant Map travel. goes hand in hand with PVP chars - no grinding. there is no reason players should have to waste 30 minutes walking to wherever their friends are to meet up for a mission.

Bryant Again · May 03, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

i dont think that Foxbat is correct as i have not seen even a hint of enemy scaling mentioned in any preview or interview.

So because it hasn't been in any preview so far, he's wrong?

Damos · May 03, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

A big part of the reason I've stuck with Guild Wars for so long and stopped playing WoW after a month is that GW isn't about grinding. Those quests in Wow where you had to kill 10 dragons and 15 snakes for no reason other than to gain some XP bored the crap out of me. The great thing about GW is that it's not about how high your level is, but how skillful and smart a player you and your teammates are. I would really hate it if GW2 became filled with WoW style quests, and wonder how they're going to maintain grinding-less gameplay with a much higher level cap. I'm willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt because I'm sure that they're aware that the skills-based, no grind system is one of the key attractions of GW.

unmatchedfury · May 03, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Personally I'd be happy if the levels are like Diablo 2 in PvE, PvE is about fealing powerful. ITs about SMASHING S*** Your nto there for "balanced" play, your not there to test your intelligence. Thats why Diablo 2 was so fun. When you pressed a button things happened, s*** exploded! PvP is were ballance and intellegence should be put. GW already has a great PvP system in place for the most part. WIth some appropriate balancing of skills it can be great in GW2.

BUt lets not use PvP to hold Back PvE. AI is always abuseable. And in the end humans> AI. NO way around it. SO make PvE about having everyone pwn and make World PvP for newer folks and for older folks looking to gank some innocents. Seriously who doesnt like getting a higher level alt and teaching that noob what for. THeres a reason Diablo was so popular and it wasn't because you had balanced 1 vs. 1 duels with super AI monsters.

Loviatar · May 03, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

So because it hasn't been in any preview so far, he's wrong?

if i had made a flat he is wrong statement instead of a clearly stated this is my opinion as in *i dont think he is right*i could see your responding that way.

Bryant Again · May 03, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

if i had made a flat he is wrong statement instead of a clearly stated this is my opinion as in *i dont think he is right*i could see your responding that way.

Well why do you think that would be a wrong idea, then? You stated that "I don't think he's correct as I haven't seen it in any preview or interview." That's not enough logical justification that he could be wrong.

Loviatar · May 03, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

Well why do you think that would be a wrong idea, then? You stated that "I don't think he's correct as I haven't seen it in any preview or interview." That's not enough logical justification that he could be wrong.

my apologies for the misunderstanding.

i thought that the sidekick systen to raise the player to the level the buddy was playing precluded that.

if the monsters scaled there would not be a need for the strong sidekick system.

that was what i was basing it on.

lots of sidekick to raise nothing about scaling down to match the player.

cheers

cce · May 03, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

PvE is about fealing powerful.
... SO make PvE about having everyone pwn and make . Seriously who doesnt like getting a higher level alt and teaching that noob what for.

This perfectly encapsulates what I like about Guild Wars, and what I don't like about its competitors. It is also why I won't buy GW2 if it has inequalities that interfere with regular PUG formation.

What I like about Guild Wars is the level playing field that people are at. You don't get "invited" to a party based solely on your level (or lack there-of). It's the maximum level in that regard that made me really enjoy Prophecies, at least in post-ascension. Before then, the "level" part routinely got to me, especially where people just can't find parties due to their level or where everything is *fine* until someone realizes one of the people is level 18 instead of 20. This stuff was truly the worst part of Guild Wars.

It just isn't necessary to get "more" powerful by killing monsters.

I don't mind people getting "gold and property" in the game that they can show-off. That's fine. What I don't want is that time spent == your ability to do well. With the latest chapter, Nightfall, we're very much touching this problem. There a groups where you *have* to be a LB5++ in order to get a group. Before HM, the only place people did PvE was in Anguish, Underworld, and Fissure.

I'm even OK with "perfect" weapons being out-of-touch for the average player, so long as the "good" weapons are only 1-3% less effective. What I don't want to see is N factors, each making you 1-3% less effective so that what you toon is wearing, what insignia its earned, and what level you're in comes out to make a significant difference. In GW2, if people don't let you in due to your level, after 2-3 weeks of casual play... it will be a problem.

VegJed · May 08, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Key there is enemies automatically scaling to match you. Which I would imagine GW2 must do to some degree if they want it to remain soloable without henchies.

Although Loviatar has pointed out some reasons that scaling probably won't be used in GW2, I feel like mentioning that Oblivion's scaling really turned me off for a while. The reason for this was that being a thief, I attempted the thieves guild quests first, priding myself on my ability to get through situations while avoiding combat, due to my good Sneak/Speechcraft/Security skills. At this point, I was assuming that the system was like Morrowind, and didn't realize there was level scaling. Unfortunately, Oblivion, while advertising that it improved stealth-based techniques around combat, has some situations where combat is required (Example: I fell asleep in that floating tavern, since it was the best deal around. Open the door in the morning, find a guy standing out there, try to talk my way out of it, get attacked and killed). Since I had gained levels purely on the stealth skills, while all other characters leveled up combat skills, I wasn't able to kill anything. Had to delete that character.

Anyways, that was really off-topic, so I'll try to post something to contribute to the discussion. I really liked how Guild Wars had a low level cap. Part of it was that, since I joined with Factions, I only had to unlock a few skills before I could kill people in PvP, and Guild Wars even provided pre-made templates for characters. Granted, GW2 is UAX for PvP, so the playing field is even more balanced for newer players (at least, I think Gaile said that at some point). Another thing I liked, which I doubt they'll change for GW2, is that you had to strategize and figure out your build before battle. As I said, I highly doubt they'll change this, but I've seen some posts saying "When I'm high-level, I want to be able to switch my axe for my sword whenever I want, not have to change attributes in towns." Guild Wars made it so that, even when you reached the cap, you had to think before you play, rather than bringing in all of your unlocked skills to use at any time.

carribus · May 08, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

Personally I'd be happy if the levels are like Diablo 2 in PvE, PvE is about fealing powerful. ITs about SMASHING S*** Your nto there for "balanced" play, your not there to test your intelligence. Thats why Diablo 2 was so fun. When you pressed a button things happened, s*** exploded! PvP is were ballance and intellegence should be put. GW already has a great PvP system in place for the most part. WIth some appropriate balancing of skills it can be great in GW2.

I'm an almost exclusive PvE player, and I have to disagree with you saying that PvE is not about testing your intelligence etc... I like the fact that I have the freedom to be creative and attempt to create a build of 8 skills that will solo a particular area. Does this not classify as using intelligence against PvE?

ogre-mage · May 08, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Personally, I'm not interested at all in the idea of a "cap-less" level system. That will only be a mechanic for massive grind, and the inability to never really be able to "complete" a character. One of the biggest interests I have in an MMo is to have 'completed' characters. In GW, I already have 11 PvE characters. All besides my perma-pre have at least 1 set of 15k (3 have FoW) armor, a series of powerful weapons specific to them, Every elite and skill for their primary profession, and have completed each campaign w/ ALL outposts, towns and such unlocked.

I don't want a game where I can never reach a maximum, because then creating new characters will be no fun for me.

[quote=I don't want to see some level 100 fighting level 50 mobs[/quote]

They'll try to fix the problem you see in normal MMos (massive level characters farming the lower-level bosses and such) with the inclusion (but not dominance) of instanced combat. Though I still expect to see LOADS more persistence than instancing.

I want the level cap to be either 50, or 100. Nothing in between (at first).
I come from a history of playing Anarchy Online (where the max level is OVER 200), and let me tell you the experience is so dreadfully boring you may suffer brain damage (I experience occasional psychotic episodes) from the drag of reaching max-level.

If they start at 50, and add a few levels per expansion, I will be fine with that.

bamm bamm bamm · May 08, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegJed

Although Loviatar has pointed out some reasons that scaling probably won't be used in GW2, I feel like mentioning that Oblivion's scaling really turned me off for a while.

I don't think they'll use it as default in an online game. It sounds more like a better hard mode, so that's how I would imagine it being used. If you want to go back and visit noob island without it being a cakewalk, switch on hard mode and it scales up to your current level (bearing in mind GW2 will have a much higher cap, or none at all). Those River Skale Tads will give XP again.

It's one way of solving the issue people have brought up of areas becoming irrelevant as the player progresses without a low cap of 20. Hard mode can't be one uniform difficulty when none of the players are at a uniform level ceiling.

Lonesamurai · May 08, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damos

A big part of the reason I've stuck with Guild Wars for so long and stopped playing WoW after a month is that GW isn't about grinding. Those quests in Wow where you had to kill 10 dragons and 15 snakes for no reason other than to gain some XP bored the crap out of me. The great thing about GW is that it's not about how high your level is, but how skillful and smart a player you and your teammates are. I would really hate it if GW2 became filled with WoW style quests, and wonder how they're going to maintain grinding-less gameplay with a much higher level cap. I'm willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt because I'm sure that they're aware that the skills-based, no grind system is one of the key attractions of GW.

Ahh, but thats the beauty of what has been said so far... as the lvl cap won't mean much in GW2 and if your doing a high end area with people of different lvl's then they just sidekick the lower lvl'd people to get them ready for it...

And as there won't be any ganking in the game, and pvp will only happen down in the mists (going on what has been said so far) then i doubt that there will be as much e-peen stroking as other games, and most will probably stay strong to thier current guilds aswell, meaning you'll have a base of players you know to play with as and when you want to play

Bryant Again · May 08, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

I agree that the sidekick system is going to be pretty sweet. I think it'll be pretty cool to just run into a low level new player who says "hay can i join with u" and be all like "Sure!" Then proceed to kick ass all over the area.

Still need to see how it's going to fully operate, though.

At Loviatar, about sidekick system and monster scaling: Maybe like...first the player scales to your level, then the monsters scale to your level as well to provide a challenge. It would kinda make sense, I guess. I'll have to think up a lore-related reason later on in the day. Just an idea, really.

Lonesamurai · May 08, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I agree that the sidekick system is going to be pretty sweet. I think it'll be pretty cool to just run into a low level new player who says "hay can i join with u" and be all like "Sure!" Then proceed to kick ass all over the area.

yeah, hopefully it will bring the Co-operative and social aspect back to the game

however, we all know we're gonna get those nubs that want to slap people around and gank (its really annoying me in EvE Online and other MMO's), but at least i'll be safe from it in GW2

Domino · May 08, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

See, I'm quite conflicted on this issue.... it's really quite sad

Part of me loves the fact that Guild Wars isn't really about grinding that level. Getting to level 20 isn't *so* easy that it's unremarkable, and yet is more than doable for college students/people with limited time schedules.

another... darker side of me... feels a little disappointed every time my level 20 peep gets that big flash of light around him, and all that changes is another skill point. I still get a tingly feeling when I hear that "level up" ding. I want to keep growing my character, in a slightly more meaningful way than just grinding for a title.

My only fear is that a system like this is just a playground for discrimination in pugs. Granted, I have an awesome guild, and haven't pug'd a mission in months.... but I can just see someone getting kicked from a group simply because they're level 44, and everyone else is level 47.

Unlimited level seems like a really silly idea... I don't want to see a level 400 person running around. This isn't Dragonball Z, folks. Level should be a realistic and balanced represenation of your character's progress.

I'm not going to pass judgement though. I think one of A-net's fundamental mentalities with Guild Wars is "skill over grind" and I think they will come up with a system that is pleasing to both sides.

Lonesamurai · May 08, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

See, I'm quite conflicted on this issue.... it's really quite sad

Part of me loves the fact that Guild Wars isn't really about grinding that level. Getting to level 20 isn't *so* easy that it's unremarkable, and yet is more than doable for college students/people with limited time schedules.

another... darker side of me... feels a little disappointed every time my level 20 peep gets that big flash of light around him, and all that changes is another skill point. I still get a tingly feeling when I hear that "level up" ding. I want to keep growing my character, in a slightly more meaningful way than just grinding for a title.

My only fear is that a system like this is just a playground for discrimination in pugs. Granted, I have an awesome guild, and haven't pug'd a mission in months.... but I can just see someone getting kicked from a group simply because they're level 44, and everyone else is level 47.

Unlimited level seems like a really silly idea... I don't want to see a level 400 person running around. This isn't Dragonball Z, folks. Level should be a realistic and balanced represenation of your character's progress.

I'm not going to pass judgement though. I think one of A-net's fundamental mentalities with Guild Wars is "skill over grind" and I think they will come up with a system that is pleasing to both sides.

Pugs?

hasn't it already been stated aswell that team ups are going to work very differently and its not been decided on party sizes or if there are even going to be parties like we have in GW

this does also raise another point that i believe people are getting worried about and thats the worry that some have that there is going to be this level of discrimination... Yes, it is there, it happens in WoW and EvE Online to a horrible extent, and other games aswell, but from what has been said and what most of us have so far read about GW2, i can't see this being an issue as there won't be any ganking or pvp outside of the mists and any lvl discrimination will just show someones personal stupidity as a player... I know that i'll be enforcing my no discrimination rules for my guild, as i already do, but most of my guys are already looking forward to it for the simple fact that they can get on and play in a persistant world without fear o other players ruining what they've done at an opportune moment (boss camping, ganking, etc)

Domino · May 08, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I agree that the sidekick system is going to be pretty sweet. I think it'll be pretty cool to just run into a low level new player who says "hay can i join with u" and be all like "Sure!" Then proceed to kick ass all over the area.

There's a word for that though. It's called twinking

Xeeron · May 08, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Including any level differences that are meaningful (unlike our titles, which have close to 0 effect on the gameplay) will lead to horrible level discrimination. Ever tried getting into a HA group at rank0? Ever seen people kicking others who do not have a level X sunspear rank in DoA? It would be like this, just much worse.

- Xeeron

Tarun · May 08, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Finally something good will happen to Guild Wars. Shame it's in GW2 but at least that means the game will be a lot better than GW1.